Afro Samurai isn't Anime

[SarahofBorg]

I wanna see this only cause of Sam Jackson.


Even if enligsh spoken VA in anime gives me the creeps.

It isn't techniquely anime, it's made for American TV and I don't think it's ever going to show on Japanese TV. This is not a dub.

I can't wait. Been waiting for years.

[psi29a]

I wanna see this only cause of Sam Jackson.


Even if enligsh spoken VA in anime gives me the creeps.

It isn't techniquely anime, it's made for American TV and I don't think it's ever going to show on Japanese TV. This is not a dub.

I can't wait. Been waiting for years.

Technically it is, quoting the wikipedia:

Within Japan, the term anime is used to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.

and

Anime is often influenced by Japanese comics known as manga

Which I agree with in this case because the style itself is distincively Japanese.

However, I'm sure the purists will complain and here I've cited the American Heritage Dictionary.

A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex.

I agree that the style originated in Japan but I find this definition to be a better description, taken from the Random House Unabridged Dictionary.

a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, charaacterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, and sexuality and violence.

Afro Samuri uses the distinctive Japanese style of animation, while not being Japanese in creation itself. It stands to reason that Afro Samuri qualifies as Anime just as "Walt Disney Animation Studio of Japan" of which made "The Return of Jafar" and "Aladdin and the King of Thieves" while created in Japan is not anime.

[Fuji Nagase]

however, i think it is more widely used knowledge that anime referrs to animation directly from japan. eventhough it is still technically anime, and has a heavy japanese style to it, many wouldn't say its the kind of anime to be grouped with, say, berserk, perfect blue, gto, ect.

[psi29a]

however, i think it is more widely used knowledge that anime referrs to animation directly from japan.

There is a problem with that because the 'more widely used knowledge' is that which is in dictionary and encyclopedias, not just one source or a group of sources but common ground in all sources you can get your hands on. (I by no means did an exaustive search myself because Proof by Exaustion was not necessary when Proof by Contradiction can be used on your post.)

Disney movies animated in Japan are not Anime, that being just one case of many that the definition of anime as 'animation directly from japan' is false.

Anime is a animation style, of Japanese origin that is heavly influenced by Manga.

The same could be said for VW's Jetta. Originated from Germany, correct but are as of 2004, being manufactured/assembled in Mexico. The VW 'spirit/soul' if you will, the German style (A4 Audi) is the same even if made in Mexico.

[Shaka Zulu]

If this is to be called to be called anime due to its anime style, then The Boondocks, Teen Titans and The futuristic cartoon network version of Batman should be too.

[psi29a]

If this is to be called to be called anime due to its anime style, then The Boondocks, Teen Titans and The futuristic cartoon network version of Batman should be too.

Some of you may cry and call foul, but if the shoe fits...

I'll concede points that indicate that those shows listed above are heavily influenced by the same style. At some point however, you do draw the line on if it still qualifies as Anime.

(Of special note, Batman was brought to Japan and has had his own Manga there for awhile, so it was only natural to see an Anime style batman appear on TV.)
sources:
http://www.absoluteanime.com/batman_the ... /index.htm

Batman: The Animated Series is not Japanese animation! It is a cartoon produced in the US. However, because it has a style that is strongly influenced by Japanese animation, I have decided to include it on this site.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclo ... hp?id=2265
http://www.absoluteanime.com/batman_beyond/index.htm

However, to say that anime is 'animation that comes from japan' is the same as saying that rednecks are 'white trash that comes from texas'. Sorry, but Anime can come from Germany just like rednecks that can be found in Bovaria (Germany to those that are geographically impared).

[ZombieToaster]

calling a cartoon that aint from japan anime is just stupid. as its just the japanese word for cartoon.

[Malvado]

Batman didn't look like anime to me. I guess we can't use multiple colors anymore....

those too aladdin movies have shit on the first one. Songs kick their ass up and down the street.

Also why do you care where it's at? I mean we could go on and on about how some of the x-men comics are supposed to go in the manga section because of a asian art style or whatever. Keep this topic about the wonders of Afro and samurai please.

[psi29a]

Done.

I'm just correcting people's misuse of the word anime. You just can't claim that anime is 'animation from japan'. That isn't fair to Disney, or is it fair to the style itself which while predomiently originating from Japan, there are many studios around the world that produces content using the same techniques and style.

Saying what is and isn't Anime is often subjective but make no mistake that it has influences.

[LordMune]

For all intents and purposeses, japanimation (or even 'manga movies' as it is supposedly sometimes known to the natives) == anime.

Because animu ^_^ otakus won't have it any other way.

If Afro Samurai has a japanese director and/or animation team, I'll call it anime.

[psi29a]

For all intents and purposeses, japanimation (or even 'manga movies' as it is supposedly sometimes known to the natives) == anime.

Your equality is flawed, not all japanese animation or (japanimation) is anime. As I cited above, the japanese arm of Disney produces Disney style animation by a team of... well you guessed it, Japanese.

If Afro Samurai has a japanese director and/or animation team, I'll call it anime.

If I replace Afro Samurai with Alladin, would you still call it anime? If no, then your definition is flawed. If yes, then we ascribe that anime is just short hand for animation.

However, according to wikipedia, the word Anime refers to all animation across the world. *grin* That is the Japanese definition at least.

The only way to get out of the pitfalls of this is to define anime as an animation/drawing style and technique that happened to originate in Japan rather than animation that can only be produced in Japan or by the Japanese.

[LordMune]

So... Moving Manga, Western Animation and Japan-produced Animation, then?

lol definition warz

[psi29a]

So... Moving Manga, Western Animation and Japan-produced Animation, then?

lol definition warz

Well, those don't really hit the nail on the head either.

Here is the litmus test.

Turn off the audio, and watch a random 30 min segment of say... Ninja Scroll (the movie), then watch Furi Kuri (FLCL), then watch Afro Samuri. You would come away with the feeling that they are similiar with dramatic style, flat appearance, big eyes. The techniques are very similiar.

Now compare that with Disney, Hanabarbara, Navana, etc.

Watch Heavy Metal, Rock & Rule, Lord of the Rings, Fire & Ice... typical 'Western Animation'.

The styles and techniques between those grouped above are distinct. There is even 'Voices of a Distant Star' and the recent Gundam CGI series (MS IGLOO) which are very progressive and exhibit non-anime qualities even though they are Japanese in origin.

I simply state that it is false to assume that animation from Japan is anime by default. I also say that it is false to say that only 'anime' comes from Japan.

[psi29a]

Anywho, pardon the double post but I felt the beating around the bush was enough.

To quote the wikipedia yet again...

Afro Samurai is a Japanese dōjinshi manga series, created by Takashi Okazaki, originally featured in the Nononhow dōjin magazine, which has adapted into an 5-episode anime television series, produced by Japanese animation studio GONZO, and set to air in November 2006.

The anime series is set to feature noted American actor Samuel L. Jackson as the voice of the titular character, as well as one of the co-producers, and will also feature Wu-Tang Clan member RZA as the provider of the original musical score.[1] The series has been slated for 5 episodes and is set to air across the United States across Spike TV and Japan on Fuji Television. The series has also been licensed for North American distribution by Funimation, whose first DVD release is planned for early 2007. In August 2005, Japan-based game developers Namco announced they would be releasing Afro Samurai-related video games across both Japan and America.[2]

So there you have it, Afro Samurai is based on manga in Japan and is being released both in Japan and the US at the same time, produced by GONZO. The US version is dubbed.

Boink! Right in the eye.

[Malvado]

I was going to bring that up but I thought it was in my original post.

Still the first aladdin had way better music.

[SarahofBorg]

Meh, OK I'm kind of wrong. Learned something new. How did this become it's own thread?

[Deathbringer]

Psi cleaned the thread and you were just the lucky poster.

[Fuji Nagase]

im not sure if i agree with you psi, but thanks for your input. different point of view but at least it has a backbone.

[swallow]

The same could be said for VW's Jetta. Originated from Germany, correct but are as of 2004, being manufactured/assembled in Mexico. The VW 'spirit/soul' if you will, the German style (A4 Audi) is the same even if made in Mexico.

Wishful thinking.

[Femto]

I didn't read this whole thread but I saw Disney mentioned and I'd like to add my two cents about outsourcing and stuff.

Every single 2D cartoon show created in America gets animated overseas, with the exceptions to the rule being Adult Swim shows (most of which have zero animation and/or use the more cost effective Flash) and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends (which also uses Flash, among other things), and any other show I may not be aware of.

Does that mean that Billy and Mandy, Justice League and Gargoyles are anime?

Of course not.

The one and only distinction between anime and regular cartoons is that anime comes from Japan. If there's a cartoon created in Japan with American sensibilities and visuals then it'd still be anime.

The fact that anime is stylistically different than other cartoons is not inherent in the fact that it's anime but in the fact that it comes from Japan, where that particular style is commonplace.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here.

I just worked for 16 hours.

[Finito]

Anime or cartoon, to me its just a way to classify them, its sometimes useful to classify them by those because american ones most of the time blows cock, but I prefer to simply classify them by good or bad animation.

[Malvado]

I love the songs "Prince Ali" and "You never had a friend like me". great works of art.

[psi29a]

So,(1) is Anime a style, (2) a style that can only originate from Japan (or with a team that is Japanese), (3) or just Japanese animation (japanimation).?

I have demonstrated above that (3) is false with the Disney example.

So it comes down to (1) and (2). The differences is that (1) can be mimicked by non Japanese which is true of many anime. For example, look at Studio Ironcat who have their original manga (yes these Americans and Canadians call it manga). If a group of animators wanted to animate their work in the same style as Japanese Anime, then is it also Anime?

(2) is what the purists want, I don't necessarily blame them, however it is bigotry to say that only a particular style can come from one geographical location OR can only come one 'race' of people. I use 'race' lightly to refer to those that are Japanese or those of Japanese decent.

(1) covers anime as a stylistic approach to animation in general with origins coming from France and Germany that evolved in Japan to what it is today. Which believe it or not is in almost all the definitions of Anime in our prestigous dictionaries and encylopedias.

(2) is an emotional felt, purist desire. I would call it plain 'ol bigotry.


*flame on*

I'm half serious because what I type is based on already standard definitions and fact, but I also know that it will be a slap in the face to purists. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true.

[Femto]

I have demonstrated above that (3) is false with the Disney example.

That's the root of the problem right there, your example with Return of Jafar demonstrates nothing.

Everything that has to do with Return of Jafar was done here in the US (script, storyboarding, palettes, character design, music, voice recording, post production, etc) except for the bulk animation, which is cheaper to do overseas. That's what happens with most animation here in the US, it gets oursourced to Asia.

It's like those TV series I mentioned. Justice League is not animated in the US, every episode is outsourced to various companies in Asia (Koko from Korea being one of them). Bruce Timm and co. create everything in an episode from the script to the storyboards, then ship those overseas and when they get the animation back, they tweak it and edit it until it's to their liking.

By looking at the credits in Return of Jafar, it's safe to assume that the exact same thing happened there.

That doesn't mean it's anime.

Anime IS animation that comes from Japan.

You're calling me a bigot but I just used a generalized example in regards to style. If you'd read the sentence before that, you would've seen that I specify that a Japanese cartoon that looks and feels entirely American would still be anime.

To look at it from the other side of the fence, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Teen Titans and Totally Spies are NOT anime, despite the stylistic similarities they share with it.

Just trust me on this one, psi.

[psi29a]

I have demonstrated above that (3) is false with the Disney example.

That's the root of the problem right there, your example with Return of Jafar demonstrates nothing.

Everything that has to do with Return of Jafar was done here in the US (script, storyboarding, palettes, character design, music, voice recording, post production, etc) except for the bulk animation, which is cheaper to do overseas. That's what happens with most animation here in the US, it gets oursourced to Asia.

It's like those TV series I mentioned. Justice League is not animated in the US, every episode is outsourced to various companies in Asia (Koko from Korea being one of them). Bruce Timm and co. create everything in an episode from the script to the storyboards, then ship those overseas and when they get the animation back, they tweak it and edit it until it's to their liking.

By looking at the credits in Return of Jafar, it's safe to assume that the exact same thing happened there.

That doesn't mean it's anime.

Anime IS animation that comes from Japan.

You're calling me a bigot but I just used a generalized example in regards to style. If you'd read the sentence before that, you would've seen that I specify that a Japanese cartoon that looks and feels entirely American would still be anime.

To look at it from the other side of the fence, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Teen Titans and Totally Spies are NOT anime, despite the stylistic similarities they share with it.

Just trust me on this one, psi.

Sorry but I can't just trust you, you still have yet to cite anything to backup what your point as I have done above.

I agree with you that Disney's arm was basically farm work to draw the friggen bubbles in 'The Little Mermaid' and basically all the episodes of Duck Tails, Tail Spin, etc.... and I don't consider them Anime, that was the point of me mentioning them.

Anime are a collection of techniques and styles that developed in Japan over time. This definition does not exclude the posiblity that anime can be done in other countries nor by non-Japanese.

Here, let me educate you.

Outside Japan, the term most popularly refers to animation originating in Japan, with distinctive character and background aesthetics that visually set it apart from other forms of animation (e.g. Walt Disney films, Warner Bros. short cartoons). Within Japan, the term anime is used to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.

We use words because they have concise meanings, words tend to loose value or have other values attributed to them over time so, I accept that anime can have several meanings as demostrated above. The fact that anime, at least within Japan refers to all forms of animation is quite telling in this respect.

Outside of Japan however, we generally refer to animation coming from Japan to be 'anime' which is a down right lie because not all animation originating from Japan is anime. All you have to do is name one, and only one piece of animation from Japan that is concieved from the ground up by Japanese. I'll name several: Final Fantasy: Spirits Withen, MS Gundam IGLOO, Momotaro, Eagle of the Sea (seen below).



source
I expect you to read that article because it explains early Japanese Animation (not anime) as it existed in pre-war Japan and post-war Japan.

Here is some more: History of anime

A better definition comes from the AHD:

A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex.

The AHD isn't anything to sneaze at, it is worded in a way to convey that Anime is a style that evolved (developed) in Japan. It does not say that it is exclusively Japanese, nor does it say that non-Japanese can't make anime.

To exclude Anime to one country or a race of people is biogtry.

We define that word here:

1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

and here

The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

Anime purists are just plain intolerant. So no, I will no 'just trust' you Femto.

This is interesting because some people are willing to agrue with me that Afro Samurai was not anime because it wasn't being animated by Japanese. The original post in the other thread even stated that it was, but I guess that was glossed over or someone didn't read the fine print.

We know that AS is Anime. However, hypothetically let us just say that AS was created and story boarded by a Canadian of non-Japanese decent. He/she however wanted it to be in the same style of anime. Is it still considered anime?

LordMune argued that no, it wouldn't be anime because it wasn't inked/drawn by Japanese. However, if you didn't know that it was created, inked and story board by Canadians... would you think it was anime?

If you say no, then I'll not argue any more and concede that anime is a style of animation that must be created and drawn by Japanese to exclusion of any other country or race.

If you say yes, then we need a better definition.