Afro Samurai isn't Anime

Post by **Buzkashi** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:42 am

Femto wrote:
Buzkashi wrote:I nominate "Latino Heat" or something of the sort.

Post by **Shaka Zulu** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:09 am

Buzkashi wrote:I nominate "Latino Heat" or something of the sort.

Great plan, evoking ze fury of Fez(because its Oh so the ladies want a piece of Fez and Fez alone) so he can challenge him on a duel of Gayness.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:54 pm

Femto wrote:I nominate this for "Funkiest Thread of 2006."

PS: Somebody change my rank to something funny.

I'm tired of the one I have.

Dont worry you will be a forum ***** like me soon

Post by **Arngrim** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:46 am

Wow...um, guess I'll do something other than piss on the trainwreck.

No, Afro Samurai is not anime in the sense it was not created in Japan. However, it does bear the style, as do many American shows now a days. You can't say it is or isn't either way, whether someone wants to be anal retentive and babble on all day how it not being 100% covered in Japanese placenta can do whatever they want, not like they're the first group of people to be in flat out denial even in the presence of established fact, but eh.

It's like saying Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust or Transformers aren't/are anime because they were either developed in one country prior to the other or featured more of an oriental staff. Besides, its not like the Japanese are the only people to have coined another term for their style of animation, people just abuse it to rediculous levels as they know of nothing else.

Post by **Femto** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:51 am

The problem with this thread is that each and every one of us is trying to box art into a limited and/or restrictive category.

I can't even begin to count the number of occasions where, during an Art History class, a professor would give us the definition of say, Rococo, only to say "this is Rococo, but it doesn't have this and this and this like other Rococo pieces in it's period."

As an art style begins to grow, it also begins to outgrow it's conventions and characteristics and anime or japanimation or whatever it is you want to call it has slowly evolved from just big eyed characters with wildly colored hairs to a variety of different genres and styles that are impossible to pin down into a single genre.

I mean, Ghost in the Shell is widely known as a staple of anime, but it looks nothing like most animation that comes out of Japan.

This dawned upon me whilst on a subway ride to work.

Post by **Starnum** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:15 am

Afro Samurai IS anime

Vampire Hunter D: Blood Lust IS anime

Teen Titans is NOT anime

Totally Spies is NOT anime

Yes, I'll admit the genre has become much more diverse over the years, and perhaps I am a purist, but there are just some things I can't accept as anime.

Post by **Malvado** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:21 am

Pop Session is anime. Shit is horrible too.

Post by **Libaax** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:15 pm

Starnum wrote:Afro Samurai IS anime

Vampire Hunter D: Blood Lust IS anime

Teen Titans is NOT anime

Totally Spies is NOT anime

Yes, I'll admit the genre has become much more diverse over the years, and perhaps I am a purist, but there are just some things I can't accept as anime.

Yeah i dont see what people's problem is, you can see clearly what is anime and what isnt.

Also anime isnt just the art style of animation, its a hole diffrent type of storytelling than other animation. They have things in thier stories, certain elements of story and characters that you only see in anime.

Its like saying what is the diffrence beteween american comics and manga. The diffrence is very clear.

Post by **psi29a** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:54 pm

Femto wrote:The problem with this thread is that each and every one of us is trying to box art into a limited and/or restrictive category.

I can't even begin to count the number of occasions where, during an Art History class, a professor would give us the definition of say, Rococo, only to say "this is Rococo, but it doesn't have this and this and this like other Rococo pieces in it's period."

As an art style begins to grow, it also begins to outgrow it's conventions and characteristics and anime or japanimation or whatever it is you want to call it has slowly evolved from just big eyed characters with wildly colored hairs to a variety of different genres and styles that are impossible to pin down into a single genre.

I mean, Ghost in the Shell is widely known as a staple of anime, but it looks nothing like most animation that comes out of Japan.

This dawned upon me whilst on a subway ride to work.

Ghost in the Shell, MS Gundam Igloo, the list goes on... point is things evolve.

Post by **Fuji Nagase** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:14 pm

Arngrim wrote:It's like saying Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust or Transformers aren't/are anime because they were either developed in one country prior to the other or featured more of an oriental staff.

dolls and rugs are the only things that are oriental.

Post by **Arngrim** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:53 pm

Femto wrote:The problem with this thread is that each and every one of us is trying to box art into a limited and/or restrictive category.

I can't even begin to count the number of occasions where, during an Art History class, a professor would give us the definition of say, Rococo, only to say "this is Rococo, but it doesn't have this and this and this like other Rococo pieces in it's period."

As an art style begins to grow, it also begins to outgrow it's conventions and characteristics and anime or japanimation or whatever it is you want to call it has slowly evolved from just big eyed characters with wildly colored hairs to a variety of different genres and styles that are impossible to pin down into a single genre.

I mean, Ghost in the Shell is widely known as a staple of anime, but it looks nothing like most animation that comes out of Japan.

This dawned upon me whilst on a subway ride to work.

Well said. It's pretty much true that styles have different staples etc, but just as you mentioned with Ghost in the Shell is very different than what most people define as typical anime. Imo, some of the studio ghibli films, both in production quality and general aesthetics are more comparable to classic Disney films than Kikaider or Saint Seiya.

Post by **Starnum** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:28 am

Libaax wrote:Yeah i dont see what people's problem is, you can see clearly what is anime and what isnt.

Also anime isnt just the art style of animation, its a hole diffrent type of storytelling than other animation. They have things in thier stories, certain elements of story and characters that you only see in anime.

Its like saying what is the diffrence beteween american comics and manga. The diffrence is very clear.

Seriously, I totally agree.

Post by **ZombieToaster** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:17 pm

the line isnt always very clear.

in some superman comics from 1938 superman sometimes looks like he was from a manga.

Post by **Arngrim** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:32 pm

Fuji Nagase wrote:
Arngrim wrote:It's like saying Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust or Transformers aren't/are anime because they were either developed in one country prior to the other or featured more of an oriental staff.
dolls and rugs are the only things that are oriental.

lol what is with people on MW? It's not an item to every person, it is -and was- an actual term used to describe -anything-, be it person, object, or thing, from what is dubbed "The orient". Some cultures (namely America) have struck this down as deragatory and beefed the subject out as it was a sign of "imperialistic hate", much like "Jap" of WWII. Thus -most- americans adopted this saying as an item-proned thing.

Um, I was taught differently and yes, it does mean anything hailing from eastern Asia ("asian" is doubly incorrect, as not all races hailing from asia are Japanese or Chinese...) so yeah. ayeeee.

As for anime, again, the line is not something clear. If somebody dubbed Teen Titans in Japanese, (not to mention its intro) and threw it in front of a person who knew nothing about it, they could easily mistake it for anime. Same with boondocks etc. Same with manga-styled comics, they could easily pass as asian if booked and sold in right-to-left format and written in kanjii, but they aren't thus people go "ololololol."

So yeah, its very blurred, like any art style, and the only clear definition is "a Japanese-style of animation", which again, is interpretive.

Post by **Fuji Nagase** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:40 am

whats funny is, these days we are always trying to define what anime really is, where as 10 years ago it wasnt quite the case. sailormoon, dbz, and pokemon were anime/manga. superman, justice league and X-men were american comics or cartoons. the lines are getting thinner, maybe even non existent. but we are still trying to explain desperately why one show IS anime and the other isn't.

Arngrim,

you can do whatever you want, but to refer to a person as from the orient is kind of of old fashioned and can yes, be taken as a white imperialistic term depending on who you are talking to. the more modern rule is commonly, as i said; only rugs and dolls are oriental. however you can do whatever you want.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:07 am

Arngrim wrote: If somebody dubbed Teen Titans in Japanese, (not to mention its intro) and threw it in front of a person who knew nothing about it, they could easily mistake it for anime.

Since when did a n00b's opinion matter? I'm heavily experienced in the field, and I know better.

Post by **Femto** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:34 am

Starnum wrote:Since when did a n00b's opinion matter? I'm heavily experienced in the field, and I know better.

This is true.

If you put a Volvo in front of person that doesn't know a thing about cars (much like myself), he's not going to know what fucking country it's from so their opinion on the subject is mostly invalid.

That's why, when talking of animation, I'd like it if people would sit back and shut the fuck up because I know more about the subject than (almost) everyone here. I won't always be right, but chances are I am.

If we're talking about WWII or some shit like that, I'll just sit back and look at butterflies.

I'd like to say that anime is any sort of animation that comes from Japan because, among other things, the word "anime" itself originates from Japan and Japan only but I digress. The lines are becoming blurrier and I don't think it's possible for anyone (not me and certainly not you, Starnum) to say what is or isn't anime with exact pinpoint precision.

A ballpark area will suffice.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:53 am

I've already conceded to that issue. I'm just saying that SOME things clearly are or aren't anime, not all. Well, for an experienced anime fan. Anyway, I don't really care about this subject anymore. Everyone is free to think what they want about the topic, I've never been one to deny people of that...and I'll do the same.

Post by **psi29a** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:01 am

Femto wrote:I'd like to say that anime is any sort of animation that comes from Japan because, among other things, the word "anime" itself originates from Japan and Japan only but I digress. The lines are becoming blurrier and I don't think it's possible for anyone (not me and certainly not you, Starnum) to say what is or isn't anime with exact pinpoint precision.

Sorry to blur it just a bit more, but from what I've found is that Anime is French in origin and borrowed by the Japanese.

http://www.animeinfo.org/ wrote:Anime (AH-nee-may or AN-nee-may)
n. - Literal origin from the French, (short for "animation").

I had posted other links and quotes earlier in the thread where is lists the animation abroad of Japan that was later brought into pre-WW2 Japan. Anime had it's origin in France and Germany before being developed further into what we know it to be today in Japan.

I'm not saying that anyone is particularly wrong, I just think that Anime is richer in context then most people give it credit for.

Feel free to research the history of Japanese animation for yourself, specifically the early 1920's with Kimura Hakuzan and Murata Yasuj who pretty much had the first animation studios in Japan. This flies in the face of those who consider Tezuka Osamu (Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion) as the originator of Anime.

I don't claim to study history for a living, but I find an interest in Japanese history from an amatuer's perspective. It makes me kinda of biased, so I apologize ahead of time.

Post by **Femto** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:06 am

psi29a wrote:Feel free to research the history of Japanese animation for yourself, specifically the early 1920's with Kimura Hakuzan and Murata Yasuj who pretty much had the first animation studios in Japan. This flies in the face of those who consider Tezuka Osamu (Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion) as the originator of Anime.

Well, animation in the "sequential drawings shot on film that create the illusion of movement" sense started early in the nineteen hundreds (1907?), so I'm certain Japan took their shot at the medium way before Tezuka did in the 60's.

The reason why Tezuka is credited as the "Father of Anime" (not "originator," that has a completely different meaning) is because he crystallized a lot of the elements that we now take for granted in japanimation and manga like speed lines and those big eyes (and probably robots as well).

It's like Walt Disney, animation existed a couple of decades before he came along, but it wasn't after him that animation became something "real," for lack of a better word. Tezuka drew a lot from Disney as well (like any respectable animator) but that doesn't mean Disney was doing anime.

Not to throw more wood into the fire, but the fact that the word anime originated in France has very little to do with the type of animation that has been known as "anime" for the last few decades.

PS: I like the word japanimation, it's completely self-explanatory.

Post by **FightClub** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:31 am

why the fuck did I just read this?

Post by **psi29a** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:16 pm

Femto wrote:Not to throw more wood into the fire, but the fact that the word anime originated in France has very little to do with the type of animation that has been known as "anime" for the last few decades.

PS: I like the word japanimation, it's completely self-explanatory.

I agree that Japanese animation (japanimation) is very self-explanatory, however Anime is a French word for animation. It makes sense that those studying abroad of Japan would pick up the word and bring it home to Japan. I find it absurd to think that Japan came up with the word 'anime' independantly of France who happened to use the word earlier than their Japanese counterparts.

In Japan itself, anime refers to all animation just like in France. However, the American lexicon for anime is that it originates from Japan. French Canadians will be of course saddened because Anime also refers to French animation. So the rift in the word usage occures over US & Canadian lines.

That all being said, you all can guess what 'type' of Anime we really like in this forum.

Anime has many meanings, and to exclude a definition from the word is just dishonest.

Post by **Malvado** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:53 pm

Fuji Nagase wrote:
Arngrim,

you can do whatever you want, but to refer to a person as from the orient is kind of of old fashioned and can yes, be taken as a white imperialistic term depending on who you are talking to. the more modern rule is commonly, as i said; only rugs and dolls are oriental. however you can do whatever you want.

I don't like the term African-american. White people done it again. I suppose.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:06 pm

Femto wrote:The lines are becoming blurrier and I don't think it's possible for anyone (not me and certainly not you, Starnum) to say what is or isn't anime with exact pinpoint precision.

A ballpark area will suffice.

I'm not really disputing the fact that it’s hard for anyone to specifically pinpoint what exactly anime is. However, I would like to mention that I’ve been chronically watching anime for about eleven years. I’ve seen well over a hundred different anime, many of them being quite lengthy series. Oh, and this isn't counting the ton of manga I've read. Due to my interest in anime, I’ve studied it’s history, and much of the Japanese history and culture. I’m a self proclaimed fanatic. So, maybe I'm naive here, but I think I have a pretty damn good idea what anime is. I'm sorry, but I don’t think just because someone is taking a class on art or animation, that they know any more about anime than I do. Oh, there are people out there who know a hell of a lot more about anime than I do, that's for damn sure, but an animation class doesn’t cut it. Maybe a class on anime would help. Hell, I could probably teach a class on anime. As for actually drawing or making animation, I don't know jack shit, but that's not what we're really talking about here.

Also, Osamu Tezuka really is the Father of Anime, for the very reasons that Femto mentioned. Thanks for that Femto, I definitely recognize that you know a thing or two about anime, but not necessarily more than me. Sorry, I have hard time trusting the opinion of someone who talks shit about One Piece, when they’ve only seen one episode, and judges it based solely on it’s unique art style. Especially when it comes to an opinion on anime. You know, Dragon Ball Z has a very unique art style as well. However, for the most part we seem to be agreeing on this particular subject, heh.

Oh, and as for giant robot anime, Gou Nagai is the Father of Super Robots, and Yoshiyuki “Kill ‘em All” Tomino is the Father of Real Robots. Tomino is the creator of Gundam, but he was making real robot series before he did Gundam. Gou Nagai is well known for Getter Robo and Devil Man.

Here’s a funny little factoid, one of Kentaro Miura’s inspirations is Gou Nagai (read any of Nagai’s work and you’ll see why, the man is fucking insane.) They recently asked Miura if there were any manga he was reading lately, and he said Devil Man. They also asked Nagai what he was reading, and he said Berserk, lol.

Post by **Femto** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:04 pm

Starnum wrote:
Femto wrote:The lines are becoming blurrier and I don't think it's possible for anyone (not me and certainly not you, Starnum) to say what is or isn't anime with exact pinpoint precision.

A ballpark area will suffice.
I'm not really disputing the fact that it’s hard for anyone to specifically pinpoint what exactly anime is. However, I would like to mention that I’ve been chronically watching anime for about eleven years. I’ve seen well over a hundred different anime, many of them being quite lengthy series. Oh, and this isn't counting the ton of manga I've read. Due to my interest in anime, I’ve studied it’s history, and much of the Japanese history and culture. I’m a self proclaimed fanatic. So, maybe I'm naive here, but I think I have a pretty damn good idea what anime is. I'm sorry, but I don’t think just because someone is taking a class on art or animation, that they know any more about anime than I do. Oh, there are people out there who know a hell of a lot more about anime than I do, that's for damn sure, but an animation class doesn’t cut it. Maybe a class on anime would help. Hell, I could probably teach a class on anime. As for actually drawing or making animation, I don't know jack shit, but that's not what we're really talking about here.

Also, Osamu Tezuka really is the Father of Anime, for the very reasons that Femto mentioned. Thanks for that Femto, I definitely recognize that you know a thing or two about anime, but not necessarily more than me. Sorry, I have hard time trusting the opinion of someone who talks shit about One Piece, when they’ve only seen one episode, and judges it based solely on it’s unique art style. Especially when it comes to an opinion on anime. You know, Dragon Ball Z has a very unique art style as well. However, for the most part we seem to be agreeing on this particular subject, heh.

Oh, and as for giant robot anime, Gou Nagai is the Father of Super Robots, and Yoshiyuki “Kill ‘em All” Tomino is the Father of Real Robots. Tomino is the creator of Gundam, but he was making real robot series before he did Gundam. Gou Nagai is well known for Getter Robo and Devil Man.

Here’s a funny little factoid, one of Kentaro Miura’s inspirations is Gou Nagai (read any of Nagai’s work and you’ll see why, the man is fucking insane.) They recently asked Miura if there were any manga he was reading lately, and he said Devil Man. They also asked Nagai what he was reading, and he said Berserk, lol.

Watching every movie in the world doesn't make you a film critic.

Your problem is that you can't differentiate between what you like and what is actually good. I don't like Eva but, regardless of that show being good or not, I can't ignore the weight it carries. You think people will remember One Piece or FMA 10, 50 years from now? Of course not. Japan is flooding the animation market with pure garbage but you're incapable of seeing the bigger picture. Only when you blind anime fanboys realize that you're watching the same shit over and over and the market crashes will we start to get good animation from Japan again.

It's like the US and CG films. How many CG movies have come out in the year so far? One? A dozen? Couple dozen? How many of them suck? Nearly all of them.

You obviously love anime so much and have spent so much time on that hobby that you can't see how bad the situation is. Throw me any recent anime show that isn't ridiculously long and I swear I'll watch and I'll tell you why it sucks (because it will).

You of course, will not listen.

lol @ you teaching an anime class.

I wouldn't pay money to see that.