Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

[psi29a]

The chapter was removed by Miura because he felt it exposed to much of the storyline and didn't want it in the Volume (tank). It is safe to assume that re-use the same tank from Japan.

Also, in Volume 14 in Japan (the tank) also had the Berserk Prototype, so again, DH is just using the same tank.


More conversations...

(14:31:59) psi29a: heheh
(14:32:14) psi29a: its a big friggen Hand, that is a pretty sick lounge
(14:32:34) Aazealh: Well that's just for ceremonies, I think usually they're in the Escher dimension.
(14:32:45) Aazealh: Just walking up and down stairs
(14:32:47) Aazealh: all day
(14:32:53) Aazealh: Talk about hell.
(14:33:34) Aazealh: Anyway, keep in mind that if we exclude episode 83, we don't know anything about the Idea of Evil, save that it exists and that it's "God."
(14:35:29) psi29a: by God, we mean it is the end all be all God? what are you thoughts on the pre-IOE world of Berserk?
(14:35:38) psi29a: again I know Miura doesn't address that
(14:36:08) Aazealh: Well, I don't think it's an ultimate God or anything, but it's still quite the entity.
(14:36:20) Aazealh: I don't think there's anything more powerful in the world, basically.
(14:36:25) psi29a: are we to assume that there is no god/creator and that the pre-established religions and faiths in the Berserk world are linked to IOE ?
(14:36:45) Aazealh: Yes, I would say so. But not about the religions.
(14:36:49) psi29a: What of the Elemental Kings?
(14:36:56) Aazealh: The religions and faiths in Berserk aren't based on the IoE at all.
(14:37:04) psi29a: not even manipulated?
(14:37:06) Aazealh: Well, they're powerful beings.
(14:37:23) Aazealh: Maybe manipulated, who knows? But they don't talk about it, at least not as far as we know.
(14:37:36) Aazealh: The Holy See's teachings talks bout the Elemental Kings
(14:37:39) Aazealh: under a different name
(14:37:47) Aazealh: it shows that basically it's a different vision of the world
(14:37:53) Aazealh: not unlike our real world religions
(14:38:16) Aazealh: Since all "western" religions share basically 80% of the same material, people, events, places, etc
(14:38:46) psi29a: *nod* So we have yet to see the Elemental Kings in action nor do we know if they can be equally powerful to Idea or is IOE on a seperate plain all together from the Elementals?
(14:39:17) Aazealh: The Idea of Evil doesn't reside on the same level
(14:39:22) Aazealh: It lies deep in the Abyss
(14:39:32) Aazealh: The Elemental Kings are probably in the astral realm
(14:39:36) psi29a: is the Abyss a creation of humans?
(14:39:50) Aazealh: Who knows? I'd say no, though.
(14:39:58) Aazealh: Their negative emotions are there though
(14:40:06) psi29a: so these planes (realms) of existance predate hhumans?
(14:40:21) Aazealh: That's impossible to know
(14:40:30) psi29a: *nods*
(14:40:31) Aazealh: They're not really realms but layers anyway.
(14:40:39) Aazealh: Layers of the world
(14:40:50) Aazealh: I guess it doesn't make a lot of difference
(14:40:57) Aazealh: Like they can be both
(14:40:57) psi29a: that is why guts and crew have to travel point a to point b, same world different layer.
(14:41:22) Aazealh: Yeah, it's like a fourth dimension, sort of
(14:42:02) psi29a: Flora's place exists int he same location, but only in the Astral layer is it relevent (and there more to the point).
(14:42:07) Aazealh: When they were in the Qliphoth, they were in the woods, sort of, but they weren't really in the woods anymore.
(14:42:28) psi29a: *nods*
(14:42:37) Aazealh: Well, her places existed more on the astral side yeah
(14:42:44) Aazealh: that's why the tree lived so long
(14:42:47) Aazealh: Her as well
(14:42:55) Aazealh: She probably lived a thousand years
(14:43:14) psi29a: Goes along with her and SK being 'friends'.
(14:43:19) Aazealh: Yeah

[MrFelony]

I think instead of comparing the elemental kings to IOE that it would be better to compare them to the God Hand. you never know, maybe Muira took that chapter out because he wanted to do one with the IOG...idea of good. to me it makes NO sense to have an IOE without an IOG. without an IOG there is less conflict...though maybe it suits the story more...but it would also be another explanation of SK's creation. I'm seeing Guts dying and going to the IOG and when IOG asks him what he wants he says "I want a sword. like a really huge fuckign sword. the mothing fucking sword of swords. CAUSE IM SICK OF THESE MOTHER FUCKING APOSTLES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING PLANET!

[Khelegond]

Well, I think you'll be subject to clubbering (the 'there's no idea of good' thing). But I'm inclined to think the classic 'There's no shadow without light'. So, I think there's something akin to IoE, but it's much smaller. After all, mankind is known for being evil, not good

BUT...I have no idea what to expect from Miura. I've learned to not try to predict him

[Phoenix]

First things first.

(14:28:13) psi29a: yeah... he breaks my brain.

A compliment, really.

(14:29:22) Aazealh: He thinks he knows much about the Idea of Evil or something, while it's all a great mystery.
(14:29:32) Aazealh: Because he can't explain something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You misunderstand me. The whole purpose of me asking this question is that I *don't* understand, and that at the very least, the normal laws of logic are being broken here. In retrospect, perhaps I was a little vague, so let me ask in a different way.

When Idea says it provides reasons, does it mean physical reasons for suffering (apostles, God Hand) or supernatural reasons (it simply existing)?

Beings like apostles don't provide reasons for suffering, they downright create it. In order for you to *provide* a reason for suffering, the humans must be aware of Idea's existence. If humans are aware of it's existence, then yes, they can blame life, death, pain, etc on it. If humans are not, what's the difference (to a human) between the pre-Idea world and this one?

[Istvan]

Why does there necessarily have to be a difference from their point of view? Idea was created because humans wanted it to exhist, and believed it exhisted, no where does it say that it has to let them know about it. And to address the plural "reasons" that you've mentioned, if you read the script, Idea provides reasons for several things, all of which can be lumped together under "evil." Next, the Apostles may create suffering, but Idea is the source of Apostles, so it is the "reason" for that suffering, and it's also implyed that Idea is effecting the world in many, subtler ways, and is ultimately responsible for all suffering.

[psi29a]

To the human's perspective, they have no clue that IOE exists. However, they do notice that the world is getting shittier, it should be obvious because of the apostles popping up everywhere post eclipse.

Now Humans still don't know that IOE exists, but now they see 'real monsters' and through out the series their are references to the white and black hawk. While humans don't know exactly what is going on, they are being manipulated for example to cheer on the 'white hawk' while demonizing the 'black hawk'. The HICKS (holy iron chain knights) made it their mission to capture the 'black hawk'.

The neat thing about this is what happens once Guts and crew leaves finally for Elfhelm. Sounds like they will be away from civilization for awhile. Does Griffith get his Kingdom? More importantly, what does Griffith do once he gets his Kingdom... after all he is Femto.

[MrFelony]

I have a sneaking feeling that Griffith will give the people what they truley want, salvation, and Guts will take that back by killing Griffith's material body. thus Griffith really is the white hawk and Guts the black.

To answer pheonix's question:

You do make an interesting point. I think what happened was people were blaming "god" and over time they accidentally created Idea. Idea's job was to take the roll of fate and be the reason for why events take place as they did. So i guess he causes them, making him the reason why they happen.

[Starnum]

If the lost chapter isn't in volume 13 of the American manga release, then we should probably change that information about it in the FAQ. However, I say wait and see if it is or not first.

[psi29a]

If the lost chapter isn't in volume 13 of the American manga release, then we should probably change that information about it in the FAQ. However, I say wait and see if it is or not first.

I agree, once volume 13 comes out... there is quite a bit of updating to do in the FAQ. *grin* We have learned a lot over the past 8 months since it was last touched in any signifigant way.

[Phoenix]

Why does there necessarily have to be a difference from their point of view?

Because it was their mentality that created Idea, and since they don't know it exists, they still don't have their so-called reasons.

Idea was created because humans wanted it to exhist, and believed it exhisted, no where does it say that it has to let them know about it. And to address the plural "reasons" that you've mentioned, if you read the script, Idea provides reasons for several things, all of which can be lumped together under "evil." Next, the Apostles may create suffering, but Idea is the source of Apostles, so it is the "reason" for that suffering, and it's also implyed that Idea is effecting the world in many, subtler ways, and is ultimately responsible for all suffering

The bolded part seemed to imply that, since Idea is responsible for suffering, this suffering wasn't there before Idea. If Idea's ultimately responsible for all suffering, it's prime mover, if you will, how can you have suffering without it?

To the human's perspective, they have no clue that IOE exists. However, they do notice that the world is getting shittier, it should be obvious because of the apostles popping up everywhere post eclipse.

There is more suffering in their world, yes, but *they* don't still have the reasons Idea says it provides. If IOE is still a mystery to them, they still ask "why?".

You do make an interesting point. I think what happened was people were blaming "god" and over time they accidentally created Idea. Idea's job was to take the roll of fate and be the reason for why events take place as they did. So i guess he causes them, making him the reason why they happen.

I realize that. My point is, since people don't know about IOE, there is no difference to a human between the pre-Idea world and this one. They don't have the reason they wanted.

[Jon Maitreya]

Well, I think you'll be subject to clubbering (the 'there's no idea of good' thing). But I'm inclined to think the classic 'There's no shadow without light'. So, I think there's something akin to IoE, but it's much smaller. After all, mankind is known for being evil, not good

I did wonder about an IoG for a while, but having looked back over the manga I do tihnk it highly unlikely that any true 'IoG' or 'angels' exist. Recall just after teh first encounter with Zodd. Griffith muses that maybe it indicates there are things out there beyond human's understanding - such as Gods. Guts replies 'Don't you mena Devils,' to which Griffith responds 'Aren't they the same thing?'

Even with the lost chapter removed, I think it is likely the Berserk Universe is headed towards the conclusion Griffith postulates (with the lost chapter it already has) - that 'God' and 'Devil' are the same, and that it is ultimately both evil and created by humanity. as you said, 'mankind is known for being evil, not good'.

The fact that the GodHand are referred to as 'angels' as well as 'demons' is another point that indicates the above conclusion.

[psi29a]

Is that a bad thing? Because of IOE, I think the world of Berserk is a worse place now than it was.

The kicker is that perhaps Miura made a mistake... should we consider that missing chapter be officially part of the mythos, specifically if it isn't in the 13th volume by DH.

[MrFelony]

I can make arguements...but discussing in detail the occurances of a fictionary world when we don't even have all the details gets a little silly (talking mostly about myself ). basically i would say that maybe the big difference was the creation of organized religion could have corresponded with the creation of Idea. Like when man first starts organizing religion and worshiping/follwoing a specific existence/god (or idea ) could have been when idea started to really come into existence.

[Joeki]

I haven't read through all of this. And pardon me if my following statement makes no sence, or has already been reputed etc.

To the people in the real world there would be little difference of course.
B ut maybe inthe Pre- IOE world , events were really random with no reason what so ever.
=> people needed reasons => gives existance to IOE : but now IOE takes the role that randomness used to have in the pre IOE world.
Thus things are not random anymore now , yet manipulated by the IOE.

In essence there is little difference , although one could argue that now it gets even worse. Becouse with randomness , there's always the chance of luck.
f.e. living a life without bad random stuff happening , i.e. a family member getting sick or dying in an accident is still possible.
Now IOE has taken over the role , it basicaly deprives everyone (and not just the "unlucky" people of the pre-IOE world) of the chance of any 'luck' in life ... thus creating much more room for suffering.

Just some crazy shit that was going through my head....

[Khelegond]

Well...here are my thought on IoE.

There wasn't nothing like it before. Maybe the elemental kings? Whatever...
Then, human subconscious created IoE, because they need 'someone to be responsible for everything'.
IoE, then, started using it's powers to change the human world. So, now, it's getting 'shittier' as someone said before

IoE it's not god. It's not omnipotent, thought omniscient.

[psi29a]

IoE is God, it says so... Miura inked it. It just so happens to be evil, and more to the point, there isn't anything to counter IoE, and it is Evil.

[Starnum]

If Idea doesn’t appear in volume 13, then I would assume he is still part of the story. However, Miura has just decided not to introduce the concept yet; felt it was to early perhaps. Yet, if Idea does appear in the release, then that’s difference. I was always under the impression that he added the chapter later, not removed it, so that he could help further define the world. Yet, recent statements floating around the net have said it’s actually the opposite of that, in which he didn’t want to reveal too much too early. So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

[MrFelony]

or maybe he had a different idea of where he wanted the story to go and by releasing that chapter it would seem to trap the story line in one limited direction, or contradicting himself later on. many reasons, might as well just wait and see

[Starnum]

Yes, this is true. There are several possibilities. I look forward to learning the truth. I'm sure we'll know at least a bit more when the American release of volume 13 is published.

[Phoenix]

Thus things are not random anymore now , yet manipulated by the IOE.

But to the humans Idea affects, what's the difference? They're still suffering, and they still don't have the reason.

[Istvan]

Because it was their mentality that created Idea, and since they don't know it exists, they still don't have their so-called reasons.

You're missing the point. Idea was created because humans wanted there to be a higher reason, and believed there was a reason, more then that they wanted to know the reason. You're mistaking these two things.

The bolded part seemed to imply that, since Idea is responsible for suffering, this suffering wasn't there before Idea. If Idea's ultimately responsible for all suffering, it's prime mover, if you will, how can you have suffering without it?

No, absolutely not. The fact that Idea is responsible for all suffering now in no way indicates that there couldn't be any suffering without Idea, it just indicates that it is so powerful that it influences everything, and that its purpose is to be the reason for suffering. This purpose requires it to be behind all suffering, since it needs to be the reason for that suffering. But all of this only applies to the time after its exhistence. It was created because there was suffering already. After all, if there was no suffering in the world, why would anyone need reasons for their suffering?

I realize that. My point is, since people don't know about IOE, there is no difference to a human between the pre-Idea world and this one. They don't have the reason they wanted.

There is a reason. They wanted there to be a reason, now there is one. Their desire (and belief) that a reason exhist at all was far, far, far stronger then their desire to know what it was.

[Phoenix]

You're missing the point. Idea was created because humans wanted there to be a higher reason, and believed there was a reason, more then that they wanted to know the reason. You're mistaking these two things.

Whether they wanted to know the reason or not is irrelevant. The only way you can be aware the reasons exists is if you know of it, whether you want to know or not. Man wanted a higher reason, and whether it exists or not, it doesn't for man. The suffering hasn't changed (in their minds), so they still ask why. The only thing Idea has done is add a supernatural tone to suffering, but it hasn't changed it.

No, absolutely not. The fact that Idea is responsible for all suffering now in no way indicates that there couldn't be any suffering without Idea, it just indicates that it is so powerful that it influences everything, and that its purpose is to be the reason for suffering. This purpose requires it to be behind all suffering, since it needs to be the reason for that suffering. But all of this only applies to the time after its exhistence. It was created because there was suffering already.

But the suffering hasn't changed, has it? Mankind suffered before, and mankind suffers now. IOE is just dead weight.

After all, if there was no suffering in the world, why would anyone need reasons for their suffering?

Perhaps humans naturally have the need to suffer. Perhaps they suffered without reason. I don't know, it's basically the question I'm asking.

There is a reason. They wanted there to be a reason, now there is one. Their desire (and belief) that a reason exhist at all was far, far, far stronger then their desire to know what it was.

There *is* a reason, but if they don't know about it, that reason changes nothing. The suffering itself hasn't changed, and mankind has seen no variation in it. If your parents give you a present you'll never be able to find, but it exists, is it still a present to you? Even if you're not even aware of it existence?

[MrFelony]

Whether they wanted to know the reason or not is irrelevant. The only way you can be aware the reasons exists is if you know of it, whether you want to know or not. Man wanted a higher reason, and whether it exists or not, it doesn't for man. The suffering hasn't changed (in their minds), so they still ask why. The only thing Idea has done is add a supernatural tone to suffering, but it hasn't changed it.

It's more along the lines that they asked and developed a reason, and to provide validity to that answer Idea was created. People wanted a reason for suffering so they created the idea of God (Idea). Once the idea of God was created, it started to form in a more organized manner creating religions and so forth. Throughout the creations of these organizations Idea was created at some point. In the mind of the people there is a God. They don't realize that the being that exists was created by humanity nor do they realize that it the Idea of Evil, but they still worship this God of theirs. Idea is just there to take over the roll of why suffering occurs. And guide it along a path. To say whether or not Idea guides the path or that humanity's desire guides Idea is moot.

But the suffering hasn't changed, has it? Mankind suffered before, and mankind suffers now. IOE is just dead weight.

Idea isn't so much dead weight as it is a vehicle to guide's mans deepest desires. If the collectivity of mankind desires to suffer, only to hope to be saved by a savior, then it shall provide that. From this discussion, and other writings, I have begun to take the view that it IOE is not controlling man's fate, but humanity itself. Humanity wished for a reason for suffering, so it created IOE through its subconscious to help lead itself along a path to what I speculate to be salvation. From this perspective we realize that humanity is not struggling against fate, but leading itself. Guts' struggle isn’t so much against fate as it is a fight against the control of his fellowman...though an argument of this caliber would require me to reread berserk which I cant do since I lack the older stuff...got to wait for it to come out I guess.

Pure speculation: While man wishes for power and greed and a reason for the suffering that results from the evil side of humanity, there is also a great hope that resides in humanity that one day it shall be saved from this great evil by some magnificent hero. In this "IOE" has instilled the will to save his people in Griffith which is why I believe Griffith is actually the White hawk and The Kushan emperor is the Black. Guts may also be seen as a white hawk and his inner demons the black if you want to label Guts a hawk. However this view will be determined by a specific path that the manga may take (it requires Guts to give up his path of vengeance against Griffith to pursue a loving relationship with casca).

There *is* a reason, but if they don't know about it, that reason changes nothing. The suffering itself hasn't changed, and mankind has seen no variation in it. If your parents give you a present you'll never be able to find, but it exists, is it still a present to you? Even if you're not even aware of it existence?

If a child wishes that Santa brings him a toy train for Christmas and receives one on Christmas does the child still not believe Santa brought him a toy for Christmas? Does the Parents buying the child the toy and lying to him/her change anything? The child doesn't know that the parents were the ones who got him the toy, but he believes in Santa all the same. In the end the parents serve the role of Santa whether or not the child realizes it. Though maybe another way of looking at it may help.

[Phoenix]

Say Zeus is the right god, and assume I worship the Judeo-christian one. Am I really worshipping Zeus in another form, or am I worshipping a cheap fake imitation?

Whether Idea spawned religion or not is not important. And, to mankind, whether the reason is there is not important either, because they don't know it. That "why" is still there, so Idea made little difference in the world. Yes, it may guide the suffering now, but the suffering was there anyway, it didn't change that. Now there's a supernatural reason, but so what? Mankind doesn't know it, and the old suffering is still there.

[Istvan]

First off, to say that nothing is different in the world because of Idea is just absurd. Idea has had a huge impact on the world, and has changed more or less everything. Most people may not know of its exhistence, but that in no way means that it hasn't had an effect. Second, you're acting as if Idea has to justify itself, or something. Idea was created because humans believed (and wanted there to be) a higher reason behind their suffering. Idea is that reason. The fact that few no of it is completely irrelevent. Human minds gave it form, and human minds created it, and human minds gave it its directives (be responsible for all suffering). None of that says that the himans involved have to know of its exhistence, and the fact that the world may not be perceptably different to humans is completely irrelevent. If I accidently created something, and didn't realize it at the time, and never went back and saw what I made (and so never even knew that I had created it) that doesn't make the thing that I created any less real, or in any way invalidate its exhistence. In this case, however, Idea was created by the collective uncounscious of all of humanity, not an individual.