Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

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Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

Post by 42ndEndOfTheWorld »

Hi, all, my first topic :)
I have some interesting ideas about Berserk and since Miura have already included some advanced concepts from philosophy such as idea of evil , some stuff from Nietzsche and some 4d math concepts, this is maybe not so far fetched. This was supposed to be a post in Femto's "On the current status of Berserk and stuff..." thread, but I wrote a lot of stuff so I though that this deserves to go as a separate thread. Please do not put this thing into Interstice just yet and try to bear with me(at least for some time)
First I need to explain some interesting concepts ,like chaos theory, for you. I am neither a mathematician nor scientist, so my explanations will probably be a bit too simplistic, but I'll try to give you a basic idea. Before 19th century it was generally believed by philosophers of science that everything that happens can be classified either as a rule or as an anomaly. It was believed that everything behaves according by some rules and that those rules are only ocasionaly broken, creating an anomaly. No one was very interested in those anomalies, and it was believed that anomalies have little or no influence on big picture. That framework of thinking was set up by Aristotle who believed that there is a world of pure ideas, and those ideas we can see on earth when they are mixed with matter. This process is ,however, unperfect. So everything has it's essence, it's idea.
In 19th century, however physicists, matematicians and others began to understand that this model is not as helpful as it looks. It was discovered that anomalies can accumulate, grow, somethimes even creating new rules. Thus new way of looking at things was invented to replace Aristotle's "essentialistic". Aristotle's way of thinking is still used today, when we measure something using a ruler we usually measure it several times and then calculate arithmetic mean in order to weed out anomalies. His model is, however not very helpful for determining some large scale stuff, like origins of life. Theory of evolution is a great example of a theory in which mistakes can become useful(but please do not turn this into evolution vs id debate, if you want to discuss this stuff use separate thread and I'll be glad to join).
Chaos Theory (aka Butterly Effect) was invented by a meteorologist Edward Lorenz and it was a huge blow for both essentialism and causality. It is very hard to explain that theory, but it can be generally said that Edward Lorenz discovered that in equations designed for predicting weather there are many small things that can make big consequences. In equation 7.56 + 5.22= 12.78 if you replace 7.56 with 7, result will be only slightly different. In some weather equations ,however, if you replace 7.000004 with 7, result may be totally different. Small wind can, over time, turn into a huge tornado, same way as a small vibration in air caused by a rifle can cause a huge avalanche. Fortunately for us, Edward Lorenz discovered some way to find order in the chaos, and we call his methods Chaos Theory. Before Chaos Theory it was believed that you only need to know things that have huge influence on other things in order to determine chains of causality and to predict (or change) future.
But what does all this have to do with Guts' sword-swingin'-gunpowder-abusin'-settin'-shit-on-fire rampage? Guts is a great example of anomaly gaining momentum and going berserk. Godhands do not seam to believe that small things can cause big problems (It was Slan who said that one fish can not change flow of the river or something). Since unplanned birth, he was messing up their plans. When he was saved by Skull Knight (another anomaly), he had learned stuff about godhands that no one else knew so he can now influence things in a way no one else can. This whole thing seems to be a critique to a causality. Also godhands are led by idea of evil which is also Aristotle's concept.
As Femto (a guy from this forum, not Griffith) wrote:

First of all, it means that Skull Knight's prophecies are moving in place. You can almost feel his shadow looming in the most recent chapters because events he foresaw are starting to take place. This of course means, that the bigger wheels in the story are finally moving and, like I said somewhere, we can finally pull back and look at the big picture.

Second, Guts is slowly becoming more powerful. Not only can he (potentially) control the armor now, but Schierke is able to cast magic from within, which makes him more of a powerhouse than he already is, not to mention the fact that the Dragonslayer is slowly becoming imbued with magic and the experience he's ranking from all those battles. I know that it was "cool" that Guts was killing Apostles on human strength alone but c'mon, if he slays the God Hand with a slab of metal and his human flesh, then that means that they weren't really that strong to begin with. Him becoming stronger means that his goal becomes more feasible and that, in turn, is more exciting for us readers, as opposed to seeing "I'll never have to strength to kill gods, but I'll sure as hell try!" for god knows how many chapters.


See? prevous anomalies are gaining momentum, making their own rules. Idea of Evil is no longer only force able to change course of things.

I'll post more later, but now I have to work.
Last edited by 42ndEndOfTheWorld on Thu May 04, 2006 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sandman »

Ok before you go on....

42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote: Guts is a great example of anomaly gaining momentum and going berserk. Godhands do not seam to believe that small things can cause big problems (It was Slan who said that one fish can not change flow of the river or something).
I cant wait for there big-headedness bite them in the ass :twisted: Let the river flow backwards and drown the godhand :evil:
42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote: Since unplanned birth, he was messing up their plans.
Beeeeeep WRONG everything up to the eclipse was FATED to happen to bring Griffith to the breaking point which called the Godhand
42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote: When he was saved by Skull Knight, he had learned stuff about godhands that no one else knew so he can now influence things in a way no one else can.


This is were the transition is, now that Guts has the knowledge what is he going to do with it?? And now that he has the tools to destroy powerfull "things" I am pretty sure he will do anything to stop any plans of the Godhand (after he gets Casca back to normal that is).
42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote: This whole thing seems to be a critique to a causality. Also godhands are led by idea of evil which is also Aristotle's concept.


I think you said this before.... now a critique, no more rambling keep everything in a the scope of Berserk. Yeah Guys where is the Hundred post limit??
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Post by Albator »

This should be in the symbolism thread, but I believe you were hitching to open a thread for some reason so bah, have at it.

But heh, 5 points for the long ass post. Not that I'm going to waste my time reading the contents since I saw this
It is very hard to explain that theory, but it can be generally said that Edward Lorenz discovered that in equations designed for predicting weather there are many small things that can make big consequences. In equation 7.56 + 5.22= 12.78 if you replace 7.56 with 7, result will be only slightly different. In some weather equations if you replace 7.000004 with 7, result may be totally different.
Sorry but mathematics and berserk don't do it for me.
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Post by psi29a »

Uh, err...

Any way you can make that a bit more coherent. I don't mean to whine like your English (or native language) teacher/professor but there needs to theme/topic starter, at least three supporting paragraphs, and a conclusion.

That way, I can read what the gist is at the top, read your conclusion, and if I feel like it read how you came to your conclusion when you try to go past general conversation and into essay.

Anything else is just a bunch of words.

Overall, lots of info and looks promissing but for the benefit of getting good responses from the rest of the crowd can you clean it up a bit?

:)
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Post by Devil_Dante »

Albator wrote:
It is very hard to explain that theory, but it can be generally said that Edward Lorenz discovered that in equations designed for predicting weather there are many small things that can make big consequences. In equation 7.56 + 5.22= 12.78 if you replace 7.56 with 7, result will be only slightly different. In some weather equations if you replace 7.000004 with 7, result may be totally different.
Sorry but mathematics and berserk don't do it for me.
He just wanted to indicate that small differences can cause huge consequences... right?
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Post by Gundam_Bobcat »

Devil_Dante wrote:
Albator wrote:
It is very hard to explain that theory, but it can be generally said that Edward Lorenz discovered that in equations designed for predicting weather there are many small things that can make big consequences. In equation 7.56 + 5.22= 12.78 if you replace 7.56 with 7, result will be only slightly different. In some weather equations if you replace 7.000004 with 7, result may be totally different.
Sorry but mathematics and berserk don't do it for me.
He just wanted to indicate that small differences can cause huge consequences... right?
Correct. Its not the numbers, its just applying the concept of the math to real life or in this case a story.
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Post by Istvan »

Although usually in chaos theory, it is that many small anomalies (even one's too small to measure) can add up over time to cause a huge difference, and Gatts is only one. Still, it works because even just one error, if it is the right error, can, over time, through the calculations off more and more, and this is more extreme in Guts case, since he is a thinking anomaly. I hadn't thought about this in terms of chaos theory before, but it is certainly very worth considering.

P.S. The one who thought that the whole world moved according to ideas (or "Forms" as he termed them) was Plato, not Aristotle.
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Post by Gundam_Bobcat »

And I thought learning the chaos theory in physics was a waist of time. It seems some of my worthless knowledge is finally paying off.

I belive that according to the chaos theory the same thing or events cannot happen twice. They can be similar but not a direct copy, which could be another explanation of why Griffith came back, and possible this time become a king.
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Post by Quest »

yeah guts can be viewed as a glitch in the system.
sorta like neo in the matrix.
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Post by Gundam_Bobcat »

Quest wrote:yeah guts can be viewed as a glitch in the system.
sorta like neo in the matrix.
Yea, but Guts is cool.
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Post by Istvan »

Also, if you watch the second and third movies, Neo was planned for. It's Smith that messes everything up. And I would have to agree with Gundam_Bobcat that Guts is definately cooler then Neo.
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Post by Shalabala »

Istvan wrote:P.S. The one who thought that the whole world moved according to ideas (or "Forms" as he termed them) was Plato, not Aristotle.
If I am not mistaken they both believed in the idea. But while Plato (who was the one who came up with the concept) thought that the idea could exist independently of the 'real' word, Aristoteles meant that the idea was an abstraction created by the human mind. In that respect I'd say his analogy is closer to Aristoteles view.
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Post by Istvan »

What Plato actually thought was that the "real" world was nothing but a shadow cast by everchanging flux of the true forms that he envisioned. But I didn't know that about Aristotle. If you're accurate in that, then you're right, Aristotle would definately be pretty close to what Miura has concieved of with Idea and the Abyss.
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Post by Quest »

try not to read too much into berserk and the ideas behind it.
i think even muira himself doesnt think so deeply into his creation.

i think further down the story. more individual anormalies will be introduced and gathered in order to defeat the godhands.
if beating them was the main point anyway.
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Post by MrFelony »

you should do a search about guts and fate, we had a great debate about it and you would probably enjoy it.I and i think about 2 others who agreed with me, argued that Guts is actually bound by fate. If you looks at every action guts has made, it has been helping further push him down this almost set path. he was a huge proponent in making griffith sacrifice the hawks, and his own role he played there has helped shape the person he is at the moment. even now i can't really see how people say that he is outside the grasp of fate/Idea. he is following a path set by Idea IMHO. If guts were to say right now, Fuck it im going to just sit ona log for the rest of my life and just forget about casca and griffith, then i'd be forced to admit that he is not bound by fate.

However, Every action that Guts has made has mainly been a reaction to some outside force guiding him along. think about when guts was chasing griffith and the other apostles shadow. what stopped him? did he think to himself that it would be a good idea to check on casca to see if she was alright? no. he saw a vision of her in trouble and did the most predictable thing he could do, save her. Later on he continues to fulfill predictions and becomes closer with Shierke, much like SK and Flora...its just all too planned out for guts to not be following some fate.

the reason why i believe most of you argue that he isn't under fates control is because he struggles agaisnt the godhand and god himself. the way i see it, that IS is fate. while extremely powerful, the Godhand are just tools of Idea, and the way i see it, Idea has created a huge struggle between Guts/Sk against Femto/the brain apostle (can't believe i forgot his name lol). this struggle is very representative of the very thing Idea represents, human emotion and the conflict and struggles that develope and what the desire and all that jazz. guts is fated to struggle against his supposed "fate"...so thats what i have to say. nothing tooooo long

ps: sorry psi, i write posts as if im speaking. I'll edit it some if you'd like me too heh ;)
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Post by psi29a »

MrFelony wrote:ps: sorry psi, i write posts as if im speaking. I'll edit it some if you'd like me too heh ;)


Your cool, at least it is broken up into something resembling paragraphs.

My 2cents here, but it seemed that Guts started off as a wonderer, with only himself as the decider of his fate. Then during the golden age, his decider was Griffith. Things 'seemed' to fall apart after Guts left as he became the decider of his own fate again. Griffith screwed the pooch, and there was much torture.

Now, fast forward to post eclipse. Guts takes retarded Casca, and becomes the decider for both of their fates. All the while however he is taking hints from "Skull Daddy" who prods him along a different path than he would have chosen.

Now here comes the mind-rape: Idea is the culmination of the entire subconscious of humanity, through humanity Idea manifests and through Idea, fate is being "hammered" out. Is SK apart of Idea's plan, like the tools that are the God-Hand (Brain Guy == Void). It is assumed implicity that Idea is quite aware (for oh, say the past 1000 years) of SK's presence.

We can't trust what SK is doing will help Guts in the long the run. For all we know, SK is using Guts to further his own agenda with Void. Can Guts still be considered the decider of his own fate now that he is following the path set for him by SK?

Perhaps there are many paths, however the "Fate" is the same? Liken this question to asking a deathrow inmate to choose their execution preference. They did get a choice.
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Post by MrFelony »

psi29a wrote:My 2cents here, but it seemed that Guts started off as a wonderer, with only himself as the decider of his fate. Then during the golden age, his decider was Griffith. Things 'seemed' to fall apart after Guts left as he became the decider of his own fate again. Griffith screwed the pooch, and there was much torture.
I think the problem is it seems that you're seeing him making his "own" decisions as him controlling his own fate. Idea doesn't force people to do things so much as influence them through the blood that has been mixed (to semi quote him there) and the decisions put before him. such as the death of his adopted mother and the crippling of his "father" lead to him killing him and being forced to flee the camp.
psi29a wrote:Now, fast forward to post eclipse. Guts takes retarded Casca, and becomes the decider for both of their fates. All the while however he is taking hints from "Skull Daddy" who prods him along a different path than he would have chosen.

Now here comes the mind-rape: Idea is the culmination of the entire subconscious of humanity, through humanity Idea manifests and through Idea, fate is being "hammered" out. Is SK apart of Idea's plan, like the tools that are the God-Hand (Brain Guy == Void). It is assumed implicity that Idea is quite aware (for oh, say the past 1000 years) of SK's presence.

We can't trust what SK is doing will help Guts in the long the run. For all we know, SK is using Guts to further his own agenda with Void. Can Guts still be considered the decider of his own fate now that he is following the path set for him by SK?

Perhaps there are many paths, however the "Fate" is the same? Liken this question to asking a deathrow inmate to choose their execution preference. They did get a choice.


well there are several different ways to look at this. I dont have a lot of time, but i believe that SK is also under Idea's control and that he a major part in him influencing guts, cause if it wasnt for SK, guts wouldnt have been saved. I'll touch on this later but i have to study :(.
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Post by Wandering_Mystic »

Ah our epic debate! Good times. I actually don't have a problem with the idea that Guts could indeed be guided by fate. I can follow all of MrFelony's arguments up until he tosses Idea in there. Basically, I feel I know too little about Idea to conclusively say that it is controlling fate or not.

I still separate Idea and Fate in my mind until I see something more substantial in the way of evidence in the story. Idea only appeared in the lost chapter, and was never mentioned since, which isn't enough info for me. So my view is that if Guts is indeed controlled by some fate, I don't think it is the same fate that Idea is manipulating.

Otherwise, many signs from earlier in the manga point to Guts going against the current or being outside the plan (he should have died, blah blah), which can be interpreted as having one foot outside the boundaries of fate (or not). But recently, it looks like Guts and his own group are part of an actual design. Being outside the control of Fate is supposed to be so rare a thing (if even at all possible), that this idea only really works if Guts is alone. But now that he seems to have once again fallen in with steady comrades, either his own displacement in Fate is masked by their own ties to the grand scheme of things, or it was an illusion to begin with.

As for the Chaos theory take, I find it interesting, and although I can also see how Griffith's own ascent to God Hand-hood followed a similar model, coming from nothing and then gaining more and more momentum, it also adds something to the Guts is an anomaly debate somewhat, as Istavan already pointed out. In Chaos Theory it usually takes many immeasurably small anomalies (and the right kind) to add up to something that might throw everything else off, and maybe Guts' new companions can be seen as anomalies in that sense too.
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Post by Starnum »

Yeah, that's nice. Kind of a round-about way of making a couple of nice points about Berserk which we've touched on before. Comparing Gatts to an anomaly isn't such a bad way of looking at it. As I've said before, at this point, he is no longer bound by fate. He is the struggler, bent on not letting the God Hand warp the world however they want any longer.
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Post by Istvan »

Otherwise, many signs from earlier in the manga point to Guts going against the current or being outside the plan (he should have died, blah blah), which can be interpreted as having one foot outside the boundaries of fate (or not). But recently, it looks like Guts and his own group are part of an actual design. Being outside the control of Fate is supposed to be so rare a thing (if even at all possible), that this idea only really works if Guts is alone. But now that he seems to have once again fallen in with steady comrades, either his own displacement in Fate is masked by their own ties to the grand scheme of things, or it was an illusion to begin with.
His gaining companions isn't really a problem (I feel that he has been outside of fate since the eclipse). We can tie it into Chaos theory, as mentioned above. Guts is outside of fate, but he's going around doing things, not just sitting in a cave by himself. So these actions he takes can alter the path that other peoples fates should have taken. Farnese and Serpico ought to have died at the second eclipse, Schierke should (probably) have died in the forest with her teacher, and Isidoro should have been killed by the Kushans. If you notice, the only reason any of his companions (except maybe Schierke) are alive is because of Gutts. So they didn't recieve the fate they should have, and thus are now with him. Maybe by being alive when they ought to have died they are now also outside of fate? It's just another example of how in Chaose theory, a little anomaly, over time adds up to become a huge change.
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Post by Wandering_Mystic »

Good point, I hadn't really thought of that
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Post by psi29a »

MMMmmmm, juicy theories. Good stuff. 8)
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Post by Sandman »

Istvan wrote:...Guts is outside of fate, but he's going around doing things, not just sitting in a cave by himself. So these actions he takes can alter the path that other peoples fates should have taken. Farnese and Serpico ought to have died at the second eclipse, Schierke should (probably) have died in the forest with her teacher, and Isidoro should have been killed by the Kushans. If you notice, the only reason any of his companions (except maybe Schierke) are alive is because of Gutts. So they didn't recieve the fate they should have, and thus are now with him. Maybe by being alive when they ought to have died they are now also outside of fate? It's just another example of how in Chaose theory, a little anomaly, over time adds up to become a huge change.
Couldnt have said it better my self, this is probably the reason that "the staff Knight"(guy from the holy knight) hasnt joined, if you remeber he saved him self or was not saved by guts :twisted:

PS Schierke would have died because if they wouldnt have met Guts the apostles would have torn her apart with flora :evil: I guess that I am talking about things that are useless to talk about because he never know what could have happened :roll:
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Post by Phoenix »

While it's true Guts is becoming stronger and stronger, we can't forget (literally, since demons and gods keep saying it) that Guts is and will always be a mere human. The Berserker armor makes him very strong, yes, but is his strength enough to fight evenly against a god? Hardly.

The Chaos Theory says that a small wind can cause a tornado, but that wind itself will not become one, it is just the catalyst. I'm not sure how the manga will end because a human cannot kill a god, the diference in power is simply too great to compare. The only way out for Guts that I see is that Griffith lost most of his godhood by becoming human (which is possible, since there's a reason gods can't physically exist in the material plane).

Guts struggles against fate, but has he actually beaten it? Or even better, is Fate a path for all of humanity, one that doesn't concern itself with the actions of a lone human?
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Post by Istvan »

But the group that Guts is now forming could be the manifestation of our metaphorical tornado. Just because Guts, by himself could never destroy Femto, that doesn't mean that an entire group of sufficiently skilled/powerful individuals couldn't do so. Remember what SK said, that only those who were outside of the story (a.k.a. outside of fate) could possibly harm a God's Hand, which is why Griffith targeted Flora. But this implies that it is possible for such individuals to destroy even a God's Hand, though it is almost certainly so difficult as to be nearly impossible.
Also, remember the nature of Guts sword, and how it has become specialized to destroy supernatural beings. If the others can somehow let him get close to Griffith (Femto has proved capable of blasting him away with a look, as I recall) I wouldn't be surprised if that sword is capable of injuring even a God's Hand.
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