Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

[ic3y]

... *sigh* it has been brought up time and time again. The official EG and SK.Net understanding is that Idea of Evil is it, and the only possible worry IOE has is form the Elemental Kings... but they could care less about the affairs of humans.

Really? My impression was always that while the 4 Elemental Kings might (we don't really know) be able to challenge the God's Hand, they were far less then Idea. Because (and correct me if I'm wrong) weren't the Elemental Kings also created by humanity? By humans imagining the embodiment of elemental forces? My impression from the explanation we got was that all elemental creatures, from the slyphs, salamanders, and elves all the way up to the Elemental Kings, were created by humanity. And I also got the impression that although extremely powerful, they were less then Idea. After all, a suficiently awesome magic user might be able to channel one of them, but can you imagine anyone doing the same with Idea? Besides, they reside deep in the Astral world, but at a point that the human mind can journey to, whereas Idea is much, much, much deeper in, past the Maelstorm, past which no human mind can journey and return. So I'm pretty sure that Idea itself is far beyond the Elemental Kings, and has little, if anything, to fear from them.

To me that suggests that the humans created all of this then, and all the events that take place had an origin in mankinds actions or thoughts. How could humans be overpowered by their own creations, and even then, how were they supposedly created in this universe? It doesn't make any sense.

[psi29a]

I think you all are putting wayyyy to much thought into this.

Humans are there, period. IOE is made up by Humans, however now has a will of it's own and doesn't need humans to substain it.

Elementals Kings thus far are just themselves, we don't know if they came before or after Idea or if they where in fact created by humans as well.

[ic3y]

I think you all are putting wayyyy to much thought into this.

Humans are there, period. IOE is made up by Humans, however now has a will of it's own and doesn't need humans to substain it.

Elementals Kings thus far are just themselves, we don't know if they came before or after Idea or if they where in fact created by humans as well.

Alright then!!!

I'm happy to let Miura flesh out the details in due time.

[Istvan]

To me that suggests that the humans created all of this then, and all the events that take place had an origin in mankinds actions or thoughts. How could humans be overpowered by their own creations, and even then, how were they supposedly created in this universe? It doesn't make any sense.

It wouldn't be any problem for them to be stronger then their "creators" since they would have been created by the minds of hundreds of millions of humans over thousands of years. So yeah, they are awesomely powerful, and by now have become almost totally independent of humanity, merely following their own nature as humanity imagined it (in Idea's case, to provide a reason for all the bad things that happen to people). And what makes you so sure that some power must have created humans? Maybe in the world of Berserk we're following the "Humans were created by natural evolution through scientific principles" theory, and so no higher power was needed.

[Phoenix]

True. There is no Idea of Good because humanity never desired reasons for the good things in life, they accepted them because they were, well, good. But, however, they did want reasons for the bad things, so Idea's there to make those.

On that matter, if Idea creates these, what kind of world is there where you feel all this negative feelings without reasons? Why would you need Idea to provide such, since we feel the negative emotions only because of these reasons? Seems to me the pre-Idea universe was an illogical bundle of thoughts and forms, and humans desiring reasons created Idea, and the known Universe, to have these.

[Istvan]

On that matter, if Idea creates these, what kind of world is there where you feel all this negative feelings without reasons? Why would you need Idea to provide such, since we feel the negative emotions only because of these reasons? Seems to me the pre-Idea universe was an illogical bundle of thoughts and forms, and humans desiring reasons created Idea, and the known Universe, to have these.

There were always reasons for the bad things that happened to people, they just weren't always very profound, being things like accidents, random chance, and getting caught up in the actions of others. But people desired something more then that, some more profound reason for all the badness. Even today, the question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" is a major part of theology, and in the Berserk world, people's desire for this reason created Idea, who gets to be the reason that bad things happen to people.

[Phoenix]

If this is true, then what reason does Idea provide? It's still beyond human comprehension. What's the difference?

[psi29a]

How many times do I have to retype the same damn thing? Re-read my posts above about IOE, and Istvan... keep up the good fight.

IOE has no reason other than to enact the will of the human collective subconcious at the point of it's awareness. This is precisely worded because now IOE just is and will forever be. I feel as if we need friggen chart diagrams.

[Phoenix]

IOE has no reason other than to enact the will of the human collective subconcious at the point of it's awareness.

Maybe I should take another apporach. IOE was created by Man. How would you describe the pre-IOE humanity?

[Eldo]

Maybe I should take another apporach. IOE was created by Man. How would you describe the pre-IOE humanity?

Before Idea, there was the egg, and before that, there was the chicken.

[Phoenix]

So the statement that IOE is the God created by Man is next to useless, is it? Usually, the creator comes before the created.

[psi29a]

We really don't know because Berserk's storyline has always been under the influence of IOE. Miura doesn't paint any picture before then, and why does it matter?

Just for giggles I'm going to say that since Miura hasn't touched anything beyond IOE, then that suggests that in the world of Berserk there hasn't ever been a creator. I type this because it makes sense for me. If you want to think about something else then by all means but all of this makes no difference as no impact on the storyline. We don't learn anything new.

The problem is that if`we talk about things that Miura hasen't talked about, then what framework do we have to work with? We would then degrade to the real-world for examples and postulate things that don't really have a bearing on the storyline. Sure it's fun, but why can't we talk about stuff that Miura actually draws and writes about?

For example: Where does Flora and her house exist in the world, or more importantly does it exist at all but only in Abyss? Will Elfhelm be the same?

If so, then why do they have to sail there? Is it because the Abyss is the same size as the 'real world' that you have to goto a certain place then somehow cross over.

[Phoenix]

We really don't know because Berserk's storyline has always been under the influence of IOE. Miura doesn't paint any picture before then, and why does it matter?

It matters because it's interesting.

The problem is that if talk about things that Miura hasen't talked about, then what framework do we have to work with?

Common sense?

We would then degrade to the real-world for examples and postulate things that don't really have a bearing on the storyline. Sure it's fun, but why can't we talk about stuff that Miura actually draws and writes about?

We can, and we do. But why must we stick only to that? Is it a crime to try to make sense out of unexplained things?

For example: Where does Flora and her house exist in the world, or more importantly does it exist at all but only in Abyss? Will Elfhelm be the same?

If so, then why do they have to sail there? Is it because the Abyss is the same size as the 'real world' that you have to goto a certain place then somehow cross over.

It's possible the places they go to are merely the only passageways you can use to get to that specific section of the Interstice (it's supposed to be the Interstice, right o_o?).

But seeing as how Gutts and Caska reside in the Interstice, and don't have problem moving around, most likely the Interstice is just a state of being above the physical world, meaning yes, they'd need to sail to wherever Elfhelm is.

[psi29a]

Fine: there is no god. IOE is the only equivelent. the end can we move on now?

[Phoenix]

Fine: there is no god. IOE is the only equivelent. the end can we move on now?

Shoot, here I was happily talking about Elfhelm. I know what IOE, I'm simply saying that since it was created by Man, there was a world before the Idea of Evil existed, in other words, a world where man did not desire reasons for the things that happened to them.

[psi29a]

you sir, make my brain hurt. again, someone.. bring up the chart diagrams.

We can, and we do. But why must we stick only to that? Is it a crime to try to make sense out of unexplained things?

Not a crime but completely and utterly useless to speculate on a topic in any work of fiction that the author does not touch on. It is an exercise that adds _nothing_ to the overall picture of Berserk in this case.

[Phoenix]

you sir, make my brain hurt. again, someone.. bring up the chart diagrams.

Oh, let me do a prototype:

??? > Man > IOE > Mankind with reasons to suffer.

See, I'm asking about the first 2.

Not a crime but completely and utterly useless to speculate on a topic in any work of fiction that the author does not touch on. It is an exercise that adds _nothing_ to the overall picture of Berserk in this case.

I beg to differ. Speculating on the purpose, identity and powers of that child on the beach can bring endless hours of fun.

[LordMune]

I know what IOE, I'm simply saying that since it was created by Man, there was a world before the Idea of Evil existed, in other words, a world where man did not desire reasons for the things that happened to them.

No, you silly man. Mankind always wished for reasons, but I doubt IOE just popped into existence. The formation of something as hueg as Idea probably took some time, and some humans- I doubt a small neanderthal population could produce something like Idea.

EDIT: It just occurred to me how stupid your line of reasoning is. Just because the effect doesn't exist yet doesn't mean the cause never happened.

Before Idea, there was the egg, and before that, there was the chicken.

The egg came before the chicken.

[Phoenix]

No, you silly man. Mankind always wished for reasons, but I doubt IOE just popped into existence. The formation of something as hueg as Idea probably took some time, and some humans- I doubt a small neanderthal population could produce something like Idea.

Makes sense, but that puts Idea as a continuously evolving creature, not a static, unchanging being.

It still leaves us asking ourselves: if mankind desired reasons for suffering, does this mean they didn't have a reason to suffer before?

This brings the question: did humans create human spirits, or have they always had them?

[psi29a]

as for the first part, I apologize there is more to talk about in this part. All I'm saying is that I think the 4 Elemental Kings have been around longer than IOE and more importantly that as far as I'm concered that there is no 'creator' or 'God' in the Berserk story. I don't presume to know the mind of Miura, however I think us talking about other things that could be are awesome.

As for the second part, the boy on the beach is fair game.. because it was drawn and Miura talks about him.

What I'm saying is that it is folly to talk about things in a finctional work that the author does not even talk about. Miura never once talks or puts any effort into the story about a time 'Before IOE', but spends many man-hours drawing the boy on the beach.

Can you see at all what I'm talking about here?

Before Idea, there was the egg, and before that, there was the chicken.

The egg came before the chicken.

That is incorrect, we have solved this 'paradox' because at some point in evolution the pre-chicken ancestor laid a pre-chicken egg, however what was inside is the chicken.

The chicken came before the egg.

[Phoenix]

as for the first part, I apologize there is more to talk about in this part. All I'm saying is that I think the 4 Elemental Kings have been around longer than IOE and more importantly that as far as I'm concered that there is no 'creator' or 'God' in the Berserk story. I don't presume to know the mind of Miura, however I think us talking about other things that could be are awesome.

Yet there are human souls?

As for the second part, the boy on the beach is fair game.. because it was drawn and Miura talks about him.

What I'm saying is that it is folly to talk about things in a finctional work that the author does not even talk about. Miura never once talks or puts any effort into the story about a time 'Before IOE', but spends many man-hours drawing the boy on the beach.

Can you see at all what I'm talking about here?

I understand you, Psi, but just because Miura doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't fair game. In Miura's world, there *was* a pre-Idea mankind, whether he talks about it or not. Following the laws of logic, there are a few options that we could pick over the status of Man back then.

That is incorrect, we have solved this 'paradox' because at some point in evolution the pre-chicken ancestor laid a pre-chicken egg, however what was inside is the chicken.

The chicken came before the egg.

And what made this chicken inside the egg different from the "pre-chicken"? Feather color? A few more grams of fat? Size of the beak?

[psi29a]

Makes sense, but that puts Idea as a continuously evolving creature, not a static, unchanging being.

It still leaves us asking ourselves: if mankind desired reasons for suffering, does this mean they didn't have a reason to suffer before?

This brings the question: did humans create human spirits, or have they always had them?

That is exactly it, Idea is moving of it's own accord now and has every ability to evolve as a non-static entity.

Yet there are human souls?

Who says there has to be souls? It is perfectly logical in my mind that people don't have souls and that to have a soul is a way for humans for feel superior to other life. That being said, in Berserk the maelstrom pulls their 'soul' into the Vortex. We don't know why but if you would like to post some snaps of the manga for all of us, perhaps we can dive into why it's there and how it formed. It doesn't necessarly mean it was created nor does it imply 'souls' of human existed before IOE.

I understand you, Psi, but just because Miura doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't fair game. In Miura's world, there *was* a pre-Idea mankind, whether he talks about it or not. Following the laws of logic, there are a few options that we could pick over the status of Man back then.

That being the case, sure... but we have no evidence that a) humans had souls and b) there was a creator. So long as we go into this with that clear distinction, we should be ok. Just remember that Idea formed over a long period of time. You cannot pinpoint the exact date in which 'started' manipulating, for all we know.. IOE has always existed since the beginning of Berserk's man-kind.

Think of it this way, pre-humans gave birth to humans (which biologically speaking can happen at multiple areas at the same or differening times) and over a short or long timespan can eventually be able to figure out patterns and assign to those patterns reasons... that could have been the point in time when IOE started forming. Small at first, but as populations grew and people began spending more time thinking about their own plot in life... IOE starts to grow.

In this way IOE is there because of Humans. When Humans didn't exist, neither did IOE. Biologically speaking, life existed before Humans, and more importantly pre-Humans did exist as well but IOE did not.

Things we do not know and can safely assume didn't exist:
*was there a creator, we don't know.
*humans have souls before IOE, we don't know.

And what made this chicken inside the egg different from the "pre-chicken"? Feather color? A few more grams of fat? Size of the beak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_chicken_or_the_egg

The biological answer is simple and precise as I stated above, the details are irrelevent as evolution is a long process spanning many years. My wife holds a degree in biology and said that it is all laid down in freshman year biology.

The theological and philosophy side of the chicken and the egg is an interesting case of causality due to it's natural infinite regression. However, I'm a scientist first and philosopher 2nd so I tend to stick with facts and the biological evidence.

[Eldo]

I want to know why Idea looks like that, and what the properties of the surface of its skin is and what it feels like. The wavelengths of the energy he puts out, and if that energy could be used to split an atom, also, if there is some way to harnest that energy. I also would be interested to know what the Vortex smells like, if and how the God Hand goes to the toilet. Also, how many teeth does Void have? How many snake like hair does Slann have? What would it be like to look at things through Ubrik's eyes? Why does Conrad look like a lepricon? So many questions. Let's speculate to why that is.

[Phoenix]

Who says there has to be souls? It is perfectly logical in my mind that people don't have souls and that to have a soul is a way for humans for feel superior to other life. That being said, in Berserk the maelstrom pulls their 'soul' into the Vortex. We don't know why but if you would like to post some snaps of the manga for all of us, perhaps we can dive into why it's there and how it formed. It doesn't necessarly mean it was created nor does it imply 'souls' of human existed before IOE.

I never said it. I merely said that humans have souls. Whether they had souls before, or humans created these like everything else related to the astral world, was my question.

That being the case, sure... but we have no evidence that a) humans had souls and b) there was a creator. So long as we go into this with that clear distinction, we should be ok. Just remember that Idea formed over a long period of time. You cannot pinpoint the exact date in which 'started' manipulating, for all we know.. IOE has always existed since the beginning of Berserk's man-kind.

Think of it this way, pre-humans gave birth to humans (which biologically speaking can happen at multiple areas at the same or differening times) and over a short or long timespan can eventually be able to figure out patterns and assign to those patterns reasons... that could have been the point in time when IOE started forming. Small at first, but as populations grew and people began spending more time thinking about their own plot in life... IOE starts to grow.

Idea said it gives humans reasons for suffering by manipulating events. What reasons? "Pre-humans" had their reasons for suffering too, only it didn't involve anything supernatural. We don't suffer without a reason, so what is Idea talking about?

In this way IOE is there because of Humans. When Humans didn't exist, neither did IOE. Biologically speaking, life existed before Humans, and more importantly pre-Humans did exist as well but IOE did not.

Things we do not know and can safely assume didn't exist:
*was there a creator, we don't know.
*humans have souls before IOE, we don't know.

This seems to imply humans needed supernatural reasons for suffering. If this is true, what exactly does Idea do? Create apostles?

The biological answer is simple and precise as I stated above, the details are irrelevant as evolution is a long process spanning many years. My wife holds a degree in biology and said that it is all laid down in freshman year biology.

The theological and philosophy side of the chicken and the egg is an interesting case of causality due to it's natural infinite regression. However, I'm a scientist first and philosopher 2nd so I tend to stick with facts and the biological evidence.

See, this is scientifically impossible, because you can't define a species in a generation. That egg with the chicken was laid by a chicken. Millions of years before, another type of bird laid an egg that had that other kind of bird inside. It's scientifically impossible for a pre-chicken to lay an egg with a chicken because this would imply one hell of a mutation.

I want to know why Idea looks like that, and what the properties of the surface of its skin is and what it feels like. The wavelengths of the energy he puts out, and if that energy could be used to split an atom, also, if there is some way to harnest that energy.

Ooh, I doubt it, since the Vortex isn't ruled by the physical laws.

I also would be interested to know what the Vortex smells like,

Physical senses don't apply to the Vortex, but it's just my humble opinion.

if and how the God Hand goes to the toilet.

Nah. They don't eat anymore.

Also, how many teeth does Void have? How many snake like hair does Slann have?

I don't know, did you count?

What would it be like to look at things through Ubrik's eyes?

Purple-ish.

Why does Conrad look like a lepricon?

He wanted it. Then again, he was born, raised and transformed with that idea.

So many questions. Let's speculate to why that is.

Whatever floats your boat.

[LordMune]

Before Idea, there was the egg, and before that, there was the chicken.

The egg came before the chicken.

That is incorrect, we have solved this 'paradox' because at some point in evolution the pre-chicken ancestor laid a pre-chicken egg, however what was inside is the chicken.

The chicken came before the egg.

A pre-chicken laid an egg that would hatch into a chicken- at precisely what point in time does an egg become a chicken?
For all we know, the essence of what an egg is has not changed since late pre-chicken times, only the creature hatching from it, and by that logic the egg came first, and then a modern chicken hatched from it.