Religion does more harm than good - poll

[psi29a]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Stor ... 45,00.html

More people in Britain think religion causes harm than believe it does good, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. It shows that an overwhelming majority see religion as a cause of division and tension - greatly outnumbering the smaller majority who also believe that it can be a force for good.

The poll also reveals that non-believers outnumber believers in Britain by almost two to one. It paints a picture of a sceptical nation with massive doubts about the effect religion has on society: 82% of those questioned say they see religion as a cause of division and tension between people. Only 16% disagree. The findings are at odds with attempts by some religious leaders to define the country as one made up of many faith communities.

Most people have no personal faith, the poll shows, with only 33% of those questioned describing themselves as "a religious person". A clear majority, 63%, say that they are not religious - including more than half of those who describe themselves as Christian.

Older people and women are the most likely to believe in a god, with 37% of women saying they are religious, compared with 29% of men.

The findings come at the end of a year in which multiculturalism and the role of different faiths in society has been at the heart of a divisive political debate.

But a spokesman for the Church of England denied yesterday that mainstream religion was the source of tension. He also insisted that the "impression of secularism in this country is overrated".

"You also have to bear in mind how society has changed. It is more difficult to go to church now than it was. Communities are displaced, people work longer hours - it's harder to fit it in. It doesn't alter the fact that the Church of England will get 1 million people in church every Sunday, which is larger than any other gathering in the country."

The Right Rev Bishop Dunn, Bishop of Hexham and Newcastle, added: "The perception that faith is a cause of division can often be because faith is misused for other uses and other agendas."

The poll suggests, however, that in modern Britain religious observance has become a habit reserved for special occasions. Only 13% of those questioned claimed to visit a place of worship at least once a week, with 43% saying they never attended religious services.

Non-Christians are the most regular attenders - 29% say they attend a religious service at least weekly. Yet Christmas remains a religious festival for many people, with 54% of Christians questioned saying they intended to go to a religious service over the holiday period.

Well-off people are more likely to plan to visit a church at Christmas: 64% of those in the highest economic categories expect to attend, compared with 43% of those in the bottom group.

Britain's generally tolerant attitude to religion is underlined by the small proportion who say the country is best described as a Christian one. Only 17% think this. The clear majority, 62%, agree Britain is better described as "a religious country of many faiths".

ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,006 adults aged 18+ by telephone between December 12 and 13. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

It has been brought up before in several different contexts, but this is the first real polling of the question dead on. Is the source of tension religion itself, or some other external factor?

[newbified]

I don't necessarily believe that religion itself causes more harm than good. I however believe that as with any type of organized group there are those with more extreme views and the true idea of what religion was supposed to teach has become lost and muddled by such people.

Learning good morals from something like the bible and using them to guide your life (not to control and dictate it utterly) can be a reinforcement on how not to break actual state and federal laws (as many of the laws we abide by as a nation are taken from these works).

However something that is often lost in translation could be tolerance, and religion can often times be used to push political agendas. Homosexuals are of course the first that come to mind, and the restriction of their rights to marry, and in some areas adopt a child.

Having creationism (read Intelligent Design) being taught in High Schools with Evolution as an after thought, or even with a disclaimer in the front of the books to alert children it's a theory that has not been proven. Our fore-fathers designated a seperation of church and state for a good reason. When the public schools are funded by funds gathered from the public themselves as a part of their overall funding, some of them of course not believing in an all knowing all powerful being who created us, and yet their children still being taught to believe this ideology as another option.

There are also those who will commit murder, genocide, steal, rape, and multiple other heinous acts under the guise of religion or doing the work of god.

And I really don't know where I'm going with this at this point, so I'll just say that's it for now and maybe add more later.

[Libaax]

Religon isnt ruining the world,people are.


Thats why i dislike these so called islamist extremist, its very simple of you cant follow the first rule which is dont kill, then you dont believe in what in the god you say you believe in.

I dislike the christian extremist as much, they kill even more in name of god.

Everytime i see Bush talk about how much god tells him to do this and that,it makes my skin crawl.


Faith are one of few things that can make people better.


If there werent some good people that believed in something greater than themselves the world would be even worse than it is now.

Before the athiest and co attack me, i didnt say you have to believe in god to be good.





People are just too good to do horrible things in god's name, the history of humanity shows that.

[Skullkracker]

Well said Libaax

[Devil_Dante]

I don't think religion can cause any good at all. The last time I did something good because I believe in god is ... well never. I don't think anybody does a good deed just because they believe.

[MrFelony]

I actually saw an interesting conversation about this topic briefly while i was watching television this morning. probably the favorite thing said was that atheists and atheist governments have probably killed more people in the 20th century than people have been killed for religion...he pointed to hitler, mao, and the soviet government. as libaax said, its not religion, it's the people. whether or not religion existed, people would still find reasons to kill each other.

dante, you should have come to church this morning . Do you realise how many missions and organizations are run by churchs designed to help benefit the world, at least in UCC (united church of christ, a protestant and very welcoming and open [liberal] church) churches. my dad preaches about how its a christian's duty to do good in the world and spread good. the smallest things are encouraged because i strive to be a good christian, such as being a patient driver for example lol. the pastor of the church i sometimes attend while im at school personally visited a small town in mexico where his presence helped insure that the people who were protestors for workers rights wouldnt get abused by government officials (or something like that). the kids in our church support the Heffer fund where they send animals like chickens, llama's, goats, cows, and other farm animals to small impoverished villages. just because you don't do good things because of god doesn't mean others don't.

now I won't say that none of this would go on without god, but I doubt that all of it would, or that people would be as organized, cause while my church it small, the one i attend at school supports many different international projects.

[Libaax]

Well said Libaax

I am not the biggest believer in the world , i have some days i doubt the ways of god but first people kills and does horrible things in his name and now they blame him for thier mistakes.

[psi29a]

I actually saw an interesting conversation about this topic briefly while i was watching television this morning. probably the favorite thing said was that atheists and atheist governments have probably killed more people in the 20th century than people have been killed for religion...he pointed to hitler, mao, and the soviet government. as libaax said, its not religion, it's the people. whether or not religion existed, people would still find reasons to kill each other..

Don't believe everything you see on TV. I can let Killfile fill you in on the rest but here is a famous quote from Mein Kampf.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Another popular one is this, from a speech in 1922:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

I'll give you Chairman Mao and Communist Russia (they where professional atheists after all). Let us also remember the Crusades as well, the killings on both sides. The Reconquesta of Spain, and the Inquisition . Also the 1666 fires of London which is the columination of the 30 years war in which the Puritans finally left England for the Americas after mounting bloody insurrection against the Church of England.

The slaughtering of whole nations in South America under Cortez and then later Pizzaro in the name of God. The population of Incans and Aztecs went from 25.3 million in 1519, to a scant 1 million in 1605.

Let us not just look at only the 20th century.

[Libaax]

You can prove in millions ways how MAN has done horrible things in Gods name but what its the point of that ?


Its not like anyone believes that all those people that say God told to do this and that.


Just like now people with power can justify how they want what they are doing in Gods name, people with no power cant do anything to stop them.

[psi29a]

You can prove in millions ways how MAN has done horrible things in Gods name but what its the point of that ?


Its not like anyone believes that all those people that say God told to do this and that.


Just like now people with power can justify how they want what they are doing in Gods name, people with no power cant do anything to stop them.

Belief presupposes faith. Fact, Hitler was Christian. Fact, Richard the Lionheart killed hundreds of Muslims. Fact, Pizzaro & Cortez in the name of the Pope converted or killed in the name of God, destroying two Meso-American civilizations.

They all believed in what they where doing was the 'right' thing, and more importantly did it in God's name. What you choose to 'believe' is your own business, however it is apart of our history and we shouldn't dilute what happened nor its implications on our society today.

I'm not dismissing the atrocities committed under chairman Mao or in Soviet Russia, but don't you dare dismiss the transitivities committed in the name of God.

We can all agree that Religion has been used to control people and power, that was part of the Pope's power up until the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment (Age of Reason). We should critically examine the reason of tension between religions and more importantly it's role in society.

I'll give an example: Why is not alright to let children play GTA, but it is perfectly acceptable to give children copies of the Left Behind video game? Why is ok to let our children watch violence on TV, yet keep taboo anything having to do with sex ?

[Libaax]

I didnt do that.

I even said in my first post

"People are just too good to do horrible things in god's name, the history of humanity shows that "



But whats the point of try to prove what all these people with power has done in Gods name?

To blame God for what murderous people do?


I would think most of us know thanks to history classes and stuff what people has done in gods name through history of man.



Trust me i know what horrible things people do in gods name, even now i hear what islamist terrorist do in my home country, killing people in the street cause they dont believe in God enough.


I hate when people says they do things in god name but i dont like as much people blaming God for what HUMANS do.

I have read athiest and co do that, first they say there is no god then they blame him for everything thats just.....


I am not like the dude in evolution versus god thread you made recently, i dont have blind faith but it just gets to me sometimes when people do stuff in his name and then blames him for everything.



Just as i said in my first post religion doesnt do any harm or any good, people does that. They choose if they wanna use religion as something good or something bad.

Its unfortunate that most humans with power atleast use religion as a weapon to kill other or to gain power.


I believe in god and choose to use him as something good.

I learned from religion how to become a good person, how to learn right from wrong.

Despite what some westerns think, i and surely many others learned from Islam and the koraan how to become to a good person.





When i see Bush or those terrorist that is called islamist terrorist for a sick reason when they arent islamist cause they dont believe in Allah.
Anyway when i see the two sides talking about doing this and that cause of god, i become so angry cause no religion say you have to kill people, it even says you shall not kill another.


What i say might sound naive and clichè or something but thats how i feel about this.

[Skullkracker]

I'd just like to add a few things to this thread that I've heard recently.

I've seen the Mission today. It's a very good film from the 80's with Robert de Niro, Jeremy Irons, Liam Neeson, music by Morricone, and a few awards won.
To cut the story short, it is about how jesuit priests were working among the native tribes, and how they struggled to protect them from slavery and political fights, and died for what they believed in.

At the end, the Spanish ambassador has a remark when discussing the massacre of indians, that "this is what the world is like", and the other ambassador (from the Vatican as I understood says: "no, we made it this way".

This morning the pastor said a very simple, but important sentence: "religion without benignity is useless, worthless for God"

[Libaax]

You can prove in millions ways how MAN has done horrible things in Gods name but what its the point of that ?


Its not like anyone believes that all those people that say God told to do this and that.


Just like now people with power can justify how they want what they are doing in Gods name, people with no power cant do anything to stop them.

Belief presupposes faith. Fact, Hitler was Christian. Fact, Richard the Lionheart killed hundreds of Muslims. Fact, Pizzaro & Cortez in the name of the Pope converted or killed in the name of God, destroying two Meso-American civilizations.

They all believed in what they where doing was the 'right' thing, and more importantly did it in God's name. What you choose to 'believe' is your own business, however it is apart of our history and we shouldn't dilute what happened nor its implications on our society today.

I'm not dismissing the atrocities committed under chairman Mao or in Soviet Russia, but don't you dare dismiss the transitivities committed in the name of God.

We can all agree that Religion has been used to control people and power, that was part of the Pope's power up until the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment (Age of Reason). We should critically examine the reason of tension between religions and more importantly it's role in society.

I'll give an example: Why is not alright to let children play GTA, but it is perfectly acceptable to give children copies of the Left Behind video game? Why is ok to let our children watch violence on TV, yet keep taboo anything having to do with sex ?

I pretty much agree with you on the violence and sex.


Just wanted to say in my long post before this one that i didnt dismiss the transitivities committed in the name of God.


Just think that you shouldn't blame everything on religion but the people that use religion as tool to control people or even worse as we see in the world today.

[Devil_Dante]

dante, you should have come to church this morning . Do you realise how many missions and organizations are run by churchs designed to help benefit the world, at least in UCC (united church of christ, a protestant and very welcoming and open [liberal] church) churches. my dad preaches about how its a christian's duty to do good in the world and spread good. the smallest things are encouraged because i strive to be a good christian, such as being a patient driver for example lol. the pastor of the church i sometimes attend while im at school personally visited a small town in mexico where his presence helped insure that the people who were protestors for workers rights wouldnt get abused by government officials (or something like that). the kids in our church support the Heffer fund where they send animals like chickens, llama's, goats, cows, and other farm animals to small impoverished villages. just because you don't do good things because of god doesn't mean others don't.

now I won't say that none of this would go on without god, but I doubt that all of it would, or that people would be as organized, cause while my church it small, the one i attend at school supports many different international projects.

Let's say I do good stuff, not because I believe in god, ... do I still need to go to church?

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Hitler has nothing to do with God or anything that relates to good or the light. In his sick, twisted dillusions maybe he thought his ways were good by slaughtering millions of God's proclaimed people "The Jews"(when in fact christians think of the jews as a holy people and would only think to protect them/such are the ways of the USA). It was believed that Hitler was such a powerful public speaker because he was demon possesed.

If Hitler had anything to do with God or anything of good he would have follwed the laws, boundries and teachings of his so called "Christian" herritage. This was merly another attempt from Hitler to try and disgrace that which is good.

[Skullkracker]

if I remember my history well anough, antisemitism was already rooted in Germany after the first world war due to the backstab theory and other such concepts
the vision of a common enemy helped Hitler get to power in the first place

So: how did Hitler get into a discussion about religion?

[square-enix]

I’d have to say religion is more so of a problem then what humans do, although I’m not disregarding it. Assume that we take religion out of the picture, what other organization has influence over billions of people? Who else has the power to piss off millions of Muslims? (G.W. Bush excluded)
It’s the beliefs that have been forced down the majority of the population that cause the daily worldwide crimes in the name of God.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." — Steven Weinberg

Learning good morals from something like the bible and using them to guide your life (not to control and dictate it utterly) can be a reinforcement on how not to break actual state and federal laws

Then laws need to be more tightly enforced if they need reinforcement from a book that speaks of magic apples and talking snakes.

Do you realise how many missions and organizations are run by churchs designed to help benefit the world

Is Global warming still on the rise? O that’s right, there’s no need to care for such trivial matters when God and his heavenly court of angels shall appear and save us from this inferno hellhole. Are those Christian missionaries sent to Africa doing anything? Well, they’re actually helping to spread AIDS. AIDS is an STI but yet they ‘teach’ them not to use condoms because it’s unholy.

It is because of religious zeal in the past the caused areas like South America and Africa to be in piss poor conditions. Don’t make it seem as if religion is doing anything good.

now I won't say that none of this would go on without god, but I doubt that all of it would, or that people would be as organized

What of nomadic groups? They were organized without a God but they helped each other to survive. They weren’t ‘lost’, ‘evil’ and didn’t care just for themselves as often preached.

But whats the point of try to prove what all these people with power has done in Gods name?

To blame God for what murderous people do?

So, you’re implying that people who justify their actions in the name of God are by default murderous? Take the North/South Ireland conflict. They’re killing each other daily because the population is split between different Christian branches. They each see the other has heretics because they do not belong to their sect and this was caused by religious differences. These people wouldn’t be ‘murderous’ if religion were out of the picture.

but i dont like as much people blaming God for what HUMANS do.

The actions of these humans are affected by their religious convictions. Their convictions were shoved down their throats at the age of 5 by their parents who preached that God is good. Because God is perfect, their actions are good.

In his sick, twisted dillusions maybe he thought his ways were good by slaughtering millions of God's proclaimed people

Because your interpretation of the Bible is any better then Hitler’s? Besides the Bible depicts the Jewish people as evil and that they shall burn in hell for their non-belief.

If Hitler had anything to do with God or anything of good he would have follwed the laws, boundries and teachings of his so called "Christian" herritage.

Hitler got most of his ideals from the OT and medieval doctrines. You dare question the Bible and church?

[psi29a]

So: how did Hitler get into a discussion about religion?

If Hitler had anything to do with God or anything of good he would have follwed the laws, boundries and teachings of his so called "Christian" herritage. This was merly another attempt from Hitler to try and disgrace that which is good.

I will point you both to my post above citing MrFelony as he brought him into the picture claiming he was an atheist. He was a God fearing man who very much 'believed' in what he was doing was right. That is history and we should all do well to remember it.

Richard the Lion heart for example also did what he felt was right when he exterminated Muslims.

Granted I nor anyone else likes what he did, but he did it any way and in the name of God. Deal with it.

[Skullkracker]

hmmm, OK, I guess I'll have to take my time once and chew myself through all of them posts, but I can already say:
about Hitler: you cannot blame religion as such for what a madman did for power and a new world order. It had othing to do with it IMO.
did he believe in God? who can tell? as the Bible says (don't ask me where exactly), the devils believe in God also, and they fear Him...

about Richard: well there is still a constant battle for the Holy Land...makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[psi29a]

about Hitler: you cannot blame religion as such for what a madman did for power and a new world order. It had othing to do with it IMO.

I'm not blaming religion for his action, for those are his own. He did use religion as an enabler for his actions. He did believe in God, and did believe that Jews in Germany did not honor the new covenant and there by traitors to Christianity. Because of that, he implemented his plans to expunged them from the planet.

Things happen that we don't like in God's name, it doesn't make the person committing the acts any less of a Christian. It is ok to say he was a bad Christian and that he hopefully burns in hell, but do not say he was not a Christian.

did he believe in God? who can tell? as the Bible says (don't ask me where exactly), the devils believe in God also, and they fear Him...

Yes he did believe in God, we can tell because of Mein Kempf, his letters to loved ones, and in his speeches. He was on very good terms with then Pope of the Vatican. Why do you think the Vatican never poo pooed Hitler?

about Richard: well there is still a constant battle for the Holy Land...makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Yes, because that makes his actions any better?

[Kekiro]

Hitler has nothing to do with God or anything that relates to good or the light. In his sick, twisted dillusions maybe he thought his ways were good by slaughtering millions of God's proclaimed people "The Jews"(when in fact christians think of the jews as a holy people and would only think to protect them/such are the ways of the USA). It was believed that Hitler was such a powerful public speaker because he was demon possesed.

If Hitler had anything to do with God or anything of good he would have follwed the laws, boundries and teachings of his so called "Christian" herritage. This was merly another attempt from Hitler to try and disgrace that which is good.

these laws were all written by humans.

about the "islamist extremists" there is a part in the coran that says its ok to defend yourself if you are "attacked". those muslims believe that the u.s and israel took their land from them and forced them to move, which should be enough reason to start a war.

[Albator]

They believe that Israel and US took lands from them and forced them to leave. Who do you refer to by "them" exactly? Oh and when you're at it, can you remind me the story of the foundation of the state of Israel again? My memory is not what it used to be.

[Libaax]

Hitler has nothing to do with God or anything that relates to good or the light. In his sick, twisted dillusions maybe he thought his ways were good by slaughtering millions of God's proclaimed people "The Jews"(when in fact christians think of the jews as a holy people and would only think to protect them/such are the ways of the USA). It was believed that Hitler was such a powerful public speaker because he was demon possesed.

If Hitler had anything to do with God or anything of good he would have follwed the laws, boundries and teachings of his so called "Christian" herritage. This was merly another attempt from Hitler to try and disgrace that which is good.

these laws were all written by humans.

about the "islamist extremists" there is a part in the coran that says its ok to defend yourself if you are "attacked". those muslims believe that the u.s and israel took their land from them and forced them to move, which should be enough reason to start a war.

That doesnt mean they can start some kind of holy war and kill innocent people.


The coran doesnt say you can kill people at will no matter how much these so called islamist terrorist wants to tell people they are doing in God's name.


Also not many of al qaida for example is from palestine so they cant say israel took thier country away.

They dont care about jerusalem for religion reasons, they want to go war on their hate for US and israel and use islam as their excuse.


They are only monsters that feed on people's fears just like every other extremist that did things in religion's name.



Dont make excuses for murderers no matter what religion they say go to war for.

[psi29a]

Dont make excuses for murderers no matter what religion they say go to war for.

Here Here! I agree totally.

Just so that our American friends are clear on this, Iran (which supports Hezbollah) are Shia (Shi'te, etc) while al Qeada and Taliban are Sunni. Please don't lump them together. What scares me is that our incoming intel chief doesn't know the difference. Sorry, rant for another thread perhaps.

The two are not exactly on friendliest of terms and are yet another source of strife in the world. Can anyone more well versed give us insight into this division?

[Libaax]

The sunni vs shia thing is soo stupid that it makes me crazy.

Its not enough people are getting killed for several religion reasons around the world they must make another one to kill themselves.


I have never bothered to listen when people explained the diffrence cause its stupid,why must the same people find a reason to divide them.




It reminds me too much of the clan system that started the civil war in somalia.....




You its funny i was watching Al Jazeera today , where they showed pictures from somalia, the women dress like in saud arabia ever since the islamist took control of the capital.

Its funny how a country that religion never was the biggest factor suddenly people talk like they are in Al qaida, talk about a fast change cause of fear or following the current.


If someone cared before this could have been easily avoided, instead talking now when its too late and only cuase Etiopia wanna do something about the islamist.


Its a sad world when you rather see an islamist terrorist ruin your home country before a country like US bombs it to pieces like Iraq....