Japan can suck my wang (derailed into comic book discussion)

[Anonymous]

Disclaimer: I will me making lots and lots of generalizations here so if you happen to be japanese and do not fall within these generalizations then I ask that you not be offended by them. I am far from being racist so I hope this isn't misconstrued in an offensive matter. If you do happen to fall within the category of japanese I'll explain below then you can definitely suck my dick.

I was collecting the newspapers at work the other day and I glanced upon a small picture of some manga in the NY Times. Needless to say, this caught my eye so I stopped for a couple of seconds to read the article. It was about the current trends in manga overseas and it was quite shocking and pissed me off a bit.

It mentioned how the best selling manga in Japan contained racist content towards both, the Koreans and the Chinese. I can't remember it word by word, but one of the quoted lines from the manga said something along the lines of there being absolutely no value in Chinese culture/lifestyle. The picture I mentioned earlier contained two generic Japanese/anime characters (big eyes, long and bright hair, small mouths, etc) talking to a Korean character who was drawn in a much more stereotypical manner (horizontal lines for eyes, short and black hair, large/defined cheekbones, etc). I couldn't care less about the physical differences between Japan and Korea, but the fact that that's how japanese interpret themselves in comparison is ludicrous.

I'm not unfamiliar with racism between different countries of the same race (I'm from South America) but to know that this is a best selling title in Japan is just utterly depressing and something unheard of for me. I can add that to the list of reasons why Japan sucks, along with the mistreatment of women and their piss poor work ethics.

Discuss.

[LordMune]

Racism sucks, so in extension Japan (or rather a percentage of the japanese population) sucks.

[Kazure]

Why the Japs draw themselves with such huge eyes was always a puzzle to me. I'm Chinese and yea, by eyes might be smaller than the average. But the Japanese are no different.

I'm curious if that really is the best selling crap or just some kind of warped journalism. (Even if it is the NY Times)

[Oro]

If you ask me that just fucking bullshit,in recent years anime and manga is getting really popular in north america which is annoying ppl who dont want to a japanese influence on there children,i have read lots of good manga and frankly i have never come across something like this,even if they are making fun of other countires in few mangas there are thousands of manga where they are making fun of there own culture.Most likey its warped journalism,so parent will there children away from manga and more into american gayass comics like Superman.

[panasonic]

ya, the japs have always been bastards. they still try to put up the whole we didnt do jack squat to korea and china in ww2. theyve been brainwashed to the core, not to mention theyre just asking for trouble when they refused to see the chinese politician a few months ago for peace talking just cos it was a lady

[Femto]

Oro: I think the trend started pretty recently actually, four months I believe it was said.

Honestly, I doubt that americans are intimidated by anime and manga. Truth is, Japan needs the US because there's more money to be made here than over there, there's no reason for the US to be afraid of them. Regardless, unless you happen to live in Japan, there's no way confirm/deny the veracity of this information by what you read.

I don't want to turn this into a US vs. Japan thing, but don't bash on american comics either. Sure, they're plagued by continuity and a general lack of focus, but stuff like Watchmen or Sin City just about destroy most of the manga I've read.

The article should be online somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

PS: I'm not looking for a flame war here, just a good discussion.

[panasonic]

actually, in asian news, not sure if americans get this kind of stuff, the japs were tryin to put this new schoolbook in that completely changed ww2 history. sure they bashed hitler, but they made themselves look like heroes goin in to "save" the chinese when in reality killing them. same for korea. so the point is, theyre bastards, and only stopped the distribution of the textbooks when the UN put pressure on them and embargos were bein placed on them

[Oro]

Bowling king is pretty popular Manhwa started few years back,it has lots of pages where they are bashing japanese ppl and manga.

[Femto]

The article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/inter ... omics.html

The picture I mentioned:



It was indeed four months since these titles have become best sellers.

I didn't read the whole article before throwing the paper away in disgust, but now is a good time I guess.

EDIT: I'm not saying that Korea or China don't do the same thing, but I don't see it as an excuse to take this kind of behavios lightly.

[Oro]

We can do nothing to change this,Its human nature,every race thinks that they are better than the other one.

[Starnum]

Um, there's no reason to hold this one manga, against all of Japan. Also, unless we're actually able to read the manga for ourselves, there's no way to be sure that the article wasn't blown out of proportion. We know how good our media is at that. Granted, that goes both ways, I'm just skeptical of this. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not calling you racist at all, but it's seemed to me that you have a grudge against the Japanese for some reason. I don't understand it, I think Japan is very interesting, and pretty damn cool. Also, what do you mean "piss poor work ethic". From everything I've gathered about the Japanese, they're very diligent and determined people, with great work ethic. Surely they're better than us, God knows they kick our ass academically. I mean, you have to pass an exam, just to go to high school. They're also mostly well behaved in public, and don't go around making a scene and being really loud, like you see in America all the time. I find that kind of stuff really annoying. Not that this justifies the aforementioned allegations, but we have a lot of really popular comedians here in America, who base their entire routine on racist jokes...are they not funny? If not, then why are they so famous, and why do people laugh at their jokes so much? I hate racism very much...however, this one manga has nothing to do with the whole of Japan. Even if what's being accused is true, and it is popular, it still doesn't represent the majority of Japan, or even the entirety of the fans of the manga. There are some things I like, but that doesn't mean I completely agree with everything about it. I don't know *shrugs*, just my two cents.

Oh, and the way anime and manga characters look has nothing to do with how the Japanese view themselves, it's meant to generalize humanity. If anything, it's meant to defuse racial barriers. It's simply a style they find appealing.

[Buzkashi]

I thought they made their eyes bigger in manga cause they see bigger eyes as beautiful. Just like that one Japanese model who surgically made her eyes larger.

[Starnum]

Exactly, it's an issue of style. They find it appealing. I seriously doubt they're diluted enough to think that's how they look. Besides, in anime and manga, most of them, they make all races look that way. It's not an issue of the race, it's that they're anime/manga characters.

[Femto]

Starnum: Why take a single book against all of Japan?

Because it's a best seller, that's why. If it were just another manga it'd make no difference, but when a racist book is at the top of the charts then there's a problem with the way that particular group of people think. Let's not forget that the manga market over there is much richer than the one over here, so you can't compare the percentage or people that read comic books here to the one over there.

Blown out of proportion? This is a small article in the NY Times that most people that read it won't really care about, why the need to blow it out of proportion? I don't think that the Times is a very trust-worthy source myself, but if you look at the facts, the quotes, the numbers, etc, you'll see that there is truth behind the article. I mean, the comic book in question is titled "Hating the Korean Wave" for god's sake.

As I said, I didn't want this to turn into US vs. Japan debate, but since you went there already, I might as well. A while ago, my boss explained this little thing in the US called the american dream, how anyone can get to the top through nothing but hard work and dedication. He used himself as an example. Now I've heard of this before obviously, but it's never been explained to me in such great detail. Japan doesn't have that. They have a hierarchical society based on age and sex, where every upstart is the same no matter what their capabilites are. It doesn't matter if you work better than others, because you'll still go throught he same process everyone does, not to mention that you'll be exploited and pissed on in the way. I won't talk about this too much because frankly, I haven't lived there and I don't know the minor details. I've gathered this from accounts of people that have lived there, as well as documentaries, some of which I'm sure you've seen as well.

Academically, well, just read/watch GTO. It's a manga/cartoon, but it's social commentary and it makes you think about stuff. Well behaved? More like opressed by the hierarchical system I mentioned before. Let's not even talk about their treatment of women.

And the thing with racist jokes is that they are just that, jokes. They are not meant to be taken seriously because they are comedians doing a routine. It's not the same as Spiderman calling the Black Panther a filthy nigger.

As for myself, I hold no grudges against anybody, certainly not because of their country of origin or race. What does bother me however, is every idiot that thinks Japan is god's gift to the world and is blind to how their little society works.

And lol @ how anime characters look in a certain way to generalize humanity. How does that make sense in a racist book whose drawings stereotype Koreans so harshly? How fitting also, that they decide to "generalize humanity" in a way that looks nothing like them.

Oro: That just seems like an excuse for that kind of behavior.

[Starnum]

Because it's a best seller, that's why. If it were just another manga it'd make no difference, but when a racist book is at the top of the charts then there's a problem with the way that particular group of people think. Let's not forget that the manga market over there is much richer than the one over here, so you can't compare the percentage or people that read comic books here to the one over there.

Okay, so do you have any actual manga sales charts for Japan, so that we can be sure that it's a best seller? Also...

Even if what's being accused is true, and it is popular, it still doesn't represent the majority of Japan, or even the entirety of the fans of the manga. There are some things I like, but that doesn't mean I completely agree with everything about it.

Granted, manga is much more popular in Japan, but I still don't think that means the majority of them are racist. However, if the main focus of the manga is racist material, then that's different. I could be wrong, that isn't something I'm ruling out.

Blown out of proportion? This is a small article in the NY Times that most people that read it won't really care about, why the need to blow it out of proportion? I don't think that the Times is a very trust-worthy source myself, but if you look at the facts, the quotes, the numbers, etc, you'll see that there is truth behind the article. I mean, the comic book in question is titled "Hating the Korean Wave" for god's sake.

The size of the article means nothing. My point was that the author could be taking things out of context, and warping the facts. However, I've also considered that it could just be a really horrible manga. If it really is so bad, and actually is very popular, then that's a shame. However, it doesn't neccessarily mean that the majority of the Japanese people are racist, was my only point. However, I've never lived there, so perhaps they are *shrugs*.

As I said, I didn't want this to turn into US vs. Japan debate, but since you went there already, I might as well. A while ago, my boss explained this little thing in the US called the american dream, how anyone can get to the top through nothing but hard work and dedication. He used himself as an example. Now I've heard of this before obviously, but it's never been explained to me in such great detail. Japan doesn't have that. They have a hierarchical society based on age and sex, where every upstart is the same no matter what their capabilites are. It doesn't matter if you work better than others, because you'll still go throught he same process everyone does, not to mention that you'll be exploited and pissed on in the way. I won't talk about this too much because frankly, I haven't lived there and I don't know the minor details. I've gathered this from accounts of people that have lived there, as well as documentaries, some of which I'm sure you've seen as well.

Academically, well, just read/watch GTO. It's a manga/cartoon, but it's social commentary and it makes you think about stuff. Well behaved? More like opressed by the hierarchical system I mentioned before. Let's not even talk about their treatment of women.

Good points, which are worth considering. I don't really know from experience either, so I can't dispute what you say. Although, I've read all of GTO, but it's still just a fictional story, so we shouldn't base too much off of it. Also, the reports I've seen show that Japan scores higher academically than we do, however, that's not really the issue here, so I guess it doesn't matter. It is a shame that we graduate people who can't even read though. Don't get me wrong, I love America, and it would be best if we didn't turn this into a contest. That was not my intent. I just find the Japanese, among many cultures, to be interesting. I've found that most people everywhere suck, so I don't really focus on any group more than another.

And the thing with racist jokes is that they are just that, jokes. They are not meant to be taken seriously because they are comedians doing a routine. It's not the same as Spiderman calling the Black Panther a filthy nigger.

Good point, if these accusations are true, then it wasn't in gest, and that's bad.

What does bother me however, is every idiot that thinks Japan is god's gift to the world and is blind to how their little society works.

I hope you don't think I'm one of these people, because I'm definitely not. I don't think they're any better or worse than us. All cultures have their pros and cons.

And lol @ how anime characters look in a certain way to generalize humanity. How does that make sense in a racist book whose drawings stereotype Koreans so harshly? How fitting also, that they decide to "generalize humanity" in a way that looks nothing like them.

Well, this manga is obviously an exception my friend. That's apparent by the scan you've shown. I meant most anime/manga, where no racial distinctions are made. It's supposed to just be a style. The Korean guy is obviously not being drawn in the same style here, and that bothers me. I fear this book may be as bad as is being claimed, and I just hope it's not as popular as they say. If it is, then that's really a shame. As I've said, no matter where you go, most people suck. *shrugs*

BTW, I didn't express the bit about you having a grudge correctly earlier. What I meant, was that you seem to dislike the anime style of art. I apologize for how that came across. I can agree with you on the low detail anime style, like this crappy manga here, and pokemon and stuff. However, I really like the high detail anime style, like Tenjou Tenge and stuff like that *shrugs*.

[Femto]

The reason why it's easy to pidgeon-hole a large group of people from a best selling title (I won't bother looking up for proof, it's the Times so they some degree of credibility) is because it reflects their pop culture. Not everyone plays video games in the US, but you can gather a lot from this country by the fact that GTA is such a huge hit. It's the same thing.

As for GTO, as I said, it's social commentary and I read in an interview with the author that most of the stuff was based on personal experience and are direct criticisms to that specific system. It might not be exactly true, but it gives you a good idea of how things work over there.

I do dislike generic anime, because it's just all the same. The big eyes, the small mouths, the hair, the bodies, the shape of the faces, it's all the same and it's just repeated over and over with no attempt at innovating. Sure, you'll get a Toriyama here and there, but the large majority of titles follow the same guidelines in character designs as the next. One can pick out the minor details of why they're not exactly the same, but there's nowhere near the variety of styles compared to american comics. This stands true for personalities as well, where most of the characters are just variations from characters of movies as old as Seven Samurai. Have you seen Aqua Teen Hunger Force? It's shitty animation, but it's really funny I have a hard time describing these characters personalities because they're just so different. I feel like Japan is milking the same thing over and over again, and that's specially true now that anime has become so mainstream over here.

You do come accross as a wasian at times, if you'll pardon the terminology, but you're definitely not blind and very open to argument. I used to love Japan for no other reason than I liked anime as well, but when you really look at their way of living, you realize there's something weird going on there. I thought it was different or exotic or who knows what, but the more you learn about it, the more you realize how weak morals they have. I love how the comic book industry thrives over there, whereas here it seems to struggle. I love how open they are on censorship, but even that is a mixed bag when you take other things in account.

In any case, I fail to see how generalizing the whole world in their art style is good with this kind of thinking behind it. It seem hypocritical. I don't understand why they decided to draw huge eyes like that when nobody in the world has them. I know it's not something as simple-minded as "they wish they were white," but it's just hard to put my finger on why they'd do that. I don't know if you read the article, but they make an interesting point on japanese trying to cut ties from Asia and be more like the western world.

[Ambient]

quite an eyefull....
catch my drift?
tee hee
anyhoo, lets face it folks! racism exists!!

[Femto]

If you were living in Japan you would not be allowed to say that.

Or anything for that matter.

Yeah, of course racism exists, but it's not often that you see it so blatantly in comic books.

[Ambient]

Femto" If you were living in Japan you would not be allowed to say that.

well, if that was the case i dun think there would be a manga suggestive of anything racially discriminitive like that

i mean, you didnt notice the black characters in anime? like dbz?
mr popo and his large pink hot dog lips?
i mean c'mon!! or in niea_7? the way they make fun of pakistanis or hindi's?
what do they care? theres no melting pot in japan!!

[Femto]

Yeah, but nobody called Mr. Popo a nigger or said that black culture has no value. It sucks if stereotypical drawings bother you, but it's not in your face racism. He was in fact a very likeable character.

Did you even read this thread?

Besides, Toriyama's work is far from generic so it doesn't matter either way. His style is something that I would actually say goes beyond characteristics and is more generalized.

Except for Mr. Popo of course.



PS: Last post. I need some sleep.

[Ambient]

....i overlooked the whole "no value/lifestyle" thingy
...oops! i did it again

[Pikachupast]

Well, racism exists in all countries, so the best thing to do it´s not giving it publicity.
Anyway, even Japan is changing its mind nowadays. (incredible, a woman emperator!! O_O) ^^

PD: I´m agree with this XDD. In Spain will happened the same with the princess Leonor.

PD: Could it be that the manga in question was a parody? I meant they´re making fun about serius problems.
Or have you read the entire manga??

Greetings ^^

[Femto]

I haven't read the title myself, just the article.

I think that the book's title being "Hating the Korean Wave" pretty much leaves out the possibility of it being a parody though.

[Libaax]

Just cause its a topseller doesnt mean all of the japanese are racist cause there are a new topseller every week in Japan.


Havent you guys read The Phantom? Just see how they drew black people there....

[Buzkashi]

Maybe that manga is the japanese equivalent to our say... Southpark?