Does Guts follow Fate's path

Post by **MrFelony** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:48 pm

well i remember we were having a nice little chat about this but it got side raield and I was rereading vol 24 and came across some important information

take this as you may, It seems very similar to the discussion i was having with my friend about christian science. I have to def agree with what she says about destiny and choices. Im for the idea that Idea sets in place the correct circumstances for certain people to make certain choices. ONe way to look at it is in Guts' perspective he has free will relative to his knowledge, but Idea knows the path he is following...if that makes sense.
so what do you guys think?

Post by **Ellen** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:17 am

You're right, this is like the idea that we were created with "Free Will" but our decisions ultimately lead in a path that is predictable in nature.
It's hard to really define it though.

Post by **Tempest** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:22 am

That's quite the question. I get the feeling that Gut's path is somewhat carved out by fate, but not totally decided. Fate is a tricky thing. For example, if Fate says Guts is supposed to kill someone, does it say how or when, or just that at sometime, somewhere, somehow Guts will kill him? It's one of the things that keeps the manga intersting, that and causality. Does Guts's path parallel Skull Knight? Is it different. It's tough to say, mainly because of the fact that we have little or no knowledge of SK's origin. I dunno, the idea of causality being a spiral seems to be summed up nicey by Mark Twain's thought's on history. It, "doesn't seem to repeat itself, but it sure as hell rhymes."

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:32 am

I think its really interesting how many people Idea created whose soul purpose may have been just to be killed by guts/griffith hehe

Post by **Messatsu** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:41 am

Must be quite a revelation to sudenly find out that you born to be nothng but sword fodder

IM gona go with fate

Website · Post by **Damien** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:02 am

Kinda not/but kinda yes. Its really imbetween, it is a hard decision.

Post by **Loeviz** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:54 am

I´m going with that he´s making his own destiny, just cause it came first into my mind. If I´m right only time will tell

Post by **Wandering_Mystic** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:59 am

I like how so many are on to the secret that Psi is Idea.

About the topic of discussion, I don't think Idea is the only factor of God in the story. Or at the very least, the Idea that we have so far been presented with is only one facet of a more complex relationship with fate. That said, I like how it is stated in the Berserk wikipedia entry: Guts is one who stands outside of fate, but constantly struggles to change the course of destiny. I take that to mean that another power is at hand besides Idea, and that due to this power or coincidence, Guts is outside the influence of Idea's weavings, which in themselves supposedly are ultimately created by people's darker sides. When Flora mentions God, I don't think she would refer to Idea as such, but is rather talking about something even greater, or at least other. I think there are several strands of fate in play here, with one being the kind that the apostles seem to be familiar with, and the other being the hidden knowledge possessed by people like Flora who are still in touch with the old ways and are deeply connected to the spiritual realms.

Post by **Baz** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:52 pm

My thoughts are on the same line as Wandering Mystic, but not nearly as coherent

. Doesn't Idea say he mixed "blood with blood" and "created the lineage" that lead to Griffith. So Idea manipulated history to get everything ready but the flow of Fate seems to be a force he influence not absolute controls. But things still seem to be happening for a reason like Guts living through everything and the people he meets. Hmm does make you wounder if Guts was planned by Idea or as he was born from a corpse he may have never been meant to live, but fate stepped in. Which could mean he's outside Idea's plan? gezz Miura is so wonderfully vague I bet we will be debating this long after the last chapter

.

Post by **ucrzymofo87** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:51 pm

only Idea knows for sure if guts follows the laws of causality, because he did survive the eclipse. void did say that they were all sacrifices for griffith, but 2 of the sacrifices survived.

so the debate is, were their survivals part of fate or were they determining their own fate? this question probably will not be answered until berserk is over...heaven forbid such a thing should happen soon

Post by **Sandman** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:57 pm

Ok so every thing that was put in front of Griffith was chosen to happen by fate, so we can assume that Guts and Griffth's meeting, victories and falling out was ment to happen. What wasnt suppost to happen was the ecscape of Guts and Caska from the eclipse. So this is where Idea gets a stick in its spokes, well maybe not a stick more like a card that makes noise every time the wheel spins. As humans their destiny is to die, but I think that before Guts reaches his destiny he will cut Griffith's destiny short.

Post by **Necromancer** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:13 pm

I don't know and so I don't vote.

Either way, Berserk will be good as long as Guts stays as he is.

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:45 pm

well if you dont know then thats why Psi=Idea

as for there being another influncial being besides fate...part of me agrees that it would be cool if there was a "Thought" or someone else but when flora talks about the astral realm and Idea, she speaks pretty much as if there is only one. Also the reason why I'm pretty sure that Guts is under Idea's control, is that he represents the same human emotions that helped create Idea. Griffith is a representation of a human's ultimate desire for power. Guts is in a way symbolic for human's desires of revenge, as well as lust/love (but in a way so way griffith. griffith <3 guts

). whenever the Godhand meet him, they revel over how strong his feelings are. they could litereally eat him up

.

and i disagree with Wikipedia

. but i do think that Berserk is still open for the introduction of the counterpoint of Idea/Godhand. Muira has left it open so I'm not going to rule it out. The abyss is a dark and deep play that many have not explored, Flora may just not know about it, like a lot of stuff. And Sandman, would surviving the eclipse not just make Guts an even more complete representation of the rage and desire for revenge humans feel.

I wonder when/if Guts is just going to become a big beast wolf guy (like from his evil dream when he is fucking/tearing casca apart) like SK turned into a "SKull Knight" though honestly his persona, if it looked like that, would look pretty dumb

Post by **Starnum** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:34 am

Hm, I have wondered if there was a greater power than Idea myself. No proof has been given for such a thing, but I wouldn’t rule it out. Like Mystic, I seriously doubt Flora would refer to Idea as God. In anycase, I still think that Gatts isn’t under Idea’s control. Look at it this way, Idea sets up the path, and it’s up to each individual to follow it. That’s not factoring in the possibility of a higher or equal power of Idea. Now, most of the people in Berserk are weak minded, or just don’t know of the supernatural nature that exists in their world. Thus, even as Idea continues to try to influence Gatts’ life, the Black Swordsman struggles against his own fate. I think that’s what Skull Knight was talking about before when he called him the struggler. So, is Gatts completely out of the flow of Destiny? No, Skull Knight said he was “between” worlds. However, Gatts fights that flow, so he is not completely under Idea’s influence.

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:04 am

I think the important keys here are what roles did guts serve for griffith pre-eclipse and what roles is casca playing in manipulating guts' fate. are they "instruments" of another higher being trying to influence their fate but w/e my mind is just thinking up siht right now with out actually thinkgin

Post by **Khelegond** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:28 pm

I think that Guts is completely out of Idea's control. Why? Remember when Griffith found him? He was the only one that made Griffith forget his dream - he risked his life many times to save Guts. So, Idea's chosen path for Griffith was one, and Guts was there to change it. Griffith could have died against Zodd, but the Behelit saved him.

In my opinion, Guts made Griffith unreasonable in the past, just because he was outside Idea's control, and he wasn't a pawn in idea's hand to pave the way for the "White Hawk".

C'mon, isn't Berserk great? I can't have this level of conversation with almost no other Manga/Anime fan-base

Post by **psi29a** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:36 pm

Khelegond wrote:C'mon, isn't Berserk great? I can't have this level of conversation with almost no other Manga/Anime fan-base

Quoted for truth, not that we are elitists here (perhaps we are? *shrugs*), but promotion of intelligent conversation is highly valued here.

Post by **|||||||** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:50 pm

I believe that people who strictly follow destiny and people who strictly deny it are both the same since their moves can be foreseen. Only those who are aware of what they do, though they might sometimes follow destiny or maybe not, only those can possibly change the flow to turn out different. This doesn't necessarily mean everyone changing his ways frequently is able to change things, since you need to influence enough people. From this point of view Guts is perfectly an error in the Matrix and therefore not bound by fate.

Post by **Finito** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:00 pm

He just follows the path Miura gave him in his imagination...so stop arguing and close this thread plz!!

Post by **psi29a** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:20 pm

I'll lock it when more people are made aware that I'm Idea.

Post by **Finito** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:37 pm

Whats Idea suppose to be? The name of a user?

Post by **Baz** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:55 pm

Finito wrote:Whats Idea suppose to be? The name of a user?

You are joking? Right?

If not your nOObness is shameful!

Post by **psi29a** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:01 pm

Finito wrote:Whats Idea suppose to be? The name of a user?

Idea, in Miura's world is basically what this thread is about. Not to slam ya, but if you don't know that I suggest you re-read Berserk manga and the other various points of interest like the wiki-pedia and SK.net's encylopedia before posting more about the subject of this thread.

This is very important information to the plot of Berserk.

Post by **Khelegond** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:27 pm

He probably missed the "hidden chapter", 13b (or something like that).

Finito, go and search for that, and the topic will suddenly make much more sense to you.

Edit: just to clarify, it was a chapter released AFTER, just to give the world of Berserk much more dept and sense. To quote the FAQ:

Q: What is the Lost Chapter?

Miura added a chapter to The Eclipse, some time after the volume had been released. This is the chapter in which Griffith meets with The Idea of Evil. He added this chapter, because he wanted to elaborate on The World of Berserk. He felt it would help to further explain the story.

This chapter is now available by The Hawks.

(Volume 13: Chapter 3.5 – God of the Abyss II)

Remember, the FAQ is your friend!

Post by **Finito** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:38 pm

WTF! I need to read that now!!

Edit: Damn school comps sucks will need to have to wait to get home...

Evil Genius

Does Guts follow Fate's path

Gu7s pwnzors f4t3?

Does Guts follow Fate's path