Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:40 am
so...many...long...posts...
must...turn...off...monitor...
that's better, now I need to find the quit button
must...turn...off...monitor...
that's better, now I need to find the quit button
I agree with you a lot here. guts SHOULD be dead. But what has caused him to remain alive. I've already addressed the tons of "dues ex machina" scenarios that have saved guts so i dont feel the need to address it again. Many people see those as clues that he is outside of fates pull, I see them as Idea ensuring his life so that he may follow his destiny until the end.Wandering_Mystic wrote:I think the main argument for how Guts could still be in fate's sway is related to how important a role he had with Griffith's own destiny. However, be careful here. Just because one has a role in someone else's fate doesn't necessarily mean that said person is him/herself contained by fate as well. It is true that throughout the manga, before and after the eclipse, it is heavily implied that Guts is outside of fate. People saying he shouldn't have been born alive, and then him growing up and his many narrow encounters with death that are highlighted serve to give a kind of subconscious evidence of how Guts should be dead a thousand times over, but he is not, even when he throws himself into ridiculously dangerous situations, and receives all kinds of wounds that would have killed any other man. So for me, no matter what, I cannot ignore these clues as they so clearly tell me that Guts is outside of a common design or destiny.
Actually, i feel that guts did have a relative love for Griffith. yes it didnt become obsessive until after the eclipse, but Guts isnt capable of really showing emotions. In the few moments he does talk about griffith with casca, you can sense the awe and admiration that he held for the man.Wandering_Mystic wrote:As for his involvement with Griffith, think about how much of a lost soul he was for almost all the time he was with the Hawks. Guts is a free spirit, implicitly more free because of his broken bonds with fate. Griffith managed to capture him for a while, but when you think about it, the level of obsessiveness that Grifith held for Guts is not entirely reciprocated by Guts. Grifith would throw himself into danger and make crazy decisions to keep Guts alive, without even fully understanding it himself. Guts served Griffith and even tried to consider himself friends with Griffith, but I personally didn't see the same level of obsessiveness towards Griffith, at least nothing that overpowered his own sense of who he was. This is most clearly demonstrated by his choice to leave the hawks of his own free will, his main task having been completed as far as he was concerned. I dont see that as Guts being fated to leave, as much as the fact that he never intended to stay in the first place, and pretty much was always trying to carve his own path.
Here i disagree to somepoint. I see Guts and Griffith as equals. Both were meant to effect eachothers destinies. here i think Idea used Griffith to clear out Guts destiny as much as Idea used Guts to carve out Griffiths. Every aspect of Guts' life led him to that fateful day where he would kill Basuzo (spelling and correct personWandering_Mystic wrote:Griffith's true path was set into full speed the moment he met Guts, but the reason why is I think important. There is the important scene when Guts and Caksa talk about the campfires, and how they all seem to be attracted to Griffith's massive flame. I take that metaphor to mean that Griffith's destiny was a particularly massive one which either encompassed all other destinies along his way, or trampled over them in the process. However, this was true of every person except Guts. Why? Because he was already outside iron-clad chains of fate. Could Guts be influenced by the destiny of others? Of course. To live is to interact, and that means a certain amount of giving and taking. But when push came to shove, Guts brushed off Griffiths fateful power like dust off his armor.
well the reactionary ways of Guts is why i see him so easily manipulated by Idea. All Idea has to do is put something in his path, and Guts will pretty reliably react to it in a certain way. Apostle=kill, Casca in danger=save, and so forth. Guts is not a really complicated...okay he IS emotionally complicated...but his actions are usually pretty straightforward. and as for griffith, I would say he is pretty much the same. and griffith being the planner that he is, is partly why Guts leaving him was so hard on him cause i dont think he saw it comingWandering_Mystic wrote:The clincher is that Guts is so reactionary, living only from moment to moment, without really thinking of what his next step will be. This is to me a powerfull metaphor for making one's own way forward, because the next step is never known, never seen, but only forged into existence by one's own step forward. Whereas Griffith always seemed to know what to do, what steps to take, as if his path was not only laid out before him, but also clearly visible to him as well.
In the end, I think the issue of will also plays a huge role into the whole debate about destiny. Both Griffith and Guts have a powerful will, but Griffith's is a will to power, while Guts' is a will to simply survive and live to see the next step.
Yeah, I've read your posts about the Deus ex machina scenarios, and truth be told I can see the logic in that too. But the theory that Idea is behind it all rubs me the wrong way, because it is supposed to be the Idea of evil, not anything else. If there were some other entity created by the good or desire for good in people's hearts, I'm pretty sure it would be something else separate from the Idea that granted Femto power. Plus there's my inherent understanding of fate and destiny which is something that is not owned by any specific force or being, but simply either just exists or is woven by the equally mysterious but plural "Fates". There is no specific details revealed in Berserk about what kind of origin or controling presence destiny or fate has, but seeing how Miura is heavily influenced by Western concepts, I cannot help but intuit that in the world of Berserk things work at least similarly, which would imply that Idea of Evil is either influencing destiny abnormally, or that it is only one part of the system by which the fabric of fate is woven.MrFelony wrote:
I've already addressed the tons of "dues ex machina" scenarios that have saved guts so i dont feel the need to address it again. Many people see those as clues that he is outside of fates pull, I see them as Idea ensuring his life so that he may follow his destiny until the end.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply Guts had no love for Griffith, or didn't yearn for Griffith's acknowledgement of his idea of true friendship. He obviously had and still has very strong feelings for Griffith. I meant that Guts admiration for Griffith was not the same as the admiration other people had for him. And this is one of the keys of my argument that although Guts was crucial to Griffith's destiny, Griffith was not as vital to Guts path in the same way until Griffith went apeshit and did something completely unforgivable. Griffith never really wanted a friend, despite all the bullshit he said. If he really meant what he said, he shouldn't have been envious of Guts. All Griffith really cared about was power and Guts was key to that all the way up to the eclipse. But all Guts wanted from Griffith was friendship, and companionship in general from the Hawks, which he realized only too late had become a true family to him. It's actually a pretty normal dilemma, and not that extraordinary at all. What stands out is that Griffith has a strange charisma over others that pulls their destiny towards him. As I mentioned before, Guts was somehow not drawn by that charisma at all, or at least, not nearly in the same way or intensity as with everyone else. Why? On one hand, you can argue that Guts was fated to be strong enough to withstand it. But that is way too simple an explanation for my tastes, and doesn't completely fit. Why him, and not any other random person with an extremely messed up childhood?Actually, i feel that guts did have a relative love for Griffith.
I don't think Guts is that easily manipulated. Or maybe I mean I don't like the idea of Guts being easily manipulated, at least not by Idea of evil, as I think you imply. Sure he can be influenced by any number of things, but he didn't let a HUGE manipulator like Griffith to keep him in the Hawks, nor did he succumb to the tactical manipulations of someone like Serpico when they fought all those times. Ok, that may be shaky ground for a lot of people, because I know probably the majority of people are blinded by their impression of Serpico being gay to let them properly see and appreciate how brilliant the guy really is... But anyhoo, off topic. I think Guts can be predictable to an extent, but so can Griffith, and even the Idea of Evil, if you want to speak generally. Guts' choice to allow for a new party to follow him is in a way not all that predictable if you look at what he's been through. His opening of his heart is a rebellion to the traps of the God Hand and the Idea of Evil (e.g. hatred, revenge, lust, etc.)well the reactionary ways of Guts is why i see him so easily manipulated by Idea.
No, I guess it doesn't in one sense of the phrase, but I meant living from moment to moment as making an active and independant choice for every moment that comes to him. He is incapable of really planning things out long term, simply because he's used to not knowing what will come next. His reactions in battle and his choices in life are all the more amazing in this light because the only way to survive and move forward in both contexts is to have a strong will.also living from moment to moment doesnt guarantee free will. all it does is just ensure that you wont know what is going to happen in the future. and once again i stress the idea of relative free will here.
we agree that guts was drawn to Griffith's charisma, but dreamers can never settle for another's dream. Griffith and Guts are not very different people. Griffith WAS good at heart, but in the pursuit of his dream, he became twisted. and i know everyone argues about how evil he became but think about what you would have done in his position, probably the exact same thing. Griffith did care about all of his men. he cared about the child who died. People make gay jokes because he cared about his men enought to whore himself out to a pedophile. now yes preserving his troops is the logical and strategically best thing to do, but I'm saying that in the beginning he did care about his people, but through the suffering that he had to go through, he had to twist his thinking and eventually he started believe the lies he told himself to relieve his conscience for all the deaths he caused. Guts did the same thing too while he was chasing griffith after the eclipse. he started believing that it was pointless to work with the ants under him, and its okay to step on some ants (just like griffith)...went on a lil tangent there...Wandering_Mystic wrote:As I mentioned before, Guts was somehow not drawn by that charisma at all, or at least, not nearly in the same way or intensity as with everyone else. Why? On one hand, you can argue that Guts was fated to be strong enough to withstand it. But that is way too simple an explanation for my tastes, and doesn't completely fit. Why him, and not any other random person with an extremely messed up childhood?
if you reread the part when the knights of the holy iron chain find the lake of blood after the eclipse, then you will get the "black hawk" "white hawk" idea going on. what i believe that to say is that Griffith is the black hawk disguising himself as the white hawk and that guts is vice-versa. and as you might have guessed from previous posts, i believe what Idea has planned isnt always what the Godhand and others think is going to happen. just like the eclipse and guts/casca surviving.Wandering_Mystic wrote:That is why my answer is free will. It the only one that fits, and doesn't fall into even more of a circular reasoning of this whole destiny question. If Griffith is destined to become a great ruler, that in itself conflicts with the need for a hero. If it were Guts' destiny to be a hero, then either Griffith's destiny (which has more or less already been stated or at least very heavily implied in the manga) is false, or what Guts has going for himself is more than just the garden variety of destiny. The point is destiny is supposed to be set in stone right?
well him being born from a corpse was vital. a whore baby wouldnt have had the same stigma as a corpse child. the whole idea that Guts was cursed was important for creating the rumors that Guts was cursed and the cause for his adoptive mothers death. that is what caused him to have an unloving father who would eventually try and kill him for killing his beloved wife.Wandering_Mystic wrote:Also, some smaller questions concerning the way Guts life has happened: Why would it be necessary for Guts to be born from the hanging corpse of his mother? How could that possibly condition him to be a hero? He could have just as easily been born of a mercenary camp whore who died during labor, and still been brought up with similar conditions and stigmas in the rough life of a mercenary band. Why does Guts so mindlessly (almost in a Zen kinda way) swing his sword? If he swings it because it is his destiny to do so, that's a pretty big piece of circular logic. Hard to swallow for me. It makes more sense when I see it in a light of pure will to survive. Plus why would the Skull Knight acknowledge him as a "Struggler"? What would he be struggling against, if not the pulls of all the destiny around him? And why do the apostles and even Slann herself admit they are curious to see how long Guts stays alive or are just plain tickled by his still being alive? Ok, I do see how you can tie fate into most of these answers, but it feels more like a stretch to me than the idea that Guts' true path is hidden to them.
and this i think refers to both griffith and gutswikipedia wrote:In literature and film, an anti-hero is a central or supporting character that has some of the personality flaws traditionally assigned to villains or un-heroic people, but nonetheless also has enough heroic qualities, intentions, or type of strength to gain the sympathy of readers or viewers. Anti-heroes can be awkward, obnoxious, passive, pitiful, obtuse, or even normal; but they are always, in some fundamental way, flawed, unqualified, or failed heroes. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on the other people they meet. Additionally the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to just punishment, un-heroic success or redemption.
Comic books feature anti-heroes (also known as "dark heroes") who are characters fighting for the side of good, but either with some tragic flaw (such as a tormented past), fighting for reasons that are not entirely altruistic (they may fight a villain due to a grudge or some other selfish motivation, with little or no regard for typical "heroic" motives), a non heroic character who is not evil, nor are they good, but find themselves fighting on the side of good due to circumstance, or a hero using questionable means to reach their goals. A good working definition of the anti-hero is a paradoxical character that is, within the context of a story, a hero but in another context could easily be seen as a villain, simply as unlikable, a normal person or coward.
The concept of the anti-hero is as old as literature itself with the main character of the Iliad, Achilles being a strong anti-hero. The presence of anti-heroes has blossomed recently, as there is a tendency of modern authors to present villains as complex, even sympathetic, characters whose motivations are not inherently evil and sometimes even good. The line, therefore, between an anti-hero and a villain is sometimes not clear.
well each action that guts has made has seemed logical to me...i dont see what you didnt see coming. isnt it just a little coincidental that while guts is searching for a way to get at and possibly destroy Griffith that his deformed baby appears out of no where and shows him a vision of Casca in danger...i mean come on. and his reaction...very typical. also very similar to the way Griffith reacted when Guts was in danger...Khelegond wrote:I don't like to make stupid posts, but I'll make this one...I've read it all, and (as I posted before) I agree much more with Mystic's vision [than] MrFelony's
One thing to consider, is that Guts is taking, [AT] EACH TURN, different actions that we would think he would.
He's not desperatedly searching for Griffith, for he's looking for a way to save Casca. He let the group join him, knowing that almost literally hell follows him. And that, I think, is Guts acting TOTALLY against his fate, the way he was almost "programmed" to do. Man, he could have DESTROYED Serpico in the column fight, but he didn't! That is a changed (but not from out of nowhere) Guts...
Please, don't even think of that!MrFelony wrote:dif is these posts are both quantity and quality i believe, unlike wyrms. that and we arent going to go back and write *DELETED* in all our posts like wyrm did if we get mad