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Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:59 pm
by MrFelony
I'll say to lock when i think the topic is drained of entertainment and debate
. my rebuttal to your point khelegond is that without guts Griffith wouldn't have been as able to achieve the grandure at the peak of his glory and then crash after he left. It is widely accepted (i believe) that the reason for Griffith's downfall was his depression and lack of reasoning after Guts left him. Guts distracting him from his dream is what led Griffith to sacrifice his companions. His intense love for guts and then Guts rejection of him, IMO, caused him to want to get rid of the love he felt for him no matter what. but i cant takl now im already late for clas
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:14 pm
by psi29a
Here is some Berserk loving for those who have missed it or fail at using the search button.
Berserk Chapter 83, Volume 13 "The Lost Chapter"
Read and become enlightened.
The following translation was kindly written by Olivier Hague. The page numbers (8301 - 8318) correspond to the scans of this "Lost" Chapter found here. I hope everyone enjoys this translation and the chance we have of understanding and seeing this chapter, finally.
Olivier Hague wrote:Page 01 (8301)
Griffith: ... God?
The Idea of Evil: Welcome
The Idea: Human
Griffith: Are you God?...
The Idea: I am
The Idea: the Idea
Page 2 & 3 (8303 & 8302)
The Idea: The desired God
The Idea: The Idea of Evil
Berserk
83th Episode The God of the Abyss (2)
Miura Kentarô
Page 04 & 05 (8305 & 8304)
Griffith: God...
Griffith: This, God? This huge... lump of flesh?...
The Idea: What you are seeing is a part of me
The Idea: My core
The Idea: Look around you
Page 06 (8307)
Griffith: What's this?!...
The Idea: An ocean of feelings
The Idea: All humans have, deep in their souls
The Idea: a common consciousness that transcends individuality
The Idea: Their collective consciousness as a species
The Idea: Its dark side is this swelling ocean
The Idea: I was born from these swells
The Idea: as the ego of this world
Page 07 (8306)
The Idea: This world itself is I
The Idea: The darkness
The Idea: that dwells in every human heart
The Idea: The Idea of Evil
The Idea: This is God
Page 08 (8309)
Griffith: God... This...
Griffith: Does that mean that...
Griffith: Does that mean that it was humans who created God?
Griffith: Does that mean that it was humans who desired this?
Griffith: This terrifying thing?
Griffith: This... This looks like...
The Idea: Hell
The Idea: Some call it that way
Griffith: Hell...
The Idea: This is just the surface
The Idea: of the multiple layers of the whole consciousness
The Idea: But you know
The Idea: You know that this place is terribly human
Page 09 (8308)
The Idea: Violence and loneliness...
The Idea: This place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings
The Idea: It is truly the will that defines human nature
Griffith: ... Yes
Griffith: it's true
Griffith: This is... in me
Griffith: I can feel it
Griffith: But why?
Griffith: Why were you born?
Griffith: Why did humans give birth to this will called God?
The Idea: Humans
The Idea: desired reasons
Page 10 (8311)
The Idea: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
The Idea: Reasons for life
The Idea: Reasons for death
The Idea: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
The Idea: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
Griffith: And that was
Griffith: God...
The Idea: And I produce those
The Idea: As it is what I've been brought to existence for
The Idea: I control destiny
Page 11 (8310)
The Idea: Obeying to the essence of human kind
The Idea: I weave every man's destiny
Griffith: ... Does that mean
Griffith: that you're the one who controls my destiny?...
Griffith: that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!
Page 12 & 13 (8313 & 8312)
The Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past
The Idea: By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
The Idea: and merging blood with blood
The Idea: I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
The Idea: To pave the way for the times you would be born in
The Idea: I maniplulated History
The Idea: and created an appropriate context for you
The Idea: All the encounters you have made so far
The Idea: were a part of the destiny that led you here as well
Page 14 (8315)
Griffith: ... The destiny...
Griffith: My...
Griffith: God! What do you want from me?!
The Idea: Be
The Idea: as you will
Page 15 (8314)
The Idea: I dwell deep in your heart, I am a part of you
The Idea: You are a part of your kind's consciousness, a part of me
The Idea: Your desire is my desire as well
The Idea: Your actions themselves
The Idea: shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole
The Idea: May they bring pain or salvation to the men
Page 16 (8317)
The Idea: Do
The Idea: as you will
The Idea: Chosen One
Page 17 (8316)
Griffith: ... If so
Griffith: I want wings
Page 19 (8318)
The Idea: Take with you
The Idea: the power of the feelings this inner world is filled with
The Idea: and change this physical field that is your body
The Idea: into the suitable shape for you
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:58 pm
by MrFelony
What Idea tells him has to be a pretty big ego trip. he essentially tells griffith that no matter what he does, it is the will of the people
. In a way you could argue that ultimately humans have free will because the actions that they are fated to do are their "will" anyway since it was their will that created idea in the first play
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:05 pm
by Necromancer
Don't know if I already got that chapter but if I try to dl your link psi "cant connect to remote server".
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:22 pm
by psi29a
Necromancer wrote:Don't know if I already got that chapter but if I try to dl your link psi "cant connect to remote server".
Yeah, I saw that too cox.net are real cox blockers. I posted the translation to help ease the pain till the server comes back up.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:26 am
by Istvan
I think that at first Gatts was following Fate's path, since he was essential to causing Griffith's dream to come crumbling down, which led to him being a God's Hand. But the key is afterwards, during the eclipse. I think Gatts was supposed to die with the rest of the Hawks, but as the God's Hand said, during the eclipse it is theoretically possible (though very rare) for something unforseen to occur and fate's path to go awry, and that's what happened when Gatts survived. In the second eclipse, something else went wrong, and Griffith ended up incorporating the baby into his new body, so he still has feelings for Gatts (alternatively his feelings were so strong that even turning into Femto didn't destroy them and he's just using the baby as a convienent excuse). Either way, it seems that Gatts is now outside of Fate's plan, and so in a perfect position to really mess up that plan.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:02 am
by Baz
Yes but this still seems to be predestined to happen, but I think it's God at work outside of Idea realising it.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:38 am
by Starnum
Felony, I fail to see your latest point (Not that I ever understand your warped reasoning anyway). Gatts helped lead Griffith to Idea. He was not caught "Between Worlds" until after the eclipse. So what exactly are you trying to say?
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:50 am
by MrFelony
I said clearly that Guts is the reason why Griffith ended up sacrificing his companions. and the last post i made was in reference to Idea telling griffith that whatever he did it would be the will ofthe people. i haven't mentioned him being between worlds
...i dont think that changes whether or not he is still under Idea's control cause even the god hand are controlled by Idea in the sense that Idea programs people to act a certain way and respond to certain events...only exception may be Griffith but i wont go into that. I'm not sure what you're unsure of...my lasts posts were written in a total of several minutes so they werent well thought out
as for their being a god above idea...very unlikely
. why would Muira write a chapter to clarify things saying that Idea is what humans would consider God only to have Idea NOT be God?
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:38 am
by Finito
Thanks psi29a for the link!
OK read it...not alot of info but its fine if you dont want to masturbate intellectually.
Well there is nothing saying guts is not following destiny's path and since guts was controlled by destiny before the eclipse why not now?
In that chapter Idea says it weaves every man's destiny. I dont get why he says only man's destiny, what about demons and gods?
Unless you guys got anyther hidden chapter or something I can only say that guts is controlled by Idea since hes still human but maybe Idea doesnt control gods and demons so his destiny was changed because of that, but it only changed, he still have a destiny.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:05 pm
by psi29a
Finito wrote:In that chapter Idea says it weaves every man's destiny. I dont get why he says only man's destiny, what about demons and gods.
There aren't any demons, nor gods. Only (in order from Abyss to Reality) Idea, God Hand, Apostles, Astral Creatures (evil and good), Guts/SK/Crew, and Humans.
From what I gather, everything above humans is a manisfistation of the human subconcious. Idea wouldn't exist if Humans where not around to create it, that is an example of my line of reasoning because Idea says that itself.
Humans give up more and more 'freedom' to fate or 'Idea', which is a sort of destiny they created for themselves. This goes back to Plato's idea of Forms. I suggest you read 'the Cave' and 'idea of Evil', which are hard reads but very good terms in natural philosophy.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:41 pm
by Khelegond
MrFellony, my point was that Guts was out of Fate's line since he was born. After all, he should be dead.
About Griffith's destiny: I think it was his destiny to become a god hand, since he had the Red Behelit. But Guts made him diferent. Made him unreasonable, which ALMOST made him forget his dream! Basicly what happened is like when you're playing chess, and you relying too much on a certain piece (let's say the queen - the most powerfull piece on the table) and you loose that piece. You kind of lose control. That happened to Griffith when he lost Guts.
If you think that Guts leaving wouldn't made Griffith have sex with Charlotte, I'm inclined to disagree. It might have happened AFTER some marriage, but it would happen. And Guts return, saving Griffith, and ending up to the Eclipse, would have happened anyway, since the Behelit was destined to be his. It was just going to happen in another way.
Idea doesn't control the God Hand directly, so they don't "obey" them. It shapes mankind's destiny to do it's bidding, but not directly, since it is just a product of men's fears and everything else.
I think (and here I digress a little from
psi29a) that Idea is a manifestation of human subconscious, but not all magic entities. Something most powerfull might exist (I think it exists, at least
), but something less powerfull then Idea (magic spirits, elemental entities) exist. And they can influence the world, in a better way, than Idea. So, in the end, Berserk is still Good vs Evil, only that evil is so much more prevailing (being created by manking itself).
Ok, boring post - sorry guys. If I wasn't clear enough, it's because english is not my first language!
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:23 pm
by psi29a
Khelegond wrote:I think (and here I digress a little from
psi29a) that Idea is a manifestation of human subconscious, but not all magic entities. Something most powerfull might exist (I think it exists, at least
), but something less powerfull then Idea (magic spirits, elemental entities) exist. And they can influence the world, in a better way, than Idea. So, in the end, Berserk is still Good vs Evil, only that evil is so much more prevailing (being created by manking itself).
The magic spirits and elemental entities exist in the astral realm, below the abyss above reality. They only have influence in the world through Human interaction (magic users aka witches).
I will back-track on what I said about good or evil, because really these things are neutral in nature. If these things exist outside of human thought, then they exist in parallel and separate from humans and will live on after human’s death. So they are not dependant on humans, thus less likely to be driven by the same causes as Idea.
Now, if anything above reality is dependant on Humans (reality), then we have to worry that these astral beings (elementals and fairies) in that they will have a stake in humanity thus will take sides.
I would like to think this is a lot more than good vs. evil, because the situation and plot isn't that black and white. However, if anyone wants to view it as starkly black and white, I have no problem with that either, your opinion and all.
What I was saying about Idea is that it is the manifistation of the collective human subconcious. It is what the human condition wants, the Idea, a God. Humans made it real, and gave it a purpose. Through Idea (the will of the human subconcious), it has helped to manipluate the human condition thus strengthening 'Fate' and making it less effected by radicals.
This is causality, we (all of us) event Idea out of thin air. Give it a reason and goal, then loose our freedom and let 'fate' take over.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:33 pm
by Khelegond
Hmmm...yes, Berserk sure isn't black and white. It's more like gray and black
There's too much evil, and the concept of good is usually distorted (Holy Iron Chain Knights, or the Priest on Albion - forgot his name *shame*). Good, per se, it's completely hidden, or considered wrong (Schierke and Flora, good persons and do-gooders, where considered witches and probably would be burned down). That is an aspect of the world Miura has mastered, since we all know what to expect in the world of Berserk.
About the entities, that are neutral - they are independent of humans in a sense, but the way they influence the world is completely dependent. Schierke, for an example, use her magic (influencing this spirits) for good. Now a thought comes to mind - can you be an apostle and do good things with you power? After all, Locus (sp?) is rumored to be a fable-knight, a good one, isn't he?
I really need to read those books of Plato, I love some (good) discussion!
EDIT: thinking now, couldn't be that some kind of good entity (the opposite of Idea) might be influencing the world (like Idea did to Griffith) to make Guts follow a path to become the White Hawk? He is fighting apostles, getting each day stronger, finding Flora and Schierke, getting Farneze straight. That means, in a way, he's doing good things all along! And Guts could be outside fate's line, but he could be influenced by others (Raziel from "Soul Reaver" comes to mind)!
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:37 pm
by psi29a
Khelegond wrote:I really need to read those books of Plato, I love some (good) discussion!
I shall call forth the Killfile, he knows where to find books by Plato, since he (Plato) didn't copyright his work (well duh)... it is freely available on the web.
Plato's main argument about God and the Idea of Evil can be summerized as such:
English Translation of Plato's work wrote: 1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
That this argument is valid is perhaps most easily seen by a reductio argument, in which one assumes that the conclusion -- (7) -- is false, and then shows that the denial of (7), along with premises (1) through (6), leads to a contradiction. Thus if, contrary to (7), God exists, it follows from (1) that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. This, together with (2), (3), and (4) then entails that God has the power to eliminate all evil, that God knows when evil exists, and that God has the desire to eliminate all evil. But when (5) is conjoined with the reductio assumption that God exists, it then follows via modus ponens from (6) that either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil. Thus we have a contradiction, and so premises (1) through (6) do validly imply (7).
This applies to Miura's Berserk in that either God doesn't exist, and the replacement (if you can call it that) is Idea. Or that Evil is a relative term, and no real such thing as Good and Evil exist.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:18 pm
by MrFelony
Khelegond wrote:MrFellony, my point was that Guts was out of Fate's line since he was born. After all, he should be dead.
About Griffith's destiny: I think it was his destiny to become a god hand, since he had the Red Behelit. But Guts made him diferent. Made him unreasonable, which ALMOST made him forget his dream! Basicly what happened is like when you're playing chess, and you relying too much on a certain piece (let's say the queen - the most powerfull piece on the table) and you loose that piece. You kind of lose control. That happened to Griffith when he lost Guts.
If you think that Guts leaving wouldn't made Griffith have sex with Charlotte, I'm inclined to disagree. It might have happened AFTER some marriage, but it would happen. And Guts return, saving Griffith, and ending up to the Eclipse, would have happened anyway, since the Behelit was destined to be his. It was just going to happen in another way.
Idea doesn't control the God Hand directly, so they don't "obey" them. It shapes mankind's destiny to do it's bidding, but not directly, since it is just a product of men's fears and everything else.
okay...about charlotte i think you are confused about what i said/meat. I meant that guts leaving griffith caused him to fuck up, get depressed, and lead him down the path to the eclipse. A Gutsless Griffith is a hard thing to ponder. Guts was his "queen" on the chess board. however, you can still win a game of chess without your queen
. If there was no guts, then griffth could have gone down several paths. he may have not achieved what he set out to do, he may have attained the success he did with guts under his command, but one thing for sure, he wouldnt have formed such a strong bond with anyone else he found. a strong bond that would be broken and cause him to follow the path to the eclipse
where you argue that he shouldnt have survived his "birth" you are correct. he shouldnt have, but circumstances were arranged so a woman who would be willing and wanted a baby would be there to save him. just like the eclipse, guts depending on an outside source conveniently saving him
. my interpretation, Idea started him and kept him on his path to whatever destiny lies before him.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:04 pm
by Sandman
Ok at the Eclipse one of the god hand said that everything that happen to Giffith was placed before him, now this means that Guts was never suppost to die. That is why Giffith always saved him because Guts is not suppost to die before the eclipse, he had his perpose and that was to show Griffith that he could not obtain his dream the way he wanted. Griffith had no choice he had to become Femto to relize his dream. Now after the eclipse Guts string with fate was cut because he only has one choice...to die. But like SK said you are the one who struggles, so when he stops struggling he will die. Only Guts nows when that will be, and I think that will be when Griffith is dead.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:48 am
by DarkenRahlX
To answer this topic...Hell no.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:38 am
by MrFelony
hehe i thought you would think that way
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:00 am
by Ayanami
A lot of stuff to read, so I am just going to reply to the first post that Felony started this thread with.
I still think Guts is not controled by fate. I imagine that the area of the page you wish us to focus on is the fact that she states that Guts lived through his destiny. I think this only helps my opinion because she is saying that Guts lived through a destiny in which he was supposed to die. He did it, he beat the system, he is no longer bound to it.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:17 pm
by Khelegond
"He is still alive..."
That's enough to show that he doesn't follow fate. He SHOULD be dead. Now to say that this was predicted is a bit far-fetched
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:31 pm
by Sandman
If the Idea of Evil led Griffith down his path, maybe there is an Idea of Good is leading Guts down his path. Well in an case it is clear that Skull Knight is the driving force for Guts. He is the information giver where his information comes from is beyond me.
That would be a good scene seeing who is pulling all the strings on the good guys side.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:24 pm
by ucrzymofo87
It would be interesting to find out if there is an Idea of Good. That idea seems to make sense because you can't have evil without good opposing it.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:57 pm
by MrFelony
she didnt say that because he follows fate, she said that to show her disciple that it is best to look at reality and not focus on the "aweing" aspects of one side. all your arguements that he should be dead are pointless because HE DIDNT SAVE HIMSELF. in most instances there is some outside force that comes in and allows him a way out. he SHOULD have died a lot, but the situation adn circumstances were arranged so he would be saved
.
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:34 pm
by Necromancer
Why not? It never wasn't there doesn't mean it can't be.