Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

[Phoenix]

First off, to say that nothing is different in the world because of Idea is just absurd. Idea has had a huge impact on the world, and has changed more or less everything. Most people may not know of its exhistence, but that in no way means that it hasn't had an effect.

Oh? Could you elaborate?

Second, you're acting as if Idea has to justify itself, or something. Idea was created because humans believed (and wanted there to be) a higher reason behind their suffering. Idea is that reason. The fact that few no of it is completely irrelevent. Human minds gave it form, and human minds created it, and human minds gave it its directives (be responsible for all suffering). None of that says that the himans involved have to know of its exhistence, and the fact that the world may not be perceptably different to humans is completely irrelevent. If I accidently created something, and didn't realize it at the time, and never went back and saw what I made (and so never even knew that I had created it) that doesn't make the thing that I created any less real, or in any way invalidate its exhistence. In this case, however, Idea was created by the collective uncounscious of all of humanity, not an individual.

But the thing created is not real to the humans. You just changed a reason (chance) with another (Idea). Did the suffering change? Do humans know? Then asides from the reason being switched, nothing changed. Human suffer as much as they did 10K years ago.

[Istvan]

Oh? Could you elaborate?

For the most obvious example, take a look at the Apostles and God's Hand, none of whom would exhist without Idea. For the less obvious examples, go read the part in the lost chapter where Idea describes everything that it did to bring about Griffith (and presumably the other God's Hand, and probably even Apostles). Everything is different because of Idea. Without Idea, the world would be a completely different place.

But the thing created is not real to the humans. You just changed a reason (chance) with another (Idea). Did the suffering change? Do humans know? Then asides from the reason being switched, nothing changed. Human suffer as much as they did 10K years ago.

Yes, the suffering changed. Idea is creating vastly more suffering then would have otherwise occured, which is certainly a change. And again, they don't suffer as much as they did 10K years ago, they probably suffer more. I fail to see why this is even an issue, since Idea was never supposed to decrease suffering. Once again, everything changed. The fact that humans don't know about it is completely irrelevent. Let's try a more concrete example of this. Suppose that a passing supernatural entity randomly gave me the ability that the next thing I wished for would come true, but didn't tell me about it. Let's then say that I, very idly, wished that somewhere in the universe there was a planet whose landmasses where shaped like a smily face, and such a planet instantly appeared. I would have no knowledge that this had occured, and it might not even directly effect my life. But this would not in any way mke the planet less real, and to say that its exhistence would be meaningless, or would have no effect on the galaxy at large, would be completely absurd. This is basically what has happened in Berserk, except that instead of creating a planet, humans created Idea.

[Phoenix]

For the most obvious example, take a look at the Apostles and God's Hand, none of whom would exhist without Idea. For the less obvious examples, go read the part in the lost chapter where Idea describes everything that it did to bring about Griffith (and presumably the other God's Hand, and probably even Apostles). Everything is different because of Idea. Without Idea, the world would be a completely different place.

Perhaps, but let's not confuse ourselves here. While the apostles and God-Hand make people suffer, Griffith's accomplishments have ended the suffering of many people. While perhaps Idea's machinations cause some to suffer, it also relieves others of their suffering. The suffering of mankind as a whole doesn't change.

Yes, the suffering changed. Idea is creating vastly more suffering then would have otherwise occured, which is certainly a change. And again, they don't suffer as much as they did 10K years ago, they probably suffer more.

Oh? You can assure me of this? Many of Idea's plans ease the suffering of some. Right now, less and less people suffer because of Griffith liberating the continent with his little dream.

I fail to see why this is even an issue, since Idea was never supposed to decrease suffering. Once again, everything changed. The fact that humans don't know about it is completely irrelevent. Let's try a more concrete example of this. Suppose that a passing supernatural entity randomly gave me the ability that the next thing I wished for would come true, but didn't tell me about it. Let's then say that I, very idly, wished that somewhere in the universe there was a planet whose landmasses where shaped like a smily face, and such a planet instantly appeared. I would have no knowledge that this had occured, and it might not even directly effect my life. But this would not in any way mke the planet less real, and to say that its exhistence would be meaningless, or would have no effect on the galaxy at large, would be completely absurd. This is basically what has happened in Berserk, except that instead of creating a planet, humans created Idea.

Depends. I see your example more as this: you changed a planet to a smiley face, not it's mass, not it's volume, just the shape. Does this affect the galaxy? Not a bit.

There was suffering before Idea, Idea simply now assumes the role of the reason, but the core suffering hasn't changed.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

more people are suffering cause of idea : the kushan army is leaded by an apostle and slaughtered all in his path;before that,the pest was deadlier than usual and it seems that a godhand caused it;
the evil cults are spreading everywhere...

My opinion about it is that Idea broke the equilibrium : when,in a world without Idea,the populations have periods of peace after disasters,in the berserk world,things are just getting worse disaster after disaster,years after years (and the influence of Idea grows with time and new godhands).

[Phoenix]

Yes, but if it wasn't for Idea, a lot of people who would be suffering aren't. It balances itself out.

[Eldo]

I want to say that the Kushans are also will be suffering if Griffith does fight the war. As we all know, in war, both sides will suffer, regardless of the victor. It just shows who suffers relatively less, but the total sum of people who had suffered because of this war is quite substancial. Unless the Kushans aren't humans either, or that Idea of Evil is strictly a white man's creation and only apply to teh white guyz, then I don't see how suffering would be less, unless you're counting only people from Midland. The way I see it, there isn't a equilibrium for suffering or a balance. Suffering's always been there, but Idea has provided a 'reason' for it, and created the God Hand and apostles. It's my belief that before apostles existed, there was less suffering. Apostles were created and they induce suffering upon to man, wrecking havoc, starting wars, etc.

[Phoenix]

I want to say that the Kushans are also will be suffering if Griffith does fight the war. As we all know, in war, both sides will suffer, regardless of the victor. It just shows who suffers relatively less, but the total sum of people who had suffered because of this war is quite substancial. Unless the Kushans aren't humans either, or that Idea of Evil is strictly a white man's creation and only apply to teh white guyz, then I don't see how suffering would be less, unless you're counting only people from Midland. The way I see it, there isn't a equilibrium for suffering or a balance. Suffering's always been there, but Idea has provided a 'reason' for it, and created the God Hand and apostles. It's my belief that before apostles existed, there was less suffering. Apostles were created and they induce suffering upon to man, wrecking havoc, starting wars, etc.

Let's not mince words. Does Idea create suffering, or merely styles himself as being the reason for it? Is Idea responsible for the suffering caused directly or indirectly by him, or is he also responsible for my stubbing my toe?

[Eldo]

I think you've asked those questions before, from glancing at previous posts, and it's been answered so many times but they don't match what you think the desired answer should be. I won't even bother, I don't like going around in circles. Surely someone would answer you, but I don't think I'm readily equipped with any answers better than theirs.

[Phoenix]

I think you've asked those questions before, from glancing at previous posts, and it's been answered so many times but they don't match what you think the desired answer should be. I won't even bother, I don't like going around in circles. Surely someone would answer you, but I don't think I'm readily equipped with any answers better than theirs.

Actually, this I'm asking *him*. I already know what your answers to those questions are, but since I quoted his post, the questions were directed at him so we could move on.

[Eldo]

You quoted my post, asking me those questions. And now you claim the questions weren't directed to me. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Phoenix]

You quoted my post, asking me those questions. And now you claim the questions weren't directed to me. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Ah, my mistake, I apologize.

You think Idea's ultimately responsible for *all* suffering. I said then all that changed was the reason, not the suffering. This is where you stop answering my questions.

[Eldo]

What I'm saying is that I don't think I could answer your questions anymore than Istvan or anyone can, and you have asked those questions before with someone else answering them. Which is why I won't bother, since my answer would be relatively the same as theirs, and their answer is more clearer and offer more information. The questions you just asked, from glancing at previous posts, has been addressed before and responded by other users, and I don't think my response will make any difference.

[Phoenix]

You give yourself far too little credit. They have said Idea creates more suffering now, but that's not the question I'm asking (though I disagree with this). Idea's plans make some suffer, and relieve others of suffering. If there is no change in the basic suffering, then all idea did was replace the reason.

[psi29a]

You give yourself far too little credit. They have said Idea creates more suffering now, but that's not the question I'm asking (though I disagree with this). Idea's plans make some suffer, and relieve others of suffering. If there is no change in the basic suffering, then all idea did was replace the reason.

You didn't ask a question, you stated an opinion.

Since little to no progress has been made in the thread in the past week, you guys let us know if you think this thread is through and needs a lock because it should be obvious that Phoenix will keep posting so long as you post in response, regardless of content.

btw... where has my e-thug gone? Femto!

[LordMune]

btw... where has my e-thug gone? Femto!

Quoted for need.

[MrFelony]

DarkenRahl stopped posting quite a while ago

[Skullkracker]

and he's not the only one...I wonder where this forum will be in two more years

10000 registered members and 10 regualrs remaining perhaps

[psi29a]

Eh, not my concern. If I made money off you guys, perhaps I would care more. If you stay, you stay, if you don't... oh well.

EG and Mindwerks crew will still be around.

[Skullkracker]

That's what I wanted to hear!

Gimme more Berserk!

[Istvan]

Perhaps, but let's not confuse ourselves here. While the apostles and God-Hand make people suffer, Griffith's accomplishments have ended the suffering of many people. While perhaps Idea's machinations cause some to suffer, it also relieves others of their suffering. The suffering of mankind as a whole doesn't change.

Which logic only works if you ignore the fact that the entire Kushan invasion was created to give Griffith a backdrop, and all of the suffering he's "eased" (a relatively small amount so far, compared to the invasion as a whole) wouldn't have occured at all if not for him, I'm highly dubious that the suffering eased in any way matches that caused. This is especially true when you consider that Griffith is the first God's Hand to enter the world, and until he entered it, none of the Apostles have ever done anything except create additional suffering. The assertation that this is somehow "balanced" is just absurd. Can you come up with any example besides Griffith of Idea "lessening" suffering? Because Griffith certainly isn't doing any such thing, he's the reason for the suffering that he's "relieving".

Depends. I see your example more as this: you changed a planet to a smiley face, not it's mass, not it's volume, just the shape. Does this affect the galaxy? Not a bit.

You're totally missing the point. First, I said that the planet "appeared" not that one changed (even if it just changed, that would have a profound effect on anything that might have been living on it), so that would, subtly, effect the gravitational tides of the galaxy. Second, if any intelligent race (including humanity at some future point) came across a planet whose landmasses exactly formed a smily face, you can't tell me that this wouldn't have any effect on them, and their view of the universe. And so on, and so forth.

Let's not mince words. Does Idea create suffering, or merely styles himself as being the reason for it? Is Idea responsible for the suffering caused directly or indirectly by him, or is he also responsible for my stubbing my toe?

This has been covered many times. In the Berserk world, if you suffer (in any way (and I wouldn't really classify "stubbing a toe" a suffering, by the way. Painful, maybe, but suffering has conotations of being much more severe then this)) it is only because Idea manipulated Causality to bring that suffering about. Idea more or less controlls the Berserk world.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

Alright, I did not read every message so warn me if things that I am about to say are already said.

I do think that Idea has huge and profound influence on people in Berserk. Idea constantly creates reasons for suffering, but what does it practically means when taken to its extremes? What is the whole concept of aristocracy and holy wars and stuff really about? How did it all start?

Well as Istvan said, when someone falls from horse and dies, his family can hardly be satisfied with true explanations like: well he was at the wrong place in the wrong time. Nope, it has to be something more 'profound' like bad arrangement of stars or something.

In real life priests and others are in charge to provide those 'higer' explanations. When aristocrat wants to go to a war with another nation, true reasons are generally plundering and stuff. But no one says to a mother whose son died in a battle: "Your son died to make your lord rich". No, it has to be a holy crusade or some stupid shit like that. One can define religion as organized provider of false causes to certain events.

In metaphysics of Berserk human beings seem to have the power of creating stuff with their brains (both spiritual and real objects). We see that Schierke is able to create real floods (with help of elemental kings) and Guts is able to became super strong by his willpower (it is stated in manga that Berserker armor merely eliminates pain and unlocks true strenghts of human body, it does not increase strenght, so Guts makes himself more powerful). So human constant pursuit of creating false reasons for everything eventually resulted in Idea. Idea then created aristocracy (who believe that their power is given to them by god, remember what Griffith said) and started a proces of eliminathing competition (thus creating Inquisition) so no group of people can ever create another spiritual being.

I do not think that Idea "balances itself out" as Phoenix suggested. When Kushan emperor kills 1000 people and then Griffith comes and kill 1000 Kushan soliders, we have 2000 people dead for false reasons, not 0. So yes, creating false reasons for something does make a difference in the world and it makes some atrocities, like holy wars, possible.

[Albator]

In metaphysics of Berserk

Good one. You guys are almost there

[MrFelony]

In metaphysics of Berserk human beings seem to have the power of creating stuff with their brains (both spiritual and real objects). We see that Schierke is able to create real floods (with help of elemental kings) and Guts is able to became super strong by his willpower (it is stated in manga that Berserker armor merely eliminates pain and unlocks true strenghts of human body, it does not increase strenght, so Guts makes himself more powerful). So human constant pursuit of creating false reasons for everything eventually resulted in Idea. Idea then created aristocracy (who believe that their power is given to them by god, remember what Griffith said) and started a proces of eliminathing competition (thus creating Inquisition) so no group of people can ever create another spiritual being.

the berserker armor rids a person of pain so that the person donning the armor wouldn't be limited by pain and thus could do things that pain woudl normally stop him from accomplishing.

[psi29a]

please keep in mind this is a work of fiction and miura is like a kid in a 'metaphorical' cafe picking and choosing from the real-world what tid-bits he wants to put in Berserk. tread carefully.

Trying to make sense of it all (as a work of fiction) can cause aneurysms.

[MrFelony]

exactly. thats why i think its a little silly to go this far into theory about a moot point