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i meant subconcence"Concentration makes thoughts, solid thoughts (Like when Sheirk imagined the apple with eyes shut) will make Thought Forms. A think called Super Form is created when a mass collective ubconcence gains genneraly the same ideals and believes in it completly"
[21:35] Aazealh: what post?
[21:35] psi29a: the one at the end
[21:35] psi29a: by me
[21:35] Aazealh: k
[21:35] psi29a: i can post it here if you want
[21:35] Aazealh: no it's cool
[21:36] Aazealh: starts with Chaos Theory right?
[21:36] psi29a: someone brought it up, and brushed it aside.
[21:36] psi29a: and I brushed it...
[21:36] Aazealh: yeah it's bullshit
[21:36] psi29a: i agree
[21:36] psi29a: however, i move on to the crux
[21:37] Aazealh: well
[21:37] Aazealh: You're right in that there's no Fate in Berserk.
[21:37] psi29a: *nods*
[21:37] Aazealh: People are often mistaken about it
[21:37] Aazealh: Now, the free will vs fate thing isn't really classical in Berserk
[21:38] Aazealh: it's one of the themes, but it's not addressed in a conventional way
[21:38] Aazealh: And it's not even a main theme currently
[21:38] psi29a: It is a classic theme that is used in literature and in debate.
[21:38] Aazealh: yeah
[21:38] psi29a: I was saying that it is used in Berserk effectively.
[21:38] Aazealh: Well, you shouldn't forget that Idea's motto is "do as you will"
[21:38] Aazealh: There's a twist here
[21:39] Aazealh: The Idea of Evil makes people so that they want something it wants them to want
[21:39] psi29a: 'do as you will' however Idea himselves tweaks things in his favor by nudging here and there.
[21:39] Aazealh: Yeah
[21:39] Aazealh: So basically, people have free will
[21:39] Aazealh: But the world around them is made so that they decide what one wants them to
[21:40] Aazealh: Their will is what is planned for them to wish
[21:40] psi29a: of course, and 'fate' is an illusion, but to the layperson (humans in the berserk world).. it seems more like fate.
[21:40] Aazealh: It's pretty vicious
[21:40] Aazealh: Well, "fate" is used as an expression in Berserk
[21:40] Aazealh: like in our world
[21:40] Aazealh: The point is that there's no working force called Fate.
[21:41] psi29a: 'guess i was fated to do that' which isn't the same as "Fate" that knows all.
[21:41] Aazealh: exactly
[21:41] Aazealh: equivalent to what people can call luck
[21:41] Aazealh: bad luck, good luck
[21:41] psi29a: anyway you can expand on this in a post yourself?
[21:41] Aazealh: well I've posted about it on SK.net a lot
[21:41] psi29a: or do you mind if i repost your thoughts?
[21:41] Aazealh: you can post what I said, it's cool
[21:41] psi29a: have a link handy? I can cross post to sk.net's threads.
[21:42] Aazealh: well, nope sorry
[21:42] Aazealh: you should be able to find it though
[21:42] psi29a: i site the encylopedia a lot
[21:42] Aazealh: hehe
[21:42] psi29a: k
[21:43] psi29a: Do you think Miura is exploring the posiblity that God is very real, however was ultimately created by man. In being created by man, and being imagined by man, and more importantly our subconcious yearning for something more beyond that which he/she sees in front of them.
[21:43] psi29a: ?
[21:43] Aazealh: Well, yes.
[21:44] Aazealh: The Idea of Evil exists, and it calls itself God
[21:44] Aazealh: And for all we know, it is a God.
[21:44] Aazealh: But it has its limits
[21:44] Aazealh: And it's not a creator
[21:44] Aazealh: It didn't create the world.
[21:44] Aazealh: Rather, it came to be created by humanity's collective consciousness
[21:44] psi29a: I don't address the creationof the world
[21:44] psi29a: nor does MIura
[21:45] Aazealh: Its dark side, more specifically
[21:45] psi29a: so I don't touch that
[21:45] Aazealh: Yeah, it's pure speculation
[21:45] Aazealh: This whole topic is very delicate anyway
[21:46] Aazealh: The basic reasoning for the creation of the Idea of Evil as we know it is that it was created because mankind as a whole was ignorant.
[21:46] Aazealh: It desired reasons for its pain and misery.
[21:47] Aazealh: So it was born
[21:47] Aazealh: From the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness
[21:47] Aazealh: Its goal is to provide men with reasons for all the bad things in the world
[21:47] Aazealh: And it does it very well
[21:47] Aazealh: However, it'd be a mistake to think the Idea of Evil is dependant of mankind
[21:47] psi29a: ah, that hits the nail on the head.
[21:47] Aazealh: As far as we know, it's manipulating it now.
[21:48] psi29a: now that it has manifested itself thanks to mankind, it can move along on it's own
[21:48] Aazealh: And it's scheming so that bad stuff happens more and more, etc.
[21:48] Aazealh: Yep
[21:48] Aazealh: It's got a will on its own
[21:49] Aazealh: What's also interesting to point out is how the Idea of Evil, the God Hand and the apostles are different from elemental magic in Berserk.
[21:49] Aazealh: The Elemental Kings aren't "good" in themselves, but they're "pure." They don't know good and bad and thus cannot be corrupted, for they represent elements in their most basic form.
[21:51] Aazealh: They can be seen as being essentially good, but the problem is that they have no interest in humanity. So for mankind, they might not be all that beneficial.
[21:51] Aazealh: On the contrary, the Idea of Evil and its creations are in essence "human magic."
[21:51] Aazealh: They're the result of humanity's collective consciousness.
[21:52] Aazealh: We don't know how it works and might never do, but that opposition is interesting.
[21:52] Aazealh: We also don't know if the two powers are really opposed or not. I do think the Elemental King and their allies, whoever they may be, could see a threat in tthe God Hand and what they represent.
[21:54] psi29a: so you speculate that a future unseen force could posite itself against the neo-band of the hawks and apostles, god-hand and Idea in general?
[21:54] Aazealh: Well, not really.
[21:54] Aazealh: I think the Elemental Kings could oppose them
[21:54] Aazealh: But I don't see it being direct
[21:54] Aazealh: I think they'll mostly stay aside
[21:55] Aazealh: Because the God Hand, Idea, etc are mostly affecting humanity
[21:55] Aazealh: Idea might plan to change the world, but for now its concentrating itself on mankind.
[21:55] Aazealh: At least, from what we can see.
[21:55] Aazealh: Anyway, these guys on your forum seem to be a bit confused about Guts too.
[21:56] Aazealh: I'm not sure if anybody's said he's "outside of fate" yet, but it's typical really.
[21:56] psi29a: Doesn't Idea get it's direction and motivation by humans? or now that it is created, it pretty much is self-guiding at thispoint?
[21:56] Aazealh: I think it's mostly self-guiding
[21:56] Aazealh: It's one of those things we can't really be sure of
[21:57] Aazealh: It might still follow a vague direction set by mankind, but I think it's mostly moving on its own.
[21:57] Aazealh: Sort of like SkyNET :-p
[21:58] Aazealh: But seriously, I don't think it's really listening to mankind anymore as much as mankind is listening to it
[21:58] Aazealh: It's already doing stuff on a really big scale, and apparently has been for long
[21:59] psi29a: ah, so there are a few individuals left who may not see the full picture but don't like what they see currently and are fighting against Idea?
[21:59] Aazealh: Well, at least there's the Skull Knight =)
[22:00] Aazealh: But you know, it's hard to say that people know about the Idea of Evil
[22:00] Aazealh: The God Hand does
[22:00] Aazealh: Its 5 members saw it
[22:00] Aazealh: But apart from them...
[22:00] Aazealh: And to be able to escape causality's grasp, I think you have to be in the Interstice, like Guts.
[22:01] Aazealh: Otherwise it's most probably quasi-impossible
[22:01] psi29a: Doesn't Guts bring people who are around them into the Interstice?
[22:01] Aazealh: Even for Guts it's already quasi-impossible in fact
[22:01] Aazealh: Well, that's also a theory (of mine)
[22:01] Aazealh: Basically
[22:01] Aazealh: The Interstice isn't something definite
[22:02] Aazealh: People around Guts and Casca are sensible to it
[22:02] psi29a: its the borderworld between reality and astral world?
[22:02] Aazealh: So I imagine there's a range aroudn branded people where the Interstice reaches stuff yeah
[22:02] Aazealh: Yes
[22:02] Aazealh: But borderworld isn't totally correct
[22:02] Aazealh: It's more a place where does layers overlap
[22:02] Aazealh: both
[22:02] Aazealh: not does
[22:02] Aazealh: sorry
[22:03] psi29a: Would Flora and Elfheim be in the astral realm, is it a projection into the real world?
[22:03] Aazealh: Flora's mansion lied deep in the Interstice
[22:03] psi29a: gotcha
You could see it like that, or you could also see it as being symbolic/metaphoric representations.Istvan wrote:While I would accept that certain elements of the story help us to see portions of the human condition, and thus resonate with us, I would in no way agree that the story as a whole is a reflection of reality. One of the big reasons for such stories (and their beauty) is that they can help to show and portray humans under conditions that could never occur in reality.True, I did not express my whole view there. My belief is, that the reason the world seen in berserk resonates in our minds with such exquisite vigor, is because it is a reflection of the absolute truth of the whole, it is a reflection of this world. All such works that seem to excel for the many, including those used by the various religions, do so for they reveal the deeper meanings of this reality to the mind. I feel it is this revelation that so intensely captivates the mind.
I have no idea what that is, however.. if it pertains to berserk, then explain.Orthanos wrote:what do you guys think of the "Law thoughts on the Law of thought creation".
More info here:The Theory of Forms typically refers to Plato's belief that the material world as it seems to us is not the real world, but only a shadow of the real world. Plato spoke of forms (sometimes capitalized in translations: The Forms) in formulating his solution to the problem of universals. The forms, according to Plato, are roughly speaking archetypes or abstract representations of the many types and properties (that is, of universals) of things we see all around us.
Mmmmm... Idea of Evil.Form and idea are terms used to translate the Greek word eidos (plural eide). "Idea" is a misleading translation, because for Plato, the eide do not exist in the human mind.
According to Plato's view, there is a form for every corresponding type of object in reality: forms of dogs, human beings, mountains, colors, courage, love, and goodness. Indeed, for Plato, God is identical to the Form of the Good. Forms exist in a "Platonic heaven," and when people die, their souls achieve reunion with the forms. Plato makes it clear that souls originate in this "Platonic heaven" and have recollection of it even in life.
Humans have a tendancy to concentrate on the bad things after all, as Idea says "you know this place is terribly human."
. there was a lot of debate about whethere there is a god of good or what have you that works with the 5 elemental kings or whatever they are called (who seem sort of like a good god hand heh)OK so is it that the God Hand is a manifestation of the Idea of Evil or the Idea of Evil in itself?psi29a wrote:THere is never once a mention of an opposite to Idea of Evil, that is why in Berserk it is referred to as Idea or God, because there is no equal.
The only 'opposite' if you will would be the Elemental Kings, but they are not concerned with Humans while Idea is. It is the collective human subconcious over time that wanted a reason for why all the bad shit happens in the world. So Idea is human self manifestation.
There is no idea of 'good'.
To say nothing of the Berserk world-- I think its commonly accepted that God is inherently 'good' by definition.MrFelony wrote:you weren't the first to bring up the idea though
Newp, no where in the definition of God does 'good' exist. So no, by definition, God is not inherently 'good'.Dictionary.com wrote:god Audio pronunciation of "god" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gd)
n.
1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
So once again... 'Good' has failed to enter into the definition of God.wikipedia wrote:One Islamic tradition states that Allah has 99 names while others say that all good names belong to Allah. Similarly, in the Aramaic of Jesus, the word Alaha is used for the name of God.
I won't tackle the real world God thing right now...psi29a wrote:except for the fact that 'God' is the Idea of Evil... leave your 'good' god out of here.
Depends on context, in some religious God (s) are not inherently good. So what you except as obvious isn't always so with other people.
Lets look it up anyway:
Newp, no where in the definition of God does 'good' exist. So no, by definition, God is not inherently 'good'.Dictionary.com wrote:god Audio pronunciation of "god" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gd)
n.
1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
Just to be sure I checked wikipedia, and in the 5 pages of text 'good' is only referenced once here:
So once again... 'Good' has failed to enter into the definition of God.wikipedia wrote:One Islamic tradition states that Allah has 99 names while others say that all good names belong to Allah. Similarly, in the Aramaic of Jesus, the word Alaha is used for the name of God.
Yeah I thought that too. I was just wanting to clarify, because we are discussing the notion of fate in the Berserk universe. I think that maybe that could be governed by an underlying, superceding God/nature presence(formless and timeless).psi29a wrote:So far Miura has never spent any time inking or writing about God other than the Idea of Evil. There various religions, including the current situtation the city under the protection of the Holy See (something similiar to real world Roman Catholic Church).
However, it is never discussed and from the manga itself it seems that all the religious or cults we see actually end up haveing apostles as their 'god' or leaders.
This leads us believe that most of the cults and religions thus far are under the manipulation of Idea of Evil.
If you look at the cult scene with the whores dancing around/fucking around the statue... the statue itself looks very (VERY) similiar to Slann, one of the God-Hand.
However, most people in the Berserk world do not know that Idea of Evil exists. We do know that some believe in a God, but again Miura doesn't touch on that. When he does, we get Mozgus and more apostles killing innocent people in the name of faith.
psi29a wrote:You are on the right path, however I must reiterate that Miura has never once suggested that there is anything beyond the Idea of Evil... that Idea of Evil and the Maelstrom is the end-all be-all of Berserk at the moment.
In the context of Berserk, if Miura wanted something above everything.. he would have written it. Thus far, what we have is what we have... our framework so to speak.
Obviously it is that and has been analyzed plenty, I'm just bringing it up in this instance to argue that maybe it is possible.psi29a wrote:It was a metaphore, it has been analyzed over and over again. Goto Skullknight.net if you don't believe me.
Needless to say, it is safe to assume that there is nothing beyond Idea of Evil in Berserk other than the 4 elemental Kings.
Which is one reason I love the Berserk Universe so much.psi29a wrote:There is no Idea of Good. More imporantly, there is no God in the Berserk universe other than IOE.
Really? My impression was always that while the 4 Elemental Kings might (we don't really know) be able to challenge the God's Hand, they were far less then Idea. Because (and correct me if I'm wrong) weren't the Elemental Kings also created by humanity? By humans imagining the embodiment of elemental forces? My impression from the explanation we got was that all elemental creatures, from the slyphs, salamanders, and elves all the way up to the Elemental Kings, were created by humanity. And I also got the impression that although extremely powerful, they were less then Idea. After all, a suficiently awesome magic user might be able to channel one of them, but can you imagine anyone doing the same with Idea? Besides, they reside deep in the Astral world, but at a point that the human mind can journey to, whereas Idea is much, much, much deeper in, past the Maelstorm, past which no human mind can journey and return. So I'm pretty sure that Idea itself is far beyond the Elemental Kings, and has little, if anything, to fear from them.... *sigh* it has been brought up time and time again. The official EG and SK.Net understanding is that Idea of Evil is it, and the only possible worry IOE has is form the Elemental Kings... but they could care less about the affairs of humans.
So basically the God Hand and Idea of Evil is unnassailable except for the 4 Elemental Kings? Why do we even follow the story of Gatts if his aims are utterly impossible without exception? Why do the 4 Elemental Kings even exist if they have no bearing on the interaction of the GH and Idea of Evil over the world?psi29a wrote:... *sigh* it has been brought up time and time again. The official EG and SK.Net understanding is that Idea of Evil is it, and the only possible worry IOE has is form the Elemental Kings... but they could care less about the affairs of humans.
There is no Idea of Good. More imporantly, there is no God in the Berserk universe other than IOE.