What has Berserk done to shape the way you perceive reality?

[Flora]

Hello! First post, first forum ever.

I'm sure our omnipotent admin's have discussed this topic thoroughly so i'm placing it for all us newbies.

If the chief function of art is to liberate the imagination, what has Berserk done to shape the way you perceive reality?

Personally, Berserk has become a perfect model for my understanding of archetypes. In Gutts I see the perfect example of the shadow, our anti-ego. Our identity can be summarised by who we wish to be and who we don't- Gutts is one of the best fictional figures representing this binary opposition IMO. He's almost like an Alice or a Heathcliff.

Vegetable caska being Gutt's anima is also really disturbing.

Reading Berserk has also given me unlimited imagery that tends to sprout up when I deal with poetry. William Blake has never been the same again.

Right- what do you guys think?

edit: i split this from newbie thread, i though it was pretty damn interesting. -- psi29a

[MrFelony]

welcome! interesting topic, and no i don't think it's been brought up in quite the way you have. it's nice to see a well read, imo, person apply berserk to the likes of William Blake lol. and i never thought I'd say William Blake and lol in the same sentence. As for Guts being a perfectly binary model, i would disagree. i feel guts had, especially during his dark times, a deep desire to emulate griffith. its pretty obvious by all his talk of ants and selfishness. thank god for puck pulling him out of it .

even now, guts has a huge struggle within himself between his desire to kill griffith and be with/heal casca. even though he has committed to healing casca, the thought of forgetting her and leaving to kill griffith will always be there. however i may have misinterpreted what you said, if so elaborate .

[Flora]

Greetings Mr. Felony!

By binary model i meant the contrast between the ego and anti-ego and what Gutt's tries to be, compared to what he already is- beast/human, leader/follower, lover/fighter etc. So not a binary in itself but the constant representation of dichotomies in human behavior throughout Gutts' development.

That's what stings me about the simple binaries though, the Skull Knight said to Gutts vol18 'are you going to fight the war, or save that person? You can only do one. You can't achieve both'

Choosing between Caska and Griffith and who will demand his attention more does destroy Gutts' lover/fighter binary. Regardless of this, there's no possible way a final Gutts/Griffith showdown will just be passed up- the construction and inner stuggle remains...

thanks for the reply felony, i don't know if it's Berserk's power to consume my thoughts but I'm finding strange parallels between Blake and Miura lately- that's another topic altogether however!

[psi29a]

Welcome Flora, good stuff.

While Skullknight does point out that Guts has only one choice, I do believe that choice will be postponed till the very last. I'm also very unsure that Miura has even thought about how it will end, typically writers map out everything before they write in the first place.

I peg you as more of an English major, perhaps even a psychology major. However if you are the later then we are all screwed.

the archtypes are a literary relic and I'm not to sure that it can cover all the ground. Look at Casca, (and some of the cast members) of which are currently 1 dimensional and Guts' seemingly 2 dimensional, or in your own words, one polar end of a bi-polar system for Caska while Guts vacillate between the two extremes.

Casca is no longer a leader, she is no longer a fighter, she technically is no longer 'human' as far as thoughts go. Casca is literally Gut's other half in the bi-polar dichotomy which allows Guts to be the beast, leader, fighter. So long as they are together I believe they can be considered one character.

What will happen post-vegatable-caska is unknown to me.

[Facade19]

Very interesting topic.
I will try my best to express how Berserk shaped my perception and understanding of reality.

Based on my personal interpretative understanding I think that our reality is shaped by our own will. Our will to mold a world that will suit me as a person is the task of my being in existence in this world. My world is the world that my mental faculties come to know (whether one can fully know the world is a different question). Seeing Griffith (and after having read the lost chapter), ones will is a powerful mimesis of ones own self.

Now there are certainly aspects to the will (knowable and unknowable). I think within that will we find a common ground in where all humans share a transhuman connection. My will does not just come to be from nothing, but rather by my social reality and upbringing. This leads me to question whether the I, the me, is nothing more than a social construction by the past, and the present, and ultimately the future. Is it within that where the transcendantality is found (human interconnection of a common mind)?

Ah I guess what I am trying to say is that I doubt whether the individual is real, or a product of the web of consciousness that has determinative power in our path construement.

[Muddtoad]

I was afraid a very unique and interesting thread would be born someday and make me emerge from my leeching. After reading some of the insightful and imaginative ideas and symbols people are revealing, I have the urge to reread all of Berserk and re-develop my own theories. I just need to find the time...

Berserk does an excellent job of bringing out the imagination and theoretical philosophy from its readers. It's much more than blood and "guts". So much more. I have never seen so much intellectual thought come from one Manga like I have from Berserk-- through reading EG's forums. I am thankful for this community where people like you Flora evoke the thoughts of others. I'll be sure to pitch in to this thread every now and then. I hope it becomes a popular one.

One thing that has always drawn me to Berserk is the idea of Guts as a wanderer. I've always been intrigued by his attitude to be alone. Then how he eventually changes when he is joined by Puck and the others. First he is alone, then joins the Band of the Hawk and Griffith, then he is alone again, then Puck and gang come along. I think this in a way reflects Emerson’s Walden. Emerson tries to live alone and eventually fails. Human beings are drawn to social activity. No matter how long you live in solitude, the need for others will always arise. We even see how the apostles flock to one another in the same way. Humans need each other. I’ll develop this theory more later, after I reread Berserk again.

[MrFelony]

congrats flora on being the first new member to actually get a topic created from the newbie thread . I'll get around to commenting on peoples topics in a bit. but berserk has been an interesting experience because berserk has brought out my own ideas of whether or not life is guided by fate or we can struggle against it. I've come to the conclusion that life is guided by a higher being, but from our perspective, or frame of reference, we feel as if we have free will.

[Eedze]

As not a native English speaker, I can't rely on a large English vocabularity. however this topic is indeed way to interesting to skip so i'm having dictionairy and wiki help me a little.

For me, Berserk is mainly a good story as are there many. its a story, you read, and then read it again in your mind for the next few days. (saying i read a chapter. the whole story took me much longer to read) its very realistic to read, you get sucked into another reality until the last page. however, to me its just like a very good story. I enjoy it but it doesn't chance the way i live. you could more say it adds to my live experience. and all together with other things you experience in live it will shape your personality. then what part of your personality could you connect to the Berserk anime.

i could say it slightly changed a lot of little things like how you see people, how you react to certain events, your ideas about life.
also its sometimes you see, hear or do something wich then reminds you to a certain scene in the Berserk manga

some people say reading comics with violence, gore, rape and bad language makes people do those things just like they say that teenagers who shoot people in schools probably played violent games or seen violent movies. i don't really believe in this. altough it might bring you some ideas, i think violence already is in the people. I know that reading berserk did not change me into a bad person. therefor i know the difference between reality and fantasy well enough

[Flora]

Wow, what a great response!

Some of your thoughts really grabbed me though:

Facade19 wrote: My will does not just come to be from nothing, but rather by my social reality and upbringing. This leads me to question whether the I, the me, is nothing more than a social construction by the past, and the present, and ultimately the future. Is it within that where the transcendantality is found (human interconnection of a common mind)?

It's such a coincidence this was brought up as it connects perfectly to my original discussion of archetypes. A psychologist by the name of Carl Jung coined the term for the 'interconnection of minds' as the collective unconscious. Jung believes that our personal consciousness (our ego, self-image, and consequent memories) are a result of the collective unconscious which is the product of all human experience and manifests itself in, you guessed it, archetypes. These archetypes are forms in the psyche which seem to be present in all human behavior and which create a shared 'humanity' through our awareness of motifs- the orphan, the hero, the teacher, the fool, the seducer, God. Why do we all see Gutts as the hero, Gutts as the orphan, Gutts as the follower and then leader? Because if the theory is correct, these archetypes originate in pre-logical thought, so they evoke similar feelings in all of us. Of course this incorporates Muddtoad's theory as well of humans inevitably being social creatures- all motifs are ways in which we represent ourselves to others!

And to quote Facade19 again (hehe I loved the ideas in your post if you can't tell):

Seeing Griffith (and after having read the lost chapter), ones will is a powerful mimesis of ones own self.

Which gets me thinking about Miura's representation of the esoteric- the inner consciousness and the importance of will and thought in ones life. The esoteric understanding of the universe is based on thought forms- "On the physical plane, thoughts are just thoughts. On the psychic planes, thoughts are things. They have a life and a reality of their own. They can continue to exist even independently of the person who thought them. They go out in the world and influence their environment They are dynamic, and seek material expression and actualization. They try to actualize in the physical, no matter how weakly (or some cases strongly) the circumstances corresponding to their configuration" http://www.kheper.net/realities/Psychic ... tforms.htm

All the character's thoughts in Berserk do shape the play of their own phenomenal experience (whether outside the hands of 'fate' i don't have a clue) so I think that Miura does use esoteric philosophy. Alice Bailey, one famous esoteric writer, almost described 'Gutts' persona when she was discussing negative thought forms:

"A thought-form can also act as a poisoning agent, and poison all the springs of life....A violent dislike, a gnawing worry, a jealousy, a constant anxiety, and a longing for something or someone, may act so potently as an irritant or poison that the entire life is spoilt, and service is rendered futile. The entire life is embittered and devitalized by the embodied worry, hatred and desire....and is held back by the poison in his mental system. His vision becomes distorted, his nature corroded, and all his relationships impeded by the wearing, nagging thoughts which he himself embodies in form and which have a life so powerful that they can poison him."

Lol, if that doesn't come any closer to the Black Swordsman and even to Griffith I don't know what will.

[lordhep]

I am involved in local politics (republican executive committee) as an officer. The officer meetings usually degenerate into us just shooting the shit about whatever is going on and why. Quite often when the topic turns to ambition, war, character, or even sacrifice my mind often wanders back to the eclipse.... especially the monologue given to griffith about building the bridge. Very Machievellian (spelling?)

When I consider that everyone involved in the organization has their own reason for being there it also makes me think of the band of the hawk...

-Hep

[Ziggamafu]

As a practicing Catholic, Berserk has helped in the shaping of my theological understanding and thus shaped the way my faith plays out in my personal life. It may very well be only because I go into the novels as a Catholic that I come out of them with Catholic lessons, I don't know. But the seemingly Catholic themes are so strong that I frequently wonder if the author is Catholic, was Catholic, or hates Catholicism. In any case, Berserk shows me what negative interpretations and uses of religion may do to our world and at the same time what positive interpretations and uses of religion may do for our world.

My first post, by the way. I'll take the time here to thank everyone who has made my downloads possible over the last couple of years.
Thank you. So. Very. Much.

[psi29a]

I think miura is tapping into this whole thing the 'right way' because we all come different walks of life, gender, ethnicity, politics, and beliefs and still find Berserk enjoyable and more importantly we can at least talk about it.

We all get something out of Berserk, a work of fiction. As if Miura is Femto/Griffith and we are his Band of the Hawk. Loyal to a fault.

[Khelegond]

As if Miura is Femto/Griffith and we are his Band of the Hawk. Loyal to a fault.

Don't say that... or else Femto (both versions) will claim he's Gatts, because he now hates Berserk, and therefore has vowed to kill Miura...ok, now I'm stretching it a little bit.

About that has changed... well, I got more from this forum from reading Berserk than from only reading it. I mean, it's one thing to read it, and other to discuss with the sharp minds this place has to offer. We start seeing different points of view, different aspects of the characters... and that changes the way you start reading others comics (in my case, anyway). C'mon, how many of you have started reading another manga and said "Crappy, I can't find a good forum to discuss this"? I know I did it a couple of times...

[hardboot]

I've got to admit that Berserk has been a really influential manga to date. The in-depth storyline has touched several interesting aspects of the human life. This can be noticed mainly in the evolution each individual character has been going through since the beginning.

The one character's story which I've found the most interesting, even though most hate him, is that of Griffith. Griffith has been made out as the protagonist of this story just because his views differ from that of Guts. If we take an objective point of view, we can see that Griffiths objectives have remained the same since the beginning, to attain the throne and create a kingdom. Both Bands of the Hawk were formed from people/apostles which were drawn to Griffith's incredible charisma which is originating from his deep desire to attain his dream. Griffith is the embodiment of an immutable will to achieves one's dream. He has made several sacrifices to demonstrate this : the selling of his body to the master of the tower, the sending of his troops to battle, the sacrifice of the initial Band of the Hawks, and the forming of the new Band of the Hawks. All these steps were taken in the ultimate goal of attaining the throne. Granted most were very self-centered actions but this reinforces Griffith's character : In order to attain one's ultimate dream, one will have to forget all else and sacrifice much.

Such as the vision he had during the Eclipse : the road to the castle will be paved with the bodies of the your fallen comrades.

I'm just curious to see how the story will conclude on this matter.

[MPD Psycho]

Grand thread, Flora

I`ve got to agree that there are very few comics(mangas) as complex as Berserk. Working on so many levels from personality development through magic to general truths of universe.

As for the matter of unity of minds and mass (un)consiousness and Jung`s conception etc I`d like to recommend this movie----

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... t+morrison

Here, Grant Morison explains some of te aspects of personality development, magic and God/human relation etc. If you haven`t read "Invisibles" than it`s mandatory to watch this:D

As for Mudtoad`s theory I can only add that IMO one can develop greatly through contact with othe4rs. Other people being a reflection of a man, allowing him to see things he couldn,t perceive without them.They`re a "looking glass" which thorugh one can see multile aspects and ways of life.

Sorry for misspelling :]:]
Regards

[Starnum]

What has Berserk done to shape the way I perceive reality? Honestly, I’m not sure if I could put it into words. Heh, if I think of anything, I’ll be sure to give it a try. All I can really say is that it’s been the most influential manga in my life, and for an otaku like me, that’s saying something.

[freegood]

The Idea is such a profound concept to wrap around that I'm not sure how I would apply it to real life. But it's definitely a great exercise in thinking. Ultimately, if we created the Idea, who created us....

As for the dislike of Griffith, the parallels between him and Guts is still ongoing. If anything, their development should tell us how easy it is to become different (as in black and white) by the tiny decisions we make. Griffith's desire for power prompted him to sacrifice his loyal followers. Every time Guts uses the berserker armor to the fullest carries the risk of sacrificing his friends should he go out of control. You can't excuse Guts for using the armor in self defense because he's choosing to be in those situations where he needs the full power of the armor to win.

[raoh]

the part for me is the "the idea of evil", since ive always believed there is no such thing as true evil, people do what they choose. the series is a really interesting perspective on human nature, and ofcourse pretty cool

[psi29a]

the part for me is the "the idea of evil", since ive always believed there is no such thing as true evil, people do what they choose. the series is a really interesting perspective on human nature, and ofcourse pretty cool

I like where this is going. We can say that there is an 'evil' in Berserk, but that it is only the manifestation of the human subconscious towards strife, pain, self-actualization.

In our world, we can make a very good case that good and evil are just relative terms and that true good and true evil just don't exist. To prove this point, just walk a mile in the person's shoes so to speak.

[dialdfordesi]

Berserk has changed my perceptions mainly through one recurring theme: that not everything that seems so apparent is clear-cut. One example is Griffith. Everyone in The Hawks saw him as this perfect individual and cared for him immensely. He however was not this great person and their lives were forfeit to him if it meant that he would seize power more easily.

In the current arc, this process is repeated with the Midlanders (Midlandians? What exactly would you call the people of Midland?) where they see him as their savior even though he's now a God Hand leading an army of demons and humans who are swept up in his "rescue" of them.

Finally, the Kushan emperor (I think his name's Ganishka, but I'm not so sure) shows has a whole flip-side-of-the-coin persona as well. This is shown when Silat sees the demon-birthing place and also when he sees Ganishka's transformation. Before that, Silat probably just thought that Ganishka's army and Ganishka himself were just parts of a normal conquering empire, but seeing all the demonic stuff seems to have shaken Silat.

I guess my perceptions have been shaped that way because it relates to scientific thought (biology major, heh) in the way that you shouldn't make any conclusions about anything until you have the whole picture.

[Muddtoad]

Berserk helped shape my reality the other day. Well more like inspired me...but while walking 14 hours nonstop on a track for Relay for Life (raises money for cancer patients and research) when my knees began to ache and I wanted to quit, I thought about Guts. No matter how much physical and mental pain he has to endure, he keeps on struggling. Nothing slows him down on his path. Especially when others are at the stake, he is willing to put himself through any amounts of pain to protect them (for example when he uses the black armor which breaks his bones and controls him). So thinking about Berserk gave me the strength to keep going. By studying the characters in Berserk we can apply certain ideas and aspects into our own life.


I've also always been intrigued by Guts' motivation. Throughout a large portion of the manga he never had a goal or a destination. He just wanders from place to place. While that changes later on of course, I've always liked the idea of knowing that even if you don't have a dream or path in life, that you can still find a way to keep alive and make a path for yourself. No matter how bad things get, you can always rise through it. And we all can agree Guts has gone through some pretty intense events...

[MrFelony]

daamn 14 hrs of walking is quite a feet...

but anyway gj on helping out the charity.

[Ziggamafu]

the part for me is the "the idea of evil", since ive always believed there is no such thing as true evil, people do what they choose. the series is a really interesting perspective on human nature, and ofcourse pretty cool

I like where this is going. We can say that there is an 'evil' in Berserk, but that it is only the manifestation of the human subconscious towards strife, pain, self-actualization.

In our world, we can make a very good case that good and evil are just relative terms and that true good and true evil just don't exist. To prove this point, just walk a mile in the person's shoes so to speak.

Hmm...don't forget that Berserk also demonstrates the possibility of (and thus hope for) the human subconscious to manifest itself towards peace and love. If Berserk were nothing but a glorification of violence then I would have quickly lost interest. Manifestos on how much the world sucks tend to be childish and boring. Berserk, like Sin City, shows a world where selfishness begets villainy and selflessness begets heroism - and the only usual way to notice the difference between the two is to discern whose hope tends toward a selfless equality of freedom, justice, integrity, and (especially) dignity and whose hope tends toward the opposite. Heroes like Guts may seem selfish or psychotic at first glance, but it seems to me that upon inspection of his motives and the nature of his desired outcome (specifically in that he ultimately doesn't care what happens to him; his hope is what is most important), we find someone (something?) altogether different from the "bad guys".

[Istvan]

Hmm...don't forget that Berserk also demonstrates the possibility of (and thus hope for) the human subconscious to manifest itself towards peace and love.

I could see where you might say that there's hope for this to eventually occur, but where do you see the series itself actually demonstrating that this is possible? I can't think of any off hand, so I'm curious about what scene you were thinking of.

[Fuji Nagase]

something i always liked about anime is that there is often no clear cut "good guy" and "bad guy". take even something like magic knights rayerth as an example; you were under the impression that zagato was this evil man who stole princess emurade but find out that they were actually in love and he just wanted her to be free and all that. he wasnt evil. selfish maybe because she was the pillar for that world, but still, he wasnt evil. giving both sides (because in a good story there are both sides) really makes for a more interesting story i think.


it moves me when something that seems out of reality can bring such honest feelings to rise. berserk has made me think about my ambitions, how much i am willing to give up, how hard i am willing to work, and so many other things that really influence my day to day actions. berserk has its own reality that as crazy as it is, doesnt seem too far from ours. there is something amazing about berserk that really inspires me to work for things and be strong. its so difficult to try and explain....


wow, okay..lets see if i can do this..

fuji tries to explain:

we can all relate our personalities to characters, right? yup, that actually tends to be why we like that story. i feel that my personality is all of berserk;
griffith is my ambitious and drivin side.
guts is my strong and PTSD, trying to make it work dispite the pain side,
caska is the strong feminine and stressed side,
skull knight is the mysterious wiseman side, who has "been there done that", and so on..

berserk gives me insight to who i am and what some of my possibilities are for those sides of me. although my life doenst depend on berserk, and i was yes, okay without it, it has really changed my life and added so much.


causality is one of the little things i think i believe in, and berserk helps me undestand that.

also, the uncontrolled fate is really interesting to me. i dont want to believe that we cannot control out own fate, for many of the same reasons as guts. i am me and it is not some divine power that dictates what happens to me and what i am supposed to be. i have the power to do what i want, sperate from a control/

berserk has def. changed my reality forever. it effects my art, music, writing, even my personal life a lot. berserk is an amazing story that inspires me in such a powerful way.


i hope there is some coherent writing here. sorry if it isnt...im kinda burnt out right now.


i like the thread though.