Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

[Libaax]

Wow a necro thread getting this much re-vomited info and thoughts... well I guess I might as well add my two cents...

What everyone has to remeber that everything that has happened between them happened for a reseaon... all of it.

Oh and Guts hates Griffith with a passion, and there is no way for Griffith to atone for what he has done to Guts and the world... except for taking his own life... which I dont think will happen, Guts is going to have to take it from him

PS keep the wyrming to a minimum, it just makes people skip over your posts

Haha the wyrming

[EnglishJim]

I just find everyone that tries to "understand" where Griffith went wrong.

Ain't that what this thread's all about? You're right about Griffith not being a good guy before his torture though, thats actually got something to do with what I wrote about.

And, er, I'm not really sure what wyrming is. Could you shed some light on that?

[Eldo]

Wyrm was a member of this forum eons again, and got banned for annoying the hell out of people. He wrote essays that were like, 1000 words. Nobody bothered to read it, but well, I did, and responded to his inane crap.

[MrFelony]

he also got really pissed and deleted all of the content of his last 5 or so posts and left a "weil something mein fuhr" for Psi. they were seriously long, so after that whenever someone wrote a very long post we'd sometimes do a /wyrm as a joke...though people tended to not read them because of it lol

[EnglishJim]

No more Wyrms. Gotcha. You know, you should put that in the Mindwerks FAQ.

Anyways, it's just that this thread was necro'd with an essay and a whole load more followed it. Then I thought you had to write a supersize post just to make a point.

[Eldo]

Some essays are good to read, which is why I don't try to discourage it. But Wyrm's, however, are WAY too LONG.

An example of a Wyrm post (don't say I didn't warn you):

[BIG ASS POST ALERT! PEOPLE WITH LOW ATTENTION SPANS LOOK AWAY!]

First of all Starnum, in spite of the rather hostile tone in your response I will try to keep mine civilized, as I always do. I hate flaming and flamers. Remember kids, you don't have to be an ass to get your point through, though it helps some times.

Well then lets get started. I'll tackle your response one chunk at a time:

Whoa, let's just hold on a second here pal. Since you feel the need to make such a big ass post, and tell us all about it, let me go ahead and set you straight on some of this shit. First all, did you stop reading the manga before Gatts even left the Hawks, or do you just have low reading comprehension? There's a clearly understandable scene, right after Gatts hears Griffith's little spill about what a friend is to him, where Gatts does some deep thinking. He realizes that he has just been fighting to live, and at that point he decides he wants purpose in his life. Gatts hasn't been without ambition, or a dream, in a long ass time pal. So let's not go telling everyone that he still only fights to survive. He has motives deeper than that for what he does now days, and if you don't know that, then you should calm it down, and stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

I'll start by saying that I mistakenly did not write that I was comparing Guts to Griffith as they both were before and up until the eclipse and not after. After the eclipse Griffith died (in my eyes) and was reborn as something else and Guts has changed a lot since he met his new groupies.

At that time Guts did really live by the sword one day at a time. And yes, I would be a idiot to not have understood his motivation for leaving the group from the fountain scene in v06c06 and other instances, so please don't insult my intelligence by implying that I did not. Now, when I said that Guts left his friends without any good reason I was actually not referring to his motivation being trivial rather I was criticizing the poor way in which he chose to carry out those motivations.

But before I further explain that let me point out that Guts had always been toying with the idea of leaving the Hawks, his stay there was always meant to be temporary. He says so several times but I don't feel like sifting though 10+ volumes to find everyone of them. So I'll just mention the following v05c02p73-74 he says (about being with the Hawks) "For the time being", "Just for the time being". Granted that was in the beginning of his joining the Hawks and he seemingly does change his mind in v06c01p30-31 after he hears what Griffith feels for him, but he quickly changes it again later. Also on the same pages we hear that although Guts has not had any ambitions he has since childhood been looking for a answer, I think the question was a reason to live. Lastly I have the excellent "Bonfire of dreams" scene on v07c06p130 where Guts says to Casca, and I quote, "I am just a visitor taking comfort from the flame". Here he is using the flame as a metaphor for everyone's dreams and he relates how he thinks of himself as being below people such as Griffith and the others because they all have dreams they are willing to risk their lives for while he has never had that.

Ok returning to the "Guts not having a good reason to leave the Hawks", I will stand by that even in the face of torture. What I meant by that was not that his ambitions were no good, I merely meant that he did not have to leave the Hawks like that to achieve his goals. His ambition was to no longer to be Griffiths sword, he wanted to go out and find a dream for himself and by dedicating himself to that dream become Griffiths equal and true friend (in Griffiths eyes). Face it, leaving the people you have risked your lives and bonded with on countless battlefields for the last 3 years on a dark snowy night without a word is not the best way to go about starting a journey of self-discovery. Sure it was a very picturesque and very Gutsy (he he) way of doing it, but that doesn't mean Guts was any less of a dick for doing it like that.

Here is how he could have done it that would have showed the respect for his friends and comrades that they deserved. He could have knocked down Griffiths freaking door and told him that he overheard him and the princesses conversation that night by the fountain (v06c06) and upon hearing it he had realized that he wanted to become Griffiths true friend and to do that he needed some time off to find himself. I am sure Griffith would have been very understanding about it all and once the news had been broken to the other Hawks they would have thrown a grand fare thee well party for Guts and had seen him off. Then every once in a while he could have swung by to see his dear old friends while continuing on with his journey. Ok, so Griffith might still not have let him go, but at least he would have scored some good friend points for making the effort, but he didn't.

Of course that happy go lucky scenario would not have worked out in the context of the story Mirua was trying to tell, but never the less, it could have played out like that. So Guts had no good reason to up and leave the Hawks like that. He was being a dick and did not appreciate his friends by doing it like that. But hell, though a dick he was I still love the man. He is the anti-hero after all, he was just playing the part, and well.

And don't even get me started on how he left the Hawks just to lock himself up in a cave for a year only to come in time to realize that he might never find the answer (v09c08p166), seriously. Then ever so slightly later find out that he had already found the answer.

This leads me to mention another important thing. Guts actually didn't need to leave the Hawks after all, not even for his so called ambition. Why can I say this? Because he realizes this himself in v12c02p37. There Guts says and I quote "My place was really here. But I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here... at that time."

There you go, directly from the horses mouth itself. After Guts screwed everything up by leaving and sending the Hawks down the spiral of destruction he returns only to discover that what he left them to look for has always been here and he let his loner nature blind him from seeing it. So yeah, if Guts had appreciated his friends more he just might have realized that he had no actual need to leave them and go off on his own. Yet, he doesn't even learn from this life crippling blunder at all because not long after the eclipse he ups and leaves Casca to go on his quest for vengeance. And then again 2 years later in v17c09p191 when casca is lost he realizes that he has made the same mistake and again hasn't realized it until it is too late.

Wow, did Griffith personally confide this in you?

Yes! He whispered it along with other sweet nothings into my ear while holding me tight to his manly sweaty throbbing body after a passionate night of lovemaking. When I woke up that magical night all seemed to have been naught but a beautiful hazy vision of a dreamy ecstasy, and I would have believed it to be too if it was not for that roll of twenties he had left on the nightstand before leaving. Ah, the memories....

Just because he hasn't said what he wishes to do after becoming king, doesn't mean that's all there is to it. Actually, the way he spoke of it, it seemed he originally did have some things he wanted to change. Of course, I can't say that for sure. It's possible that he does just want to be king. However, until we really find out, we won't know. So let's not speak so definitely about it.

But seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that Griffith was just aiming to be king for the sake of being a king. Not to use his powers to do any good or change anything for the better. I challenge anyone to find just even one quote where he says otherwise. In the mean while entertain yourself with the following passages I have found that I think do a pretty good job of dissecting Griffiths dream and the kind of person he was.

Lets start with the smallest first as he in v05c02p64 for the first time tells Guts what the Hawks are
all about. He says and I quote "I will take hold of my own country". He doesn't follow that up with a "So we can save all the helpless puppies and kittens. Damn it man! Think of the suffering kittens you monster!"

Why? It could just have been a coincidence or maybe his childhood had been traumatized by a ugly kitten related incident. However, if ever there was good moment to further explain his motives then that was it. Because on the next paged he goes on about how Guts now belongs to him and he is going to decide his place of death. Maybe throwing in a "Let's cure cancer with my l33t king powers" afterwards might have motivated the man to sacrifice his life for the greater good, but he said nothing.

Anyhow, that was a pretty weak argument so I'll move on to a more concrete example. In the "conversation with the princess by the fountain" scene in v06c06p125 Griffith explains why men fight each other to acquire and protect important things and when Charlotte asks about this important thing Griffith says, and I quote "A dream. It's something you do for yourself. Not for others."

Well, I think that makes it pretty clear that Griffiths dream is selfish in nature and he was doing it for himself and not for others. But to put the last nail in that coffin lets take a look at the excellent "Reality of you conscious world" sequence in v12c08&09 where we realize the true nature of Griffith and his dream. I will not quote any specific pages in these two chapters because from reading them it is pretty clear that Griffith since childhood has had a desire to reach the castle and be king. Nowhere is there any mention of him wanting to be king for any reasons that were noble or beneficial to his fellow man. He simply sought after the brightest things in his young eyes. He just wanted to reach the castle, that is all. If there was more to it I think it would have been mentioned there. That was one of the most important scenes explaining the kind of man Griffith is.

Um, excuse me. You need to re-read that section. Gatts had a damn good reason for leaving. He needed to live for himself, and find his own dream. He didn't want to just be Griffith's dog anymore. He killed Adonis for this man, just to hear him spew this crap about how he has no friends, feh. So don't go saying Gatts just up and abandoned everyone for no good reason, when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

This part I have already covered pretty well in the above sections so I won't whip that dead mule any further.... ok maybe just a couple of more whacks just for fun.

There's a big ass difference you n00b. Gatts needed time to find himself. Griffith fucking sacrificed them! You just need to STFU with this big ass post of bullshit. If you don't know the difference between taking a journey to find yourself, and fucking killing people who are supposed to be your friends, then you need to get a reality check buddy. Gatts may have left them, but at least they could go on living. I'm not saying Gatts is a saint, but there's a big freakin difference.

Ok, finally we have come to the last part. I am tired of quickly looking through many volumes of this manga and straining my brain to remember where what happens and what not, so I'll make this quick. I'll start of by saying that any idiot can clearly see that there is a obvious difference between the action of leaving your friends for personal reasons and offering them up on a plate as the midday snack to a bunch of deformed demons for the sake of becoming the king of the said demons. The difference is in fact so clear that I thought people would be able to figure out that it was not the actual actions themselves that I was comparing to each other. If you re-read my post you will see that I said "only slightly different in nature", the key word being [/b]"nature"[/b] here. Actually maybe I should have used the words "in spirit" to make it even more clear, we are talking metaphors here after all.

Let's take a look at that, shall we; the nature of those two different acts. In spirit, Griffith decided to put his personal desires ahead of his friends. In spirit Guts also put his personal desires ahead of his friends. Griffith could not have achieved his goal of becoming king and keeping his friends at the same time and so he chose to stick with what he started with, his dream. Guts felt he couldn't stay with his friends and obtain his desire at the same time, so he gave them up. He says so himself in v09c01p10, and I quote "For the sake of Living an unknown future... Even though I may find something of worth, I've given up the present I had."

That is what I meant and I stay by it and I don't care to make it any more clear than that.
Now as a bonus I will tackle something else that is kind of bothering me, and that is the general demonization (pun) and vilification of Griffith for what he did; that being offering up his friends as a sacrifice for his desires. Starnum, you say that Griffith killed his friends, but he didn't. All he actually did was say the words "I will sacrifice" and the demons did the rest. But still I hear you say that he did never the less result in their ultimate death. And I say, yes, he did. He had been doing that since the very beginning by throwing them into battle after battle on his road to reach his golden castle while the mountain of corpses rose steadily. Thousands of enemies and friends had given up their lives for Griffiths dream and in v12c08 we see him realize that. If he just gave up wouldn't that have made their deaths meaningless? Yes it would, Griffith says so himself in a conversation with Casca in v07c01p22-23 after having done the nasty with the count. Did the Hawks not all join of their own free volition? Were all those who worshipped Griffith like a god not ready to sacrifice themselves for him and his dreams? All Griffith did was to take them up on the offer. But wait again, I hear you say Potato, I on the other hand will say Potato (uses alternate pronunciation).

Try and look at the following pages in which we hear several members of the Hawks say that they knew what they were getting into once they joined up. In v06c06p131, we once again return to the excellent conversation Griffith had with Charlotte by the fountain in which he says, and I quote "They serve me well. We've faced death many times. They are willing to sacrifice their lives for my dreams". Both Casca and Guts hear him say those words and only Guts decides that he doesn't want to be sacrificed at the altar of Griffiths dreams. Casca on the other hand stays behind. In Cascas case we have several other moments in which she makes it clear that she is willing to do anything for Griffith. I have chosen a few like v07c01p27, v09c09p187. Ricket too knew what he was getting into which is made pretty clear in the following pages v12c1p16 where after everyone has realized that Griffith is done for and there is talk about this being the end of the Hawks someone mentions that Casca could lead them but Ricket says, and I quote "We are the Hawks because of Griffith". In v09c08p163 Ricket says that everyone that stayed in the Band of the hawk even after a year of constant pursuit is there because they want to be. Then he once again says, and I quote "Without Griffith there would not be a Band of the Hawk".

Everyone who stayed behind did so out their devotion to their leader, the Hawk. It was a devotion that they were willing to give up their lives for. And giving up their lives for their leader was exactly what they did in the eclipse. Sure they were expecting to die heroically on a battlefield somewhere while serving their glorious crownless king, not being ripped to parts and devoured by a thousand hideous demons. But life has a funny way of not turning out like you imagined it would. There are many more examples, like a few in v08c08 but I won't mention them expect for this last one. In v05c02p65, after Griffith has told Guts what the Band of the Hawk is all about he tells him, and I quote "From now on, you belong to me. Fight on my behalf. I'll be the one who will decide your place of death."

Well, if that doesn't get the point through the Hawk members like a railroad spike through the skull then I don't know what does. He is basically saying that as long as you are a Hawk your life belongs to me to do with as I wish. That is a speech he could have held for many new Hawk members so they had nothing to complain about. They offered their lives to him and he took it. End of story.

Besides, uttering three little words is a lot easier than living the rest of your life as cripple burdened by the weight of your broken dreams.

Ok, that is it, I am out. I would apologize for the length of this response but you asked for it, so....
I like making big-ass posts so if anyone gives me a reason to do so I will not fret, you have been warned.

[EnglishJim]

...Jesus! I always thought I was attentive - not anymore!

I think I need to lie down...

[MrFelony]

lol, long posts aren't hated as long as they're intelligent

[Skullkracker]

gosh, I almost forgot how long the wretched thing is

[MrFelony]

I appreciate the ammount of work he actually put into it, he cited shit. I've always wanted to actually sit down and write an essay on the similarities between guts and griffith and explore my theory that Guts is following the same path as Griffith, just on a different spiral or w/e

[Libaax]

Well of course he wasn't a "good" person, he was always a selfish bastard, and he admits that about himself. That doesn't mean he can't still be a really cool selfish person. He's not my favorite character or anything, but I actually rather like Griffith.

For some reason i never liked him even when he was only a manipulative jerk.


He is a great villain that makes you hate him for all he has done but i have never liked him.


After what he did to the Hawks and Guts let just say i think hell is a too good place for him,he deserves worse

[MonkWren]

Is it bad that I agree with some of what wyrm says?

Is it worse that I actually read the entire damn post?

No. Mainly because beyond that was a guy I used to roleplay with on a play-by-post forum, who would make posts that long in character. Anywho, back on topic....


It's interesting to see how much of the debate on the relationship between Guts and Griffith revolves on events prior to and including the Eclipse. Granted, there is little interaction between the two after that point, but I'd like to try and analyze what happens post-Eclipse for a bit.

I think the most interesting thing that stands out is that despite Guts' hatred for Griffith/Femto, Guts finds it very difficult to actually fight against Griffith. We only have two examples of this, but then again, they are the only points where Guts and Griffith are present together (those two scenes are, of course, the Field of Swords and the Rebirth scenes). In both scenes, Guts remarks on how he almost forgets to attack Griffith. Indeed, something similar can be found when Griffith collaborates with Zodd to defeat the Kushans. While I'm not trying to say that Guts doesn't hate Griffith, I think that their interactions are more complex than straight-forward antagonism. Griffith apparently has no more feelings towards Guts (or any of the other Hawks, both living and dead), as demonstrated by the Field of Swords scene, but I think Guts' emotions are more complex than that. The only scene where Guts truly displays nothing but hatred towards Griffith is at the very beginning of the manga, when he is fighting the Slug Count and is drawn into the mini-Eclipse. Regardless, I don't think the relationship between Guts and Griffith can be seen as one of pure hatred and indifference (from each respective individual).

[Libaax]

Well its a given there was a time Guts had friendly feelings for him even though i am sure Griffith never cared about him as anything but a potential weapon for his road to power.

About Griffith, i think he cared more when Guts left him. Now its hard to know what he feels about Guts. I mean Femto is practicly a god, who prolly thinks humans are bugs or something lower and in a way he knows Guts wont go down easy seeing as how many apostles they have lost to him,so he mind find his crusade for vengance amusing.

Actually now that you reminded me it would be intresting to know what he feels about Guts. Maybe a scene where he mentions him to someone i neo hawks will happen soon.



Guts now has mostly only hatred for him, the hate he shows apostles is nothing compared to what he feels toward Griffith.

I mean after what happened Guts only family in his life (Hawks crew) thanks to Griffith its only natural.

[Istvan]

Well, I actually forced myself to read that entire, huge, annoying post by Wyrm. I've got to say I'm impressed. It's not everyone who can be that insulting after claiming in the very first lines that they weren't going to be insulting towards the person they were replying to. It was also fascinating how much work he put into it. I thought he was totally wrong for a lot of it, but the work was impressive. Moving on though.

I think the most interesting thing that stands out is that despite Guts' hatred for Griffith/Femto, Guts finds it very difficult to actually fight against Griffith. We only have two examples of this, but then again, they are the only points where Guts and Griffith are present together (those two scenes are, of course, the Field of Swords and the Rebirth scenes). In both scenes, Guts remarks on how he almost forgets to attack Griffith. Indeed, something similar can be found when Griffith collaborates with Zodd to defeat the Kushans. While I'm not trying to say that Guts doesn't hate Griffith, I think that their interactions are more complex than straight-forward antagonism. Griffith apparently has no more feelings towards Guts (or any of the other Hawks, both living and dead), as demonstrated by the Field of Swords scene, but I think Guts' emotions are more complex than that. The only scene where Guts truly displays nothing but hatred towards Griffith is at the very beginning of the manga, when he is fighting the Slug Count and is drawn into the mini-Eclipse. Regardless, I don't think the relationship between Guts and Griffith can be seen as one of pure hatred and indifference (from each respective individual).

I don't actually think that his hesitating to attack Griffith in those two cases had anything to do with remaining positive fealings, rather it seemed to me to have more to do with shock. He was totally shocked to see Griffith in both cases (as is to be expected), so it took him a couple seconds to react, after which he reacted as one would expect. The time you mentioned, with the Slug Count helps illustrate this, since in that case he was expecting Griffith, and naturally attacked the instant he saw him. For a very good image of Guts emotions toward Griffith, take a look at the first time Schierke has to save Guts from the Berserker armor. All of the emotions he feels are described there. I suspect that part of the reason he has such trouble controlling the Berserk armor (especially when Apostles are around) is because his emotions towards Apostles and Griffith are so extreme. He has little to combat the extreme rage and hatred with, beyond iron self-control (which is not really Guts strength, he's mostly lived his life just doing whatever he wanted). So I really don't think that one can claim Guts still has positive feelings for Griffith.

Griffith is more complex though. It is clear from the hill of swords that he does still have positive fealings for Guts, although he claims these are the fault of the child he absorbed (this may even be true- it's hard to tell). Also, take a look at his expression as he watches Guts sail off. People may disagree over exactly what his expression shows him feeling, but I think it's clear he feels somthing beyond indiference for Guts.

[MonkWren]

I don't actually think that his hesitating to attack Griffith in those two cases had anything to do with remaining positive fealings, rather it seemed to me to have more to do with shock. He was totally shocked to see Griffith in both cases (as is to be expected), so it took him a couple seconds to react, after which he reacted as one would expect. The time you mentioned, with the Slug Count helps illustrate this, since in that case he was expecting Griffith, and naturally attacked the instant he saw him. For a very good image of Guts emotions toward Griffith, take a look at the first time Schierke has to save Guts from the Berserker armor. All of the emotions he feels are described there. I suspect that part of the reason he has such trouble controlling the Berserk armor (especially when Apostles are around) is because his emotions towards Apostles and Griffith are so extreme. He has little to combat the extreme rage and hatred with, beyond iron self-control (which is not really Guts strength, he's mostly lived his life just doing whatever he wanted). So I really don't think that one can claim Guts still has positive feelings for Griffith.

I think that can be said about the Rebirth scene, but after the Field of Swords, Guts remarks that he almost forgot to attack Griffith. Indeed, the look on Guts' face when he sees Griffith during the Rebirth scene is not entirely shock and awe, but also a certain joy to see his old friend again - although the joy is immediately replaced by hatred (although that may be me misinterpreting the art). Regardless, I think that Guts' himself may not entirely understand his feelings for Griffith. Hatred is definitely there; that I don't deny. However, I think that one must consider the possibility of other emotions as well.

Of course, for the other apostles, Guts feels nothing but hatred (and in the case of Zodd, perhaps respect as well).

[Libaax]

Can you remind me the scene you mean cause i dont remember it by name.


Also i dont think he has feelings of joy toward Griffith just cause he didnt attack him in a instant doesnt mean he forgets everything that happened.


I dont know what Guts felt in the years after the eclipse but now i dont think there are other feelings than hatred. His hate might not be as strong as he before cause it has been many years since the eclipse and he used it as fuel for so long against the apostles.

His hate for apostles shows exactly how he feels about Griffith.



Why would he feel anything but hatred? Anything good atleast?

Dont say cause they were so good friends before.

[everski]

For some reason i never liked him even when he was only a manipulative jerk.

He is a great villain that makes you hate him for all he has done but i have never liked him.

I'm just the opposite. I love Griffith due to the fact that he's prepared to do anything to reach his goals. Not for anyone but himself. It takes a lot of courage and great resolve to be able to cut the ties with everyone around you just to take another step forward.

[Libaax]

So you agree with what he has done to world and the people Guts knew?

[Skullkracker]

I just realized how Griffith is a symbolic figure of the modern man: no denying any wishes, it's getting whatever you want no matter what you have to fuck up to satisfy himself.

Damn, Miura is a genius!

[Sandman]

For some reason i never liked him even when he was only a manipulative jerk.

He is a great villain that makes you hate him for all he has done but i have never liked him.

I'm just the opposite. I love Griffith due to the fact that he's prepared to do anything to reach his goals. Not for anyone but himself. It takes a lot of courage and great resolve to be able to cut the ties with everyone around you just to take another step forward.

You Griffith Lover... I dont see how anyone could "love" Griffith's Character he is so selfish it makes me sick, the thought of casting way all the people you care about or have feeling towards into the pits of hell is inconseivable to me.

[Eldo]

Griffith would be an American.

[Gattsblackfalcon]

OMFG that guy is insane , how could you make a post that big ? , definitely a wyrm .

A guy that loves Griffith ? impossible . I hate him as much Gatts do ( or even more )

[Sandman]

Griffith would be an American.

or Australian depending on how you look at it

[Istvan]

think that can be said about the Rebirth scene, but after the Field of Swords, Guts remarks that he almost forgot to attack Griffith. Indeed, the look on Guts' face when he sees Griffith during the Rebirth scene is not entirely shock and awe, but also a certain joy to see his old friend again - although the joy is immediately replaced by hatred (although that may be me misinterpreting the art).

Could you tell me where to find that scene? Cause I can't remember it off hand, so I'd like to see what it says. As for the Rebirth scene, I thought Guts face showed mostly shock (as one would expect) but I didn't see any joy. That could be a matter of interpretation, but even if there was joy I think the argument could easily be made that the joy was just because he now knew it would be possible for him to try to kill Griffith. Before his biggest problem was just getting to Griffith, but now that Griffith's in this world, that problem is greatly lessened.

[Eldo]

Griffith would be an American.

or Australian depending on how you look at it

Yeah. If you look at it blindly.