iller basically rips Intelligent Design apart in a 2 hour long expos é in which he explains the tactics creationists use to get it shoehorned into the American school system.
Ken Miller on "Intelligent Design"
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I once had a huge talk about this in a lecture class and i said "Intelligent Design is Bullshit" then everyone that believed ID started to say how i cant say that, then i said it again. I know its not a valued argument, but then i came up with the best thing ever.
Vaccine Shots.
i asked everyone in the lecture room if they ever gotten one and everyone raised their hand. THEN THE PWNAGE CAME!!! cuz if you ever get a shot then you believe that there is such a thing called evolution. Seriously, how do they vaccines??? do they randomly pop out of nowhere and can cure some sort of virus out of thin air?? or did a genie give them to you?? I think that if you ever have to get a shot you have to sign a paper that says you believe in scientific evolution and if you dont, then you die MUAHAHHA.
Man i fucking owned those bitches in lecture. I ended it with "If you believe in ID, then you are not allowed to have a doctor, use asprin, get any sort of shots, have acces to health insurance, have access to an ER room, use soap, use a shower, drive a car, ride in a plane, use a cellphone, use a computer, and you must believe that HIV and STD's do not exist."
It was a lovely day. I think Family Guy's take on ID was brillant as hell too. I wish i could view the video right now, but later when i have 2 hours of free time i will.
Vaccine Shots.
i asked everyone in the lecture room if they ever gotten one and everyone raised their hand. THEN THE PWNAGE CAME!!! cuz if you ever get a shot then you believe that there is such a thing called evolution. Seriously, how do they vaccines??? do they randomly pop out of nowhere and can cure some sort of virus out of thin air?? or did a genie give them to you?? I think that if you ever have to get a shot you have to sign a paper that says you believe in scientific evolution and if you dont, then you die MUAHAHHA.
Man i fucking owned those bitches in lecture. I ended it with "If you believe in ID, then you are not allowed to have a doctor, use asprin, get any sort of shots, have acces to health insurance, have access to an ER room, use soap, use a shower, drive a car, ride in a plane, use a cellphone, use a computer, and you must believe that HIV and STD's do not exist."
It was a lovely day. I think Family Guy's take on ID was brillant as hell too. I wish i could view the video right now, but later when i have 2 hours of free time i will.
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Skullkracker
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But that doesn't make Creationist theory a science. Because that's exactly what Intelligent Design is. It's Creationism that was the only science in schools so many decades ago, and puts a new fancy scientific name on it and they've now changed their termonology in order to make it seem a more reputable "theory".
Evolution is based on years and millions of dollars of scientific research which has given us advances not only in the understanding of how our world works, but how we can use things found not only in nature but artificially manufactured for our needs.
Creationism is based off a telling of stories that centuries ago were considered law (ten commandments...although in that time period such commandments as adultery mostly only had consequences for women, funny how that worked), and even in todays society quite a few of these are still punishable crimes.
But nevertheless, three-hundred years ago, if you questioned whether god was real, or if Noah had really collected all of those animals, you'd be branded as a heretic, excommunicated, and probably exiled or stoned.
We live in a world now which allows the free expressions of opinions. However we also live in a world where there is seperation of church and state. And when Church is introduced into public schools which get public funding from state and government grants collected from public taxes (which also includes taxes from Muslims, Athiests, Agnostics, Wiccans, multiple others) and teach children Creationism (in the clever guise of a science called Intelligent Design) you're catering to a specific religious demographic.
And when you have instances where Evolution is entirely removed from curriculums for Intelligent Design, there's a serious blurring of what science truly is.
Science isn't what you believe could be true, it's what you can tangibly prove to be as such. Even Evolution is a theory, but it has far more supporting evidence than Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design might be considered an hypothesis, but not one that belongs anywhere in a science class.
Evolution is based on years and millions of dollars of scientific research which has given us advances not only in the understanding of how our world works, but how we can use things found not only in nature but artificially manufactured for our needs.
Creationism is based off a telling of stories that centuries ago were considered law (ten commandments...although in that time period such commandments as adultery mostly only had consequences for women, funny how that worked), and even in todays society quite a few of these are still punishable crimes.
But nevertheless, three-hundred years ago, if you questioned whether god was real, or if Noah had really collected all of those animals, you'd be branded as a heretic, excommunicated, and probably exiled or stoned.
We live in a world now which allows the free expressions of opinions. However we also live in a world where there is seperation of church and state. And when Church is introduced into public schools which get public funding from state and government grants collected from public taxes (which also includes taxes from Muslims, Athiests, Agnostics, Wiccans, multiple others) and teach children Creationism (in the clever guise of a science called Intelligent Design) you're catering to a specific religious demographic.
And when you have instances where Evolution is entirely removed from curriculums for Intelligent Design, there's a serious blurring of what science truly is.
Science isn't what you believe could be true, it's what you can tangibly prove to be as such. Even Evolution is a theory, but it has far more supporting evidence than Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design might be considered an hypothesis, but not one that belongs anywhere in a science class.
Steeples scrape the sky, Praising God.
Everything here exists for God, is sacrificed to God.
For those who have nothing to sacrifice,
It can be a very heartless city indeed.
Everything here exists for God, is sacrificed to God.
For those who have nothing to sacrifice,
It can be a very heartless city indeed.
actually intelligent design doesn't even fit under theory or hypothesis.... in order to qualify that... one must be able to do scaled experiments and either prove or disprove it... there is no proof for or against intelligent design that can be tested against the theory... evolution on the other hand........................
Bow to Golbez
Did you look at it newb?
Aside form the speaker that was brilliant, this actually brought up an idea that I wasn't aware of, and that partially answer one of my question about this whole debate: why do they (creationists, IDers, W/E) insist in having this theory recognize, and why evolution in particular?
A great answer was provided: the fact that if evolution is recognized, then what does that makes us? The junk of evolution, and how do we sustain morals being the junk. Peoples who think like that and are obsessed by that (and I believe there is a lot of them) will do all they can to have it banned, because for some (psychological?) reason evolution attacks their own being and reason to live. And that explain why the creationism theory keep hanging around despite its flaws, and is not ONLY the work of church zealots (like one will make us believe).
Thanks for that vid Psi, it was worth it just for that.
Edit: it could eventually fit as an hypothesis, as those don't necessarily require all the facts required to back up a theory. But even these starting facts are missing here, so yeah...
Aside form the speaker that was brilliant, this actually brought up an idea that I wasn't aware of, and that partially answer one of my question about this whole debate: why do they (creationists, IDers, W/E) insist in having this theory recognize, and why evolution in particular?
A great answer was provided: the fact that if evolution is recognized, then what does that makes us? The junk of evolution, and how do we sustain morals being the junk. Peoples who think like that and are obsessed by that (and I believe there is a lot of them) will do all they can to have it banned, because for some (psychological?) reason evolution attacks their own being and reason to live. And that explain why the creationism theory keep hanging around despite its flaws, and is not ONLY the work of church zealots (like one will make us believe).
Thanks for that vid Psi, it was worth it just for that.
Edit: it could eventually fit as an hypothesis, as those don't necessarily require all the facts required to back up a theory. But even these starting facts are missing here, so yeah...
Nah, I started to watch it, but since it's an hour and 57 minutes I got to about the point where he was hyped about his book before I had to go do soething else.
Steeples scrape the sky, Praising God.
Everything here exists for God, is sacrificed to God.
For those who have nothing to sacrifice,
It can be a very heartless city indeed.
Everything here exists for God, is sacrificed to God.
For those who have nothing to sacrifice,
It can be a very heartless city indeed.
People are funny and egocentric, they like to believe that they are special. It is psychological; as children we believe the world revolves around us. Children have that 'if I cant see it, it doesnt exist' mentality. So people dont like the idea that they are just a product of random events in evolution. They want a reason or purpose for existing.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
To me, it seems just as unbelievable to assume that life randomly spawned by some astronomical one in a billion chance, as it is to say that we were created by some all-powerful supernatural being. We're entitled to our own beliefs. I don't know why people feel they have to prove something. As if the whole world can be swayed to one side. Heh, this'll never happen. Nothing wrong with coming up with interesting theories though, I suppose.
It's actually physically impossible for me to watch the lecture at the moment since my ISP has shaped me to a princely 64kbps till the 22nd.
Here's my two cents anyway. I've always liked toying with the idea that evolution and creationism aren't necessarily incompatible. Not that I consider creationism to be of scientific basis, a theory in the widest sense of the word surely but not scientific theory. I mean other than if you're a stickler for following the book of Revelations, I'm more implying in terms of a god or THE god still having a contribution for all those people who can't stand the shallowness and randomness of life. One of the best outlooks regarding religion I remember comes from David Zindell, who originally considered himself an athiest, before he realised that he could still feel the sense of wonder in the world, and that was what religion was all about, the feeling of interconnectedness rather than some sort of specific faith or credo.
I also always liked the Adam's Hitchhiker's view of the world as a giant computer set out to determine something. If you look at the limit we've reached on silicon chip technology where we're now moving into biometrics, just consider this is life that we're playing about with. The chip can in itself be considered a universe in it's own right, particularly to the characters playing out our wishes within it, and would that to them, make the creators god? The same with the primordial soup from which we supposedly all spawned - isn't life just a series of information strands whether it be biological or otherwise?
Whether the design is cruel or brilliant or compassionate - whatever you like to call life - this doesn't mean it's random. It might seem to be random but I don't think even evolution can be really called random. Evolution happens for a reason (what we're doing now, killing of species, creating abnormalities through pollution/nuclear fall-out/etc, changing the planet can also simply be described as another step in evolution). Fish developed gills so they could breathe, birds have wings so they could fly - it's to give them that genetic edge to survive.
Thoughts?
Here's my two cents anyway. I've always liked toying with the idea that evolution and creationism aren't necessarily incompatible. Not that I consider creationism to be of scientific basis, a theory in the widest sense of the word surely but not scientific theory. I mean other than if you're a stickler for following the book of Revelations, I'm more implying in terms of a god or THE god still having a contribution for all those people who can't stand the shallowness and randomness of life. One of the best outlooks regarding religion I remember comes from David Zindell, who originally considered himself an athiest, before he realised that he could still feel the sense of wonder in the world, and that was what religion was all about, the feeling of interconnectedness rather than some sort of specific faith or credo.
I also always liked the Adam's Hitchhiker's view of the world as a giant computer set out to determine something. If you look at the limit we've reached on silicon chip technology where we're now moving into biometrics, just consider this is life that we're playing about with. The chip can in itself be considered a universe in it's own right, particularly to the characters playing out our wishes within it, and would that to them, make the creators god? The same with the primordial soup from which we supposedly all spawned - isn't life just a series of information strands whether it be biological or otherwise?
Whether the design is cruel or brilliant or compassionate - whatever you like to call life - this doesn't mean it's random. It might seem to be random but I don't think even evolution can be really called random. Evolution happens for a reason (what we're doing now, killing of species, creating abnormalities through pollution/nuclear fall-out/etc, changing the planet can also simply be described as another step in evolution). Fish developed gills so they could breathe, birds have wings so they could fly - it's to give them that genetic edge to survive.
Thoughts?
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42ndEndOfTheWorld
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Oh boy! I just noticed a sign today that says a bunch of guys are coming to my school to talk about Intelligent Design and if I read correctly, they are for it! I think I am going to go and check it out, could be fun. Its not until December 1st though.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
Rip em a new one.Gaiseric wrote:Oh boy! I just noticed a sign today that says a bunch of guys are coming to my school to talk about Intelligent Design and if I read correctly, they are for it! I think I am going to go and check it out, could be fun. Its not until December 1st though.
Intelligent Design insists upon being "considered", perhaps the same can be said of all religions!