I'm probably going to stop buying Berserk after vol. 13.

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Arngrim
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Post by Arngrim »

Femto wrote:
Crono454 wrote:I mean, don't you think it is nice to see Gattsu caring about whether someone other than his own ass again?
But he's always cared about Caska, even when they were not on friendly terms.
Not really, he treated her like a nuisance until their "rivalry" spawned love. He didn't care about her on a massive enough level until his return to the Hawk in their time of need.
Femto wrote: Arngrim: No, no, no.

And you were so close too!

To the fact you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Berserk?
Femto wrote: YES! YOU WIN!
Nice to see we've come to terms!
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Post by Femto »

Arngrim wrote:
Femto wrote:
Crono454 wrote:I mean, don't you think it is nice to see Gattsu caring about whether someone other than his own ass again?
But he's always cared about Caska, even when they were not on friendly terms.
Not really, he treated her like a nuisance until their "rivalry" spawned love. He didn't care about her on a massive enough level until his return to the Hawk in their time of need.
Hey buddy, I wasn't talking to you.
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Post by Arngrim »

MrFelony wrote: I believe that the whole reason for all these tag alongs is just so he can sacrifice them later. so whats the point of getting attached to them :P? Guts needs farnese like Griffith needed guts. im confusing myself on my own crazy theories :lol:
imo you're reading a little too deeply. Griffith stopped Guts because of more than his simple use to him (again, if anything, it's because there was so much more than that, and he was more than a simple warrior asset). Guts tends to be more "appreciative" in the sense he "needs" her help, versus just demanding it and stapling a gtfo sticker when he's done with her.



To Femto: I was mearly pointing out more inaccuracies and faults in a public forum, you know, that's what you do, in a forum. It's not a private discussion.
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Post by MrFelony »

Arngrim wrote:
Buzkashi wrote:Image
Now that's what I'm talking about.
:kekeke:

you missed out on how much griffith loved guts then didnt you?
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Post by Arngrim »

MrFelony wrote:
you missed out on how much griffith loved guts then didnt you?
It's not love per say. And again, that's...kind of what I just said. It was more than simple comradery, but at the same time, he's not gay for Guts XP
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Post by MrFelony »

but you said that guts can appreciate farnese where as griffith only felt a use for guts. in this occasion, guts plays like he doesnt give a shit about whether or not people stay as long as they are more usefull than a hinderance. in this case he sees a use for farnese and goes after her. the only person he is developing a bond with is shierke
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Post by Femto »

Arngrim = Tool of the Year '06

Thanks for being my monkey for the better part of one hour.

I have to go to work now.
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Post by Arngrim »

MrFelony wrote:but you said that guts can appreciate farnese where as griffith only felt a use for guts. in this occasion, guts plays like he doesnt give a shit about whether or not people stay as long as they are more usefull than a hinderance. in this case he sees a use for farnese and goes after her. the only person he is developing a bond with is shierke
Let me correct myself than.

Guts allowed Farnese to tag along as for one (let's not get deep here) he simply had no reason to refuse "help" (as him telling Puck during the night of the fire, "I need all the help I can get"...he even relied on PUCK at one point :P)
Secondly, she took care of Casca. Guts reflects on this during her departure and goes "OH CRAP, SHE USED TO BE HER BABYSITTER!...AND IF SHE'S GONE...oh shi-"

And if you have uncoded Guts at all, you know he just has a hard exterior. He's really sensitive on the inside :P

He reflects on his "true" self (the one that isn't completely embittered) and remembers she does serve a very valuable purpose in the group and goes to fetch her. He wouldn't have forced her to return by swinging his sword.

Griffith...on the other hand...(again, this is where the comparison no longer works) He's developing a bond with -everyone- in the group. That's the whole point now, remember? "I never thought...I'd ...." (think back :P)



Edit: Whatever Femto, whatever helps to stroke your Internet-Ego at night to make you sleep better, you can do it on your own time.
By the way, your intelligence was showing in fine valor tonight.
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Post by MrFelony »

i dont really feel like saying a whole lot, but ya i was bein ignant bout the guts not forming attachments. that and he may be forming different kinds of bonds that griffith did, but ultimately i just see guts now as a mirror of griffith back in the day
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Post by Arngrim »

MrFelony wrote:i dont really feel like saying a whole lot, but ya i was bein ignant bout the guts not forming attachments. that and he may be forming different kinds of bonds that griffith did, but ultimately i just see guts now as a mirror of griffith back in the day
Oh I'm not saying it's a "completely wrong" analogy, it's not. You're accurate on -some- aspects. there are definite "bad' similiarities (IE Guts being a man obsessed with one mindset, much as Griffith being focused on his dream) But I don't think their useage of people is at all the same. Guts is constantly seen debating the moral choices he makes within himself (IE with the beast "NO, I wouldn't think like that!?...") Whereas Griffith eventually excepts he feels no sorrow at all in his actions (This was a troubling factor for him in most of the Golden arc)

It should be noted this is why Griffith fled the Hill of Swords. He wasn't being cool, the fact Guts+Casca's child made him "feel" was a new (BAD) sensation for him. As he told Guts "I don't feel anything" therefore, to actually feel -something- almost frightened him.
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Post by fiverings »

guys im new on the forums and all but ive been dling e.g's scans for about a year now and having studied heavily in fiction i think that Arngrim is on the fucking ball in this argument. thats all. 279 was sexy. evil~genius's dedication to berserk is like christmas every month^_^ xoxo
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Post by MrFelony »

Arngrim wrote:Oh I'm not saying it's a "completely wrong" analogy, it's not. You're accurate on -some- aspects. there are definite "bad' similiarities (IE Guts being a man obsessed with one mindset, much as Griffith being focused on his dream) But I don't think their useage of people is at all the same. Guts is constantly seen debating the moral choices he makes within himself (IE with the beast "NO, I wouldn't think like that!?...") Whereas Griffith eventually excepts he feels no sorrow at all in his actions (This was a troubling factor for him in most of the Golden arc)

It should be noted this is why Griffith fled the Hill of Swords. He wasn't being cool, the fact Guts+Casca's child made him "feel" was a new (BAD) sensation for him. As he told Guts "I don't feel anything" therefore, to actually feel -something- almost frightened him.
i was only admitting to be purposefully -ignant-. guts was just as goal driven as griffith was when he was pursuing griffith after the eclipse. now he has softened up i guess. but honestly, you can't say griffith wasnt just as soft. you've seen him congregating and interacting with the hawks no? he was a lot friendlier than guts was. I dont think he accepts it as much as he convinces himself he doesnt feel. but even up to whatshisnames assassination he is still asking guts if he is a bad man.
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Post by Albator »

If Arngrim is not the Phoenix reborn, he's at least a sibling.
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Post by Arngrim »

MrFelony wrote: i was only admitting to be purposefully -ignant-. guts was just as goal driven as griffith was when he was pursuing griffith after the eclipse. now he has softened up i guess. but honestly, you can't say griffith wasnt just as soft. you've seen him congregating and interacting with the hawks no? he was a lot friendlier than guts was. I dont think he accepts it as much as he convinces himself he doesnt feel. but even up to whatshisnames assassination he is still asking guts if he is a bad man.
Actually, it's not one and the same. Guts' goals were -very- undefined. He questioned himself numerous times as to what exactly he was chasing, and later admits he was just in such a frenzy and "obsessed" with just the sole idea of revenge. He nearly kills Jill and her friend because of this obsession, and brutally slaughters the count in front of his own daughter. Yet as shown, it's not that he felt no remorse. The problem with Griffith is that he didn't feel any. That's why he constantly asked for everyone else's opinion about him, he desperately wanted to believe (Deep down) he wasn't pursuing a goal with reckless abandon for others.


Whether it be "God" or causiality dictating as to why he can't (given that his entire creation was influenced by this) Griffith is still very indifferent. Again, Griffith was actually a "Good" person prior to the Eclipse. Yet after, he was given such "access" to his darkest mindset (again, accepting he cares for nothing but his dream) and immediately seeks revenge on Guts for being the only thing to make him lose sight of it.


Guts again, is actually sensitive when compared to Griffith. He really does care and tries to do "the right thing" deep down, but has that exterior cold badass to keep him alive.

fiverings, indeed!


Edit: Albator, have no idea who the hell that is, most likely from you intervening and stating "reborn" would implement the previous was slaughtered/killed off/gone, so it may or may not be a compliment. I'll take it anyways and say consider my existence Omega if it works for you.
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Post by Albator »

What happen? Lock, unlock thread? Starnum is going Beseks!!!

I'm glad it's unlocked though.

Just to clarify my stance (I realize I've only spamed this thread so far): I'm on Femto's side on this one, not as radical because I'll keep buying the books. There is for sure more annoying/useless characters in the new one. They were useless up to the beach though, some are starting to earn their keep. I, for one, found the Zodd-Guts bit awful and ridiculous looking.

The interest generated by Berserk is still far greater than others mangas, so I'll keep getting it anyways. The gap is just not as huge as it used to be.
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Post by Femto »

Look at it this way.

If you completely remove the fight between Guts and Serpico, not a single thing in the storyline changes. If you remove the fight with the Troll nothing changes, if you remove the fight with that giant thing from volume 30 nothing changes, if you remove the water creature nothing changes, and so on and so forth.

In that sense, most of the stuff that has happened or is happening is expendable and doesn't advance or help the storyline at all.

There are degrees of course but if you removed, say, either of the first two figths between Guts and Griffith, or the fight against Zodd (arguably), or the fight against the 100 men, the story suddenly falls apart because the fights actually served a purpose, as opposed to just being a showcase for the Berserk Armor or how strong Guts is.

Of course, we have idiots like Arngrim that worry about the little details and are incapable of looking at the big picture but hey, you guys should keep trying!

PS: I asked Starnum to unlock the thread.

I felt it was locked out of a personal bias against it.
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Post by Deathbringer »

I felt it was locked out of a personal bias against it.
It´s good to know that you care.
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Post by Istvan »

Look at it this way.

If you completely remove the fight between Guts and Serpico, not a single thing in the storyline changes. If you remove the fight with the Troll nothing changes, if you remove the fight with that giant thing from volume 30 nothing changes, if you remove the water creature nothing changes, and so on and so forth.

In that sense, most of the stuff that has happened or is happening is expendable and doesn't advance or help the storyline at all.

There are degrees of course but if you removed, say, either of the first two figths between Guts and Griffith, or the fight against Zodd (arguably), or the fight against the 100 men, the story suddenly falls apart because the fights actually served a purpose, as opposed to just being a showcase for the Berserk Armor or how strong Guts is.

Of course, we have idiots like Arngrim that worry about the little details and are incapable of looking at the big picture but hey, you guys should keep trying!

PS: I asked Starnum to unlock the thread.

I felt it was locked out of a personal bias against it.
I could make a really long, detailed post about just how wrong you are, but you never read them anyway, so why bother? Anyway, I'll try to keep this brief, so maybe you can even follow it. First, there would be an effect on the story if any of those fights were removed. To take one example, if you remove the Guts vs. Serpico fight, you loose Serpico finally coming to terms with the fact that Guts will put Farnese in danger, his jealosy over Guts having a greater influence on her then he does, and his fear that Guts will one day kill her.

If you look back to the golden age, it's nice how you highlight all of the most important fights for your comparison. How much would change if we removed, for example, the battle to take the castle Adon was guarding (not Dourderay, the little castle where they snuck across the river), or one of the other battles whose purpose was to build up the characters? Answer: not much by itself, but collectively those battles served to create, define, and develope our characters, and these battles are doing exactly the same thing. And any number of those battles seemed designed to "show how strong Guts is".

P.S. the fact that you don't even read all the arguments showing why you're wrong, really makes it seem as if you can't even defend your own position very well, and are basically just in a funk over having to wait so long for each chapter.
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Post by Albator »

Istvan wrote:
P.S. the fact that you don't even read all the arguments showing why you're wrong, really makes it seem as if you can't even defend your own position very well, and are basically just in a funk over having to wait so long for each chapter.
He wouldn't feel like this if some people weren't so attracted by the reply button.

Don't you feel powerful when you hit that thing?

I do.

PS: +1 in locking that thread, as it is not going anywhere.
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Arngrim
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Post by Arngrim »

Albator wrote:
Istvan wrote:
P.S. the fact that you don't even read all the arguments showing why you're wrong, really makes it seem as if you can't even defend your own position very well, and are basically just in a funk over having to wait so long for each chapter.
He wouldn't feel like this if some people weren't so attracted by the reply button.

Don't you feel powerful when you hit that thing?

I do.

PS: +1 in locking that thread, as it is not going anywhere.
We hit quotes more than replies, and you know it. And yes, sad to see the key was found.
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Post by Albator »

That's it, the useless level as raised one notch.

Locked.
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