Honourable Apostles

Post by **Skullkracker** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:39 am

Istvan wrote:
Nope, the egg apostle sacrificed himself, if I recall. I don't think he was able to sacrifice the piles of dead bodies he was buried in.
I'm pretty sure that the egg apostle sacrificed "the world". And he changed his body into something that could give birth to the "new world", hence all of the wierd stuff that's been happening since Griffith's resurection.

well that is a good wish gone bad

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:31 pm

The Behelit apostle made two sacrifices. First he sacrificed himself, and hence became an apostle. However, after that he was living on borrowed time. All of the events that took place at Albion and the pseudo-eclipse seemed to be a special set of events. Then he sacrificed all the people at Albion, hence why they were all killed, so that the world would be changed, as Istvan was referring too. One of the major changes being the rebirth of Griffith, of course. This is how I interrupted what happened anyway.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:23 pm

I'm wondering. Why exactly did the Beherit apostle sacrifice himself? What did he stand to gain? He wouldn't have been alive for his perfect world.

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:16 pm

I believe he sacrificed his world to become the child on the beach or something along those lines... remember when the slug apostle had the choice to sacrifice something else that was dear to him to continue to live....either way i'd have to reread chapters i don't have to substantiate my wild theory.

Post by **Istvan** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:12 pm

I'm not sure that he wanted to be alive for the new world. If I recall correctly, his wish for his new form was to become the egg that would give birth to the new world. So he knew from the very beginning that he wouldn't be seeing it.

Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:08 am

I believe he sacrificed his world to become the child on the beach or something along those lines... remember when the slug apostle had the choice to sacrifice something else that was dear to him to continue to live....either way i'd have to reread chapters i don't have to substantiate my wild theory.

Wait, what?

I'm not sure that he wanted to be alive for the new world. If I recall correctly, his wish for his new form was to become the egg that would give birth to the new world. So he knew from the very beginning that he wouldn't be seeing it.

And I agree. But what did he get from it? Nothing. Did he know this? Yes. He sacrificed himself for the world. Sounds ooc for an uber-evil apostle, if you ask me.

Post by **Deathbringer** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:39 am

And I agree. But what did he get from it? Nothing. Did he know this? Yes. He sacrificed himself for the world. Sounds ooc for an uber-evil apostle, if you ask me.

He wasn´t that evil to begin with.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

And I agree. But what did he get from it? Nothing. Did he know this? Yes. He sacrificed himself for the world. Sounds ooc for an uber-evil apostle, if you ask me.

Asking what someone got out of it is always a very loaded question. He got the world changed, which is what he wanted. He didn't sacrifice himself for the world, or anything, because the world wasn't in danger. He desided that he didn't like the world, and wanted it to be different, and sacrificed himself to change it, which is a very different thing. I think that ultimately, he wanted his life and death to have meaning, so that is what he acheived. So to say that he got nothing would be inacurate. His desires were just very, very different from those of most people. But he still killed a whole city (and all of the people who've died since from things like the trolls) to achieve those desires. Was he evil? I'd say so. He didn't care who or how many died, as long as he achieved his wish. Isn't that more or less what evil is?

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:24 am

the egg guy also got some queer powers
it is still not clear to me why he always interfered and gave people powers (the bed guys that ismaybe it was also one of his powers to imitate an eclipse, since the God Hand didn't really show up

Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:04 pm

Asking what someone got out of it is always a very loaded question. He got the world changed, which is what he wanted. He didn't sacrifice himself for the world, or anything, because the world wasn't in danger. He desided that he didn't like the world, and wanted it to be different, and sacrificed himself to change it, which is a very different thing. I think that ultimately, he wanted his life and death to have meaning, so that is what he acheived. So to say that he got nothing would be inacurate. His desires were just very, very different from those of most people. But he still killed a whole city (and all of the people who've died since from things like the trolls) to achieve those desires. Was he evil? I'd say so. He didn't care who or how many died, as long as he achieved his wish. Isn't that more or less what evil is?

True. Sounds to me like he wanted a reason to die. Cowardly, to be sure. But that's what all apostles are in the end, hm?

Post by **Khelegond** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:43 pm

Just a little comment on apostle's strenght...Wyld was a feeble old man. And yet he was gigantic, evil, twisted, strong...it might be something a bit more psychologic than their own strenght...

Post by **Jon Maitreya** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:46 pm

I wouldn't call it cowardly. he was a man who had nothing - had never had anything. he saw that the world was evil and full of hate and wanted to create a 'perfect' world. For someone who was nothing, he wanted his death - his existence - to have a purpose. Isn't that what everyone wants? No-one wants to die a nobody, everyone wants to leave something behind.

The Behelit Apostle sacrificed the world he saw as ugly (symbolised by the Brand appearaing actually *on* the planet in the form of the flaming camp), in order to create a world with the one thing that everyone wanted - the one thing the world was lacking - a God, a Messiah-God who would free them.

My thoughts are probably somewhat difficult to follow, but I've always seen his actions as the opposite of cowardice. As I interpret it, he wanted to give everyone a better world. Trouble is, as an Apostle, he is inherently evil.

I really hope I'm making sense here...

Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:55 pm

He is evil, yet kind? This answers the question, then? Apostles can, and have been, honourable without ulterior motives?

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:58 pm

Hahaha **looks at thread title**

**French accent** Honourable
**American Andy Dick** I'm sorry what was that?
Honourable!
I'm sorry, honogagable?
Honourable!!!
Honourabble?!? I'm still not catching it...

LMAO......

Sorry, watched that movie last night and couldn't resist ^_^

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:58 pm

Jon Maitreya: yes, that made sense to me

it is the only apostle whose intention were "good"

Post by **Lord Rae** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:55 pm

I always kind of looked at the behilt as something of a monkies paw...it would give you your wish but there was always a catch.... most of the times the catch being you lose rational human thought and all perspective of being human. Some apostles seem to keep some of this around.... and those are the exceptions... maybe they knew going in that this wasn't a free ride and that it would come with a cost...

The apostles who seem to feast on flesh and destroy everything and everyone they see on a whim seem to be the weaker and weak minded of the apostle crowds...

I suppose when you compare them to the "honor" of some of the more powerful apostles it just stands out more as being that they have something good...even if they happen to be 99% evil.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:29 pm

it is the only apostle whose intention were "good"

Could be. But there is a very old saying about how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Regardless, he still didn't care how many people had to die to bring about this "better" world.

Personally, I view the "honor" that some of the Apostles seem to demonstrate as being more along the lines of habit then anything else. They act that way because it's the way their used to acting, not because they have any real conviction about it anymore. And that's also why, when the situation calls for it they cast it aside without any real problem.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:44 am

out of topic , that child in Vritanis beach who is it ? , is that the son of Gatts ( if i remember well Caska son were used for Griffiths rebirth ) i want to know your thoughts about this .

Post by **psi29a** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:47 am

Gattsblackfalcon wrote:out of topic , that child in Vritanis beach who is it ? , is that the son of Gatts ( if i remember well Caska son were used for Griffiths rebirth ) i want to know your thoughts about this .

Already discussed and is summed up nicely in the FAQ.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:50 am

sorry didn't know lol, well now i'm gonna check it .

Post by **Phoenix** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:40 am

Personally, I view the "honor" that some of the Apostles seem to demonstrate as being more along the lines of habit then anything else. They act that way because it's the way their used to acting, not because they have any real conviction about it anymore. And that's also why, when the situation calls for it they cast it aside without any real problem.

Of course, it's who they were. We've seen other apostles (the Count and Roshinu) hold on to what was left of their human life. In life, an honor was everything to a knight. It makes sense it's how they live now.

Post by **Istvan** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:53 pm

But my point was that it isn't real honor any more. They're just going through the motions, as it were, out of habit. They don't really believe in it anymore, and so can (unlike a "real" knight or such) discard it when convienent without any qualms.

Post by **Phoenix** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:34 pm

Then why don't they? If the honor's fake, a part of their former lives, why not discard it altogether?

Post by **Khelegond** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:30 pm

Why do they retain their old "humanoid" forms? Why don't they walk like the freaking demons they are? Why some of them resemble humans more than others?

I think is a clinging sense of humanity - to some of them, at least. The behelit apostle was somewhat evil. It doesn't matter that you want a better world, you can't simply kill EVERYONE to do that. And he hated some of the townsfolk...so it was somewhat vengeance too.

Zodd, Grunbeld, Locus (sp?), and so...they're honorable somewhat. Why? Well, you don't simply become a demon and forgot your past - is still your soul inside the body. That's the reason why the count couldn't sacrifice his daughter, or why Roshinu (was that her name?) didn't kill Jill...Zodd had a code of honor while human, and retained it. I think thats a pretty valid assumption...

Oh, and let's be clear - assumption!

Post by **ThunderLudi** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:58 pm

what about the Leader of Black Dog Army? What was his name?