Berserk Chapter: 278

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:56 pm

I thought him being tough was clear.

I mean the first time we saw him, he was sleeping with a female apostle just to kill her

Also against the count, he took a lot beating just to get his chance.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:32 am

one of Gatts techniques is let the enemy feels like he is winning ( just because he is hitting hard Gatts's body ) and then he makes the full sword swing or uses the left hand cannon to win , but i think that Gatts let Griffiths behind right after he enter the Hawkes.

Post by **MrFelony** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:56 am

I dont think he lets them beat his body up to just let them get cocky, he gets beaten up because the average apostle is much fuckin stronger than he is (when not using the armor) so he has to take a hard beating until he finds the opening

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:46 am

true , but i dunno that armor its sucking Gatts sanity.

Post by **|||||||** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:09 am

What is the point of thinking about loosing when it comes to a duel? neither guts nor griffith did. They were both calm and chose their strategies. The better won! It might seem stupid but it comes down to that.

of course griffith wouldn't use a sword like guts, or vice versa. That's not the point. Both used what they could use and there is nothing more to it.

serpico and griffith indeed share the same mindset when it comes to fighting and tactics, but their goals are different. serpico so far wasn't much of a leader and I don't expect him to be. Guts was always a great leader, but didn't bother to devise the strategy, but was more concerned about staying alive. everyone breaking through enemy forces, pulling his troops through is a great leader. everyone thinking is and depite his looks guts is thinking quite much about getting better. he always did.

besides guts became a monster during his days as raiders leader. he was one of the main tools, to the victory in the 100 year war and he was in the hand of griffith. it's not like one can say griffith won the war, or guts did. It was the success of the hawks working effectively as an army. griffith perhaps could have won all without guts, but it's unlikely that he could that elegantly. This helped griffith in his political scheme, too. guts was an especially sharp blade and griffith used it....

thats my two bits of thought

Post by **Sortep** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:11 pm

finally a good point made in recent times by barcode man

Post by **Istvan** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:14 pm

I dont think he lets them beat his body up to just let them get cocky, he gets beaten up because the average apostle is much fuckin stronger than he is (when not using the armor) so he has to take a hard beating until he finds the opening

I wouldn't say that the average Apostle is. I think that most of the Apostle's that we see him struggling with are somewhat above average, it's just that we don't see most of the ones he doesn't struggle with. It's always been implyed that Guts was killing more Apostles then we saw, but the author didn't generally bother to show the ones that he didn't have to struggle much to kill, except where plot relevent. But if you look, there are a few places where Guts takes out Apostles without much trouble at all, and if we look at the Eclipse, it is clear that he can take out quite a few "normal" Apostles fairly quickly, and all by himself (I'll admit his motivation was even higher then normal then, but still).

Post by **Libaax** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:34 pm

MrFelony wrote:I dont think he lets them beat his body up to just let them get cocky, he gets beaten up because the average apostle is much fuckin stronger than he is (when not using the armor) so he has to take a hard beating until he finds the opening

Specially at the start when he wasnt as strong as he is now or as good at killing apostles.

He took a lot of beating cause of the huge diffrence in strenght.

Now he gets hurt alot cause of the armour making him go Berserke all the time.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:36 pm

Gatts can kill easily the normal apostles but apostles like Zodd and the Lance guy (i forgot his name something like Lotus ) would be hard to take down , still Gatts can do it if he had the right motivation.

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:47 am

Quick question for you guys while you are on the topic of apostles. I think I heard a while back (either in the manga or here on the boards) that there are different types of apostles ranging from disciples, to apostles, to god hands. Am I right about there being disciples which would be the lower form of apostles or are the voices just telling me things? Thanks for the help. ^_^

Post by **Starnum** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:56 am

Well, I haven't heard that term used in Berserk. However, there are clearly apostles that are weaker than the main ones, like Zodd and Locus. I refer to these nameless apostles as lesser-apostles, for now anyway.

Post by **Dagda Mor** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:49 am

I would say that at this point, if he were wearing mundane armor and was in full health, Guts could kill a typical apostle with little or no injury. They're about as difficult for him as human foes were right before he first joined the band of the hawk, IMO. As for "disciples". . .several apostles deputized other humans, making them into demons as well. The biggest example of this is Roshinu, but there was also the Count converting that one knight in the first story arc and the fake behelit-apostle converting Mozgus & co. No behelits were involved in the transformations (okay, the last example is debatable, but I think you get my point.)

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:52 pm

I don't know, the Snail Count looked like your typical, average, and quite young, apostle, and he almost killed Gutts.

Post by **Libaax** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:38 pm

I agree with Dagda Mor. Not many apostles would be trouble for a healthy Guts. Other than the highest ranked apostles as Zodd, the one he fought in Flora's place etc

About the count, Guts wasnt near as good or as strong as he is now.

He woulndt break a sweat fighting the Count if he fought him now.

This makes me wonder, when Guts will see that the armour hurts him more than apostles does these days.

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:30 pm

Armor hurts him only if he lets it. At least if he lets it take him over. I don't know if it still sticks him with all the reinforcement on his broken bones while its not "activated" but grunbeld (sp) beat the living shit out of him without the armor and that was only a couple of volumes ago. I don't think he has gotten too much stronger since then as he's only been in one big fight since. But, then again, instead of debating pointless things that I can't control I should just read back through the manga or do something else before the next chapter. ^_^ Not like any of you guys are Muira anyways and can answer my questions....HAHAHAHHAHAHA that's right...I went there....

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 pm

Armor hurts him only if he lets it. At least if he lets it take him over. I don't know if it still sticks him with all the reinforcement on his broken bones while its not "activated" but grunbeld (sp) beat the living shit out of him without the armor and that was only a couple of volumes ago. I don't think he has gotten too much stronger since then as he's only been in one big fight since. But, then again, instead of debating pointless things that I can't control I should just read back through the manga or do something else before the next chapter. ^_^ Not like any of you guys are Muira anyways and can answer my questions....HAHAHAHHAHAHA that's right...I went there....

Yeah, but the Grunbeld fight isn't really a good measure of Guts strength, beacuse during that fight Guts was still suffering from the damage caused by Slann, he wasn't nearly up to his usual standards. Added to this was that he didn't have any armor at all on, which is a fairly big disadvantage all by itself. Even Grunbeld commented that Guts wasn't nearly as strong as he'd expected. So a better measure of the growth of his strength would be when he fought Zodd on the hill of swords, where he actually had a slight advantage while Zodd was in human form. If you compare that to the first time he fought Zodd, that's a huge improvement.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:06 am

Yeah, and he's only gotten better since the battle on the Hill of Swords.

Post by **Lord Rae** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:24 am

Didn't someone mention (slann maybe at the eclipse?) That "the greater the sacrifice the greater the power?"

Or maybe it was vice versa... the greater the power needed the greater the sacrifice...

Maybe some apostles don't have the same ambitions. And also don't count out the "idea"... maybe some apostles are weaker than others to help guide things to whatever it is its guiding Grifith towards.

Post by **MrFelony** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:59 am

the count sacrificed one person, griffith atleast 100...not really sure how many were left. and the loyalty of the people probably helps

Post by **Skullkracker** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:41 am

I don't think there is a real connection between the power granted and the sacrafice
apostles just turn out to be different, like thos people were also different

it may still matter, what they need the power for

for example the egg apostle turned out to be...well...grotesque easter egg, but still had the power to do what he wanted
and he sacraficed everyone and everything around him

Griffith was already chosen, he had the crimson behelit and stuff
besides, he only had the hawks left

about slug boy, he only sacraficed his wife, and later had the opportunity to trade his daughter for his life
come to think of it, I don't even know what he wanted
he was in a crisis, and wanted out of it
if we look at it that way, he found a new hobby in his new form: cannibalism

well, this post doesn't make much sense, does it?

Post by **SONGSAN** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:59 pm

Left home Aug 12 for a little trip to Tasmania, came back tonight and found this waiting. My trip hasn't end yet I guess. Won't read any comment til the chapter was dled but need to say thanks to all EG team first. Great job again mate!

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm

I can't imagine anyone going to Tasmania. For vacation purposes.

Post by **Istvan** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:30 pm

about slug boy, he only sacraficed his wife, and later had the opportunity to trade his daughter for his life
come to think of it, I don't even know what he wanted
he was in a crisis, and wanted out of it
if we look at it that way, he found a new hobby in his new form: cannibalism

Well, as near as I can tell, his dream was to go around crushing paganists and then returning home to his loving and devoted familty. This dream was, of course, shattered when he discovered that his wife was a paganist. The God's Hand gave him the ability to continue crushing "pagans" and have a loving family, though only his daughter, and he locked her up in her room. The second time all he wanted was to save his own life.

Post by **Phoenix** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:48 pm

It's ironic. You're supposed to be cut off from your humanity once you become an apostle. Both the Snail Count and Roshinu still had ties they cared about in the human world. I suppose Griffith too, but he apparently didn't let it bother him much.

Post by **Dagda Mor** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:39 am

If the greater the sacrifice, the greater the power. . .is someone considered "sacrificed" once they're branded, or once they're dehd? Is Griffith's power diminished because Guts (and Caska) are still alive?