The form of Ganishka

Post by **Phoenix** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:33 am

Semantics are actually quite important. If you want people to understand what you're saying (without having to use 80+ posts to clarify your meaning) then you should use the word that actually means what you're trying to convey, not some other word that implies a completely different concept.

Of course, you're right. It's hard enough getting people to concentrate on the idea, rather than the words.

I doubt it. You're already streatching it with a "ceasfire", although that is within the realm of possibility. If you go to "cooperate", as in "work together for a common goal" as opposed to "just not fight each other right now since I have more important things to be doing" then you run into the problem that Guts would never, (and should never) trust any Apostle enough to work together with them on something, and especially if that something was as important as Caska's life. He wouldn't work with them because, if for no other reason, he'd be convinced that by doing so he'd put Caska at greater risk. This is even more true for Femto. And while maybe you could dream up some scenario where this wouldn't apply, it would be on the order of "what if the sky turned green tomorrow?" Maybe theoretically possible, but so unlikely as to make any discussion/speculation on it totally worthless.

Technically, the sky can't turn green because of the light, the water droplets, and the differences of wavelength between blue and green, making it a violation of the laws of physics.... you know, if anything, the sky would be purple, but our eye isn't that receptive to that color.

You think of course that Gutts would be unwilling to trust any apostle with Caska's life, even if that which is lost by not doing so is Caska's life itself.

Post by **psi29a** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:58 pm

I think the thrust of the situtation is that I (and I dare say others) think you are wrong. That is ok however, because that is the point is to discuss and punch holes in each other's hypothesis because that is peer review and shouldn't be taken personally.

Debate rocks!

We have discussed it in the past and the conclusion is the same as it is now that Guts would rather kill _any_ apostle than to 'ally' or 'ceasefire'.

What-ifs and vs. threads are frowned upon, however if you have facts to back them up then more people would be willing to jump into the conversation and make the entire thing exciting.

So far we have seen you put forth something that interests you which is very cool. We need more facts that would persuade us to your way of thinking though.

When people whip out the dictionary it is because the usage of the word such as 'ally' is used in an awkward way that runs counter to experience. Not to say that your word usage is incorrect, it just isn't something we are used to when talking about Guts and Apostles.

I'll concede that it is possible that Guts ally himself with either side, because I can't predict the future, as that is left up to Miura. Considering past experience I would consider it highly unlikely. If you are correct however, I will recant, and you will get your moment of glory.

Post by **Phoenix** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:38 pm

I think the thrust of the situtation is that I (and I dare say others) think you are wrong. That is ok however, because that is the point is to discuss and punch holes in each other's hypothesis because that is peer review and shouldn't be taken personally.

Only Mune could understand the great joy I take in this.

Debate rocks!

Doesn't it, though?

We have discussed it in the past and the conclusion is the same as it is now that Guts would rather kill _any_ apostle than to 'ally' or 'ceasefire'.

Yes he would, but, as he is right now, does Gutts recognize his own limits? If something is impossible, would he admit it and look for another solution? By wanting to kill all the apostles when it looks impossible, even when Caska's life is in danger, he's putting his pride above Caska, don't you think so?

So far we have seen you put forth something that interests you which is very cool. We need more facts that would persuade us to your way of thinking though.

To what? Gutts' personality? The change? My favorite is when he dramatically and explicitely said "I understand. I won't be reckless". Granted, he was talking about the armor, but it did show us Gatts understands now that his apostle hate can't threaten his life or the lives of his friends.

When people whip out the dictionary it is because the usage of the word such as 'ally' is used in an awkward way that runs counter to experience. Not to say that your word usage is incorrect, it just isn't something we are used to when talking about Guts and Apostles.

And I apologize. I concede that perhaps it was the wrong word, I just didn't think it would matter.

I'll concede that it is possible that Guts ally himself with either side, because I can't predict the future, as that is left up to Miura. Considering past experience I would consider it highly unlikely. If you are correct however, I will recant, and you will get your moment of glory. Very Happy

I believe it's very plausible for Gutts to cooperate (and by this, I mean attacking a common foe during the time the fight is happening) if the situation demanded it. Why not? Gutts has grown up. He knows there are more important things than himself, now.

Post by **Istvan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:25 am

Technically, the sky can't turn green because of the light, the water droplets, and the differences of wavelength between blue and green, making it a violation of the laws of physics.... you know, if anything, the sky would be purple, but our eye isn't that receptive to that color.

It is, in fact, possible, it would just require such major atmospheric changes and low order probabilities as to be functionally impossible, which was my point in the first place.

You think of course that Gutts would be unwilling to trust any apostle with Caska's life, even if that which is lost by not doing so is Caska's life itself.

I believe it's very plausible for Gutts to cooperate (and by this, I mean attacking a common foe during the time the fight is happening) if the situation demanded it. Why not? Gutts has grown up. He knows there are more important things than himself, now.

I don't think that Guts would acknowledge that any Apostle (and especially Griffith) could ever be anything other then a threat to Caska, no matter what they say/do to try to convince him otherwise. And thus I don't think he'd believe there was any chance of saving Caska by cooperating. If anything, he'd be convinced that the chance of saving her would be smaller rather then greater. Thus he'd feel it was better trying to save her by himself (or rather with only his non-Apostle allies helping). After all, there's no way to know that it is impossible to save someone until afterwards, especially for someone like Guts who's entire life is practically a defiance of the odds. How could he ever know that saving Caska was impossible without the aid of an Apostle? And without that knowledge, how could he even consider letting one of them "help" since that would seem to only make the situation worse.

Post by **Phoenix** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:48 am

It is, in fact, possible, it would just require such major atmospheric changes and low order probabilities as to be functionally impossible, which was my point in the first place.

Bah, mere technicalities

I don't think that Guts would acknowledge that any Apostle (and especially Griffith) could ever be anything other then a threat to Caska, no matter what they say/do to try to convince him otherwise. And thus I don't think he'd believe there was any chance of saving Caska by cooperating. If anything, he'd be convinced that the chance of saving her would be smaller rather then greater. Thus he'd feel it was better trying to save her by himself (or rather with only his non-Apostle allies helping). After all, there's no way to know that it is impossible to save someone until afterwards, especially for someone like Guts who's entire life is practically a defiance of the odds. How could he ever know that saving Caska was impossible without the aid of an Apostle? And without that knowledge, how could he even consider letting one of them "help" since that would seem to only make the situation worse.

No, I definitely understand your point, but there are things Gatts group is physically incapable of doing, like flying (except Serpico, but he can't carry the group). Assume for some reason Zodd needs to get up too, or just wants to help Gatts for Fate's designs, or his own amusement. Would Gatts accept a ride on Zodd's back?

Post by **Eldo** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:07 am

Istvan wrote:I don't think that Guts would acknowledge that any Apostle (and especially Griffith) could ever be anything other then a threat to Caska, no matter what they say/do to try to convince him otherwise. And thus I don't think he'd believe there was any chance of saving Caska by cooperating. If anything, he'd be convinced that the chance of saving her would be smaller rather then greater. Thus he'd feel it was better trying to save her by himself (or rather with only his non-Apostle allies helping). After all, there's no way to know that it is impossible to save someone until afterwards, especially for someone like Guts who's entire life is practically a defiance of the odds. How could he ever know that saving Caska was impossible without the aid of an Apostle? And without that knowledge, how could he even consider letting one of them "help" since that would seem to only make the situation worse.

I have to agree with you. Just because Guts has for now abandoned his thoughts for revenge, it doesn't mean that Guts has to like the apostles. Guts will find a way to save his party's and his own hides without the help of the apostles.

Guts won't accept a ride on Zodd's back, but if Zodd has a use for Guts to be on his back, he would force him to, against Guts decision.

Post by **Phoenix** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:29 am

I have to agree with you. Just because Guts has for now abandoned his thoughts for revenge, it doesn't mean that Guts has to like the apostles. Guts will find a way to save his party's and his own hides without the help of the apostles.

I never said he'd have to like the apostles, I'm merely implying that he would accept some as a necessary evil in extreme situations.

Guts won't accept a ride on Zodd's back, but if Zodd has a use for Guts to be on his back, he would force him to, against Guts decision.

Not if he needs him healthy.

Post by **Istvan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:35 pm

I think he'd be more likely to ask Serpico for a ride (just for himself) or, even better, ask Schierke to cast some sort of flight spell (she ought to be able to). Regardless, I can't see him getting a ride from Zodd. Amoung other things, how could he trust Zodd not to tip him off half way up? And for that matter, why on earth would Zodd need Guts help?

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:34 am

well,Zodd is respecting Gutts and didn't killed him in some occasions;
also,I think that Zodd has too much honor remaining to tip off Guts if he ever accept to take him on a ride.

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:33 am

Istvan wrote:I think he'd be more likely to ask Serpico for a ride (just for himself) or, even better, ask Schierke to cast some sort of flight spell (she ought to be able to). Regardless, I can't see him getting a ride from Zodd. Amoung other things, how could he trust Zodd not to tip him off half way up? And for that matter, why on earth would Zodd need Guts help?

Don't speak too soon, in the chapter 277, Guts is seen on top of Zodd. I don't want to spoil anything more, so yeah. But it was under a quite forced situation, and it was important for both their survival at that time.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:01 pm

Don't speak too soon, in the chapter 277, Guts is seen on top of Zodd. I don't want to spoil anything more, so yeah. But it was under a quite forced situation, and it was important for both their survival at that time.

...... wow, I'm an undercover prophet.

well,Zodd is respecting Gutts and didn't killed him in some occasions;

Some sort of a grudging respect, I suppose. He survived the Eclipse, and SK considers him useful.

also,I think that Zodd has too much honor remaining to tip off Guts if he ever accept to take him on a ride.

I don't think he loses that much honor simply by letting people ride on his back.

Post by **Istvan** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:39 am

Wow, I quite possibly stand corrected (damn, that was fast). I'll have to wait for the chapter to be sure, but it very well be that I'll need to change my position in the very near future. We'll have to see.

Post by **Phoenix** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:06 am

The thing is, the previous Gutts, the wanderer, would've done what you just said: never, ever, *ever* ally with an apostle. The current mature Gutts understands that he needs to remain alive to cure Caska and take out Femto. It's a matter of priorities, where pride can't get in the way. Besides, if someone was going to even remotely trust an apostle with anything, that apostle would be Zodd -_-

Post by **Istvan** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:37 am

OK, admitedly, Zodd is the clostest thing to trustworthy I've yet seen in an Apostle, and while he'd chop you into pieces for kicks and giggles, I can't actually picture him lying, so if someone was going to trust an Apostle, Zodd would be the best choice. I'm still reserving judgement till we see what actually happened.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:12 am

Yeah, I have to agree, if there was any one apostle Gatts would even consider cooperating with, it'd have to be Zodd, as seen in the new chapter. I mean, the guy did save his ass by loaning him his sword when Gatts was fight Boscogne. I'd agree, it seems to be a type of strained mutual respect. However, they're still going to have their death match eventually, if someone doesn't off the other one first. I have to say, score one for Phoenix.

Post by **Phoenix** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:14 am

Or rather, Gutts saw him as a tool he could use at that moment. He needed to get airborne, Zodd could fly, Zodd also wanted to kill the guy, so he just put 2 and 2 together.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:21 pm

Well yeah, of course.

Post by **Istvan** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:48 pm

Certainly nobody is suggesting that Guts would ever befriend an Apostle, or anything like that. A temporary tool is about the outer limit of the possible.

Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:22 am

We'll see. After a temporary alliance, the sky's the limit. Anyway, I digress, now that Ganishka's thundercloud form has been taken out, what will he do? Use it again? After all, the only reason Gutts could do it is because he was on top of Zodd. If he wee to use it again, I'm not sure how Gutts would survive.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:47 pm

On the other hand, the Emperor appeared to be wounded by that attack, probably badly. I doubt he's in any condition to use that form again any time soon. Amoung other things, if he could create it again right after Guts destroyed it, it would severely decrease the coolness (and power) of the Dragon Slayer, since really, how much difference is there in a sword that can do no damage to that form, and one that dispells it for only ten seconds? No, I'd predict it will be quite a while till we seen the Emperor go on a rampage again (though eventually, he certainly will do so at some point in the future).

Post by **Deathbringer** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:48 am

He sounded more pissed then hurt to me.

Post by **NoX** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:10 am

I think Griffith will use Guts agains Emperor in future.

Post by **Starnum** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:18 am

Deathbringer wrote:He sounded more pissed then hurt to me.

It looked like smoke was rising off of his face, so I bet it hurt him, at least a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up with a scar like that of Scar's in FMA.

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:05 pm

i disagree. I think that if Guts wasn't trying to cure casca at the moment, that there would have been a decent (albeit small) chance that he would have teamed up with Ganishka to take on Griffith. Guts DOES hate all apostles, but his main goal is to kill griffith and the godhand, even if he has to spare a few or work with a couple to achieve that goal, i believe he would do it.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:34 pm

but as you can see, he wouldn't team up with the emperor, even if it kills him...

speaking of which, I also think that Big Man G has been taken out for a while
it's somewhat ridiculous that he can exercise all that power just chillin' on his sofa
and he was not only pissed, but also hurt (and even more pissed becouse he's been hurt), and I bet it wasn't a simple scratch
after all, he insisted that the guards stay away...not to see him weakened and