Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:03 pm

Many apologies, I was very tired when I was on the computer last night.

I apologize and abase myself before you for this mistake, and am prepared to commit sepuku to attone for my error if you so wish.

Post by **EvilDmitri** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:05 am

I don't believe it will end on a sad note. Even if the tone is very grim, there is an element of hope present throughout the manga, and I think that in the end everything won't be 'hunky dory' but instead with a mild hopefulness. Perhaps Casca and Gatts becoming parents to Godo's adopted daughter and the boy. Or maybe having it end with a scene paralleling Griffith's dream of a simple life with Casca. Or Gatts getting severely injured and being taken care of by Casca, like the old days. Of course, Istvan will think thats way too typical and nice and it should end with everyone dying in some emo fashion

. The only certainty really is that nothing is certain about the future of Berserk.

Post by **equalityofcipher** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:35 am

i truly hope the ending will be more dramatic than that. i really can't see Guts as the parental kind. speaking of Rickert, the fact that the story line keeps him alive makes me think he is due to play a big part later on. it's significant, i think, that he became a swordsmith, and trained by Goto at that. perhaps he'll be needed to mend the dragon slayer at some crucial point, or maybe he'll make Guts a new weapon (be it a sword or something else) altogether.

Post by **EvilDmitri** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:50 am

equalityofcipher wrote:i truly hope the ending will be more dramatic than that. i really can't see Guts as the parental kind. speaking of Rickert, the fact that the story line keeps him alive makes me think he is due to play a big part later on. it's significant, i think, that he became a swordsmith, and trained by Goto at that. perhaps he'll be needed to mend the dragon slayer at some crucial point, or maybe he'll make Guts a new weapon (be it a sword or something else) altogether.

I think he can make it dramatic without making it horribly depressing

Post by **Istvan** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:46 pm

I don't believe it will end on a sad note. Even if the tone is very grim, there is an element of hope present throughout the manga, and I think that in the end everything won't be 'hunky dory' but instead with a mild hopefulness. Perhaps Casca and Gatts becoming parents to Godo's adopted daughter and the boy. Or maybe having it end with a scene paralleling Griffith's dream of a simple life with Casca. Or Gatts getting severely injured and being taken care of by Casca, like the old days. Of course, Istvan will think thats way too typical and nice and it should end with everyone dying in some emo fashion . The only certainty really is that nothing is certain about the future of Berserk.

I actually agree that the story may not end in complete tragedy (by the way, everyone dying wouldn't be all that untypical) I just don't think it will be a completely happy ending either. The story just doesn't seem to suppoert a perfect happy ending to me, although we'll have to see. I will note that I truly can't see Guts as a parental type, so I doubt it will end with him taking care of any children.

On a side note, weren't you the one who thought that the story was too happy/optimistic lately, and that some huge tragedy (a.k.a. the leveling of Elfheim) had to be coming soon to make it dark again? This seems to be something of a role change for you, EvilDmitri.

Post by **EvilDmitri** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:16 am

Istvan wrote:
I don't believe it will end on a sad note. Even if the tone is very grim, there is an element of hope present throughout the manga, and I think that in the end everything won't be 'hunky dory' but instead with a mild hopefulness. Perhaps Casca and Gatts becoming parents to Godo's adopted daughter and the boy. Or maybe having it end with a scene paralleling Griffith's dream of a simple life with Casca. Or Gatts getting severely injured and being taken care of by Casca, like the old days. Of course, Istvan will think thats way too typical and nice and it should end with everyone dying in some emo fashion . The only certainty really is that nothing is certain about the future of Berserk.
I actually agree that the story may not end in complete tragedy (by the way, everyone dying wouldn't be all that untypical) I just don't think it will be a completely happy ending either. The story just doesn't seem to suppoert a perfect happy ending to me, although we'll have to see. I will note that I truly can't see Guts as a parental type, so I doubt it will end with him taking care of any children.

On a side note, weren't you the one who thought that the story was too happy/optimistic lately, and that some huge tragedy (a.k.a. the leveling of Elfheim) had to be coming soon to make it dark again? This seems to be something of a role change for you, EvilDmitri.

Well the ending is wide extrapolation set probably 2-3 years down the line when the manga draws to an end. I think by then things will become more hopeful. Not necessairly a perfect hunky dory ending but certainly one that sets Gatts back to a more "normal" lifestyle. Of course.. knowing Gatts.. he might just pack his things and wander off as a nomad, seeking battle.. but from what he has experianced with Casca (in the Golden Age) he obviously has seen what it is to have someone and desires deeply to lead a more normal life with that person, though at present he is unable due to her condition and the apostles.

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:14 am

Personally, I've been sort of wondering, if such an ending occurs (and it is certainly a good possibility), what kind of battles Guts will have afterwards. His "dream" was basically to continue to have difficult fights, but after fighting Apostles for so long, I wonder how satisfied he'll be able to be fighting only human foes. There are very, very few who can give him a good fight even now, and he's only getting stronger. I wonder if, in such a scenario, he might not ultimately end up like Zodd was, searching for strong opponents but almost continually disapointed.

Post by **Eldo** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:28 am

I think the ending of Berserk would be Guts and Casca riding on a white horse towards the sunset in the horizon.

Post by **FightClub** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:24 am

Eldo wrote:I think the ending of Berserk would be Guts and Casca riding on a white horse towards the sunset in the horizon.

I'd commit suicide, not even like a bottle of pills, slicing of the wrist, or shooting myself, I'd blugeon myself in the head to death. I would be -that- let down, maybe Guts and naked crazy Farnese riding his sword, now I'm down for that.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:22 pm

FightClub wrote:
Eldo wrote:I think the ending of Berserk would be Guts and Casca riding on a white horse towards the sunset in the horizon.
I'd commit suicide, not even like a bottle of pills, slicing of the wrist, or shooting myself, I'd blugeon myself in the head to death.

*Crosses his fingers* Oh man, I so hope that's how it ends.

Post by **FightClub** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:25 pm

Starnum wrote:
FightClub wrote:
Eldo wrote:I think the ending of Berserk would be Guts and Casca riding on a white horse towards the sunset in the horizon.
I'd commit suicide, not even like a bottle of pills, slicing of the wrist, or shooting myself, I'd blugeon myself in the head to death.
*Crosses his fingers* Oh man, I so hope that's how it ends.

*ammendment to plan* Strap 24 tons of c4 plastic explosives to Starnum's computer chair, then blugeon self to death with remote for the explosives.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:28 pm

Hahaha, as if.

Post by **Istvan** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:53 pm

If you're going to go that far, why not just smuggle a nuke near to his house, then personally detonate it by hand. Suicide, revenge, and rampant destruction to show your pain, all rolled into one.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:28 am

Man, if Miura really did try that ending and lots of people commit suicide and kill themselves, no jury in the world could convict him.

Or it could be 'Congratulations!!! You are the winner!!! Game Over' type of ending. And then the credits roll.

Post by **Istvan** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:28 pm

Who needs juries? While many might commit suicide (in various interesting ways) what makes you think that some individuals won't also go kill Miura? Maybe even with a suicide attack, for the best of both worlds.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:46 pm

Istvan wrote:Who needs juries? While many might commit suicide (in various interesting ways) what makes you think that some individuals won't also go kill Miura? Maybe even with a suicide attack, for the best of both worlds.

He'd probably be in a safe house using all the monies he's earned...

'I've been expecting a day like this ever since I made the ending first and the story second...'

Post by **equalityofcipher** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:22 am

Istvan wrote:Who needs juries? While many might commit suicide (in various interesting ways) what makes you think that some individuals won't also go kill Miura? Maybe even with a suicide attack, for the best of both worlds.

ok, now we're all officially on the terrorist watch list.

Post by **FightClub** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:55 am

equalityofcipher wrote:
Istvan wrote:Who needs juries? While many might commit suicide (in various interesting ways) what makes you think that some individuals won't also go kill Miura? Maybe even with a suicide attack, for the best of both worlds.
ok, now we're all officially on the terrorist watch list.

*high five* Hopefully they got me on FBI's top ten now.

Post by **Starnum** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:34 pm

Please, Miura would pwned anyone who couldn't handle whatever ending he decided to come up with. He'd probably tranc anyone who comes onto his property all sniper like, with his custom made Mosin Nagant. Next thing you know you're waking up in his torture chamber, where he keeps you alive for a year while he makes you wish you were never born. Heh, I wouldn't want to chance that.

Post by **equalityofcipher** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:38 pm

ha! all Seven -like where the dude is wasting away in the room with the little tree air fresheners. my heart almost stopped when he moved around in the bed!

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:24 pm

Please, Miura would pwned anyone who couldn't handle whatever ending he decided to come up with. He'd probably tranc anyone who comes onto his property all sniper like, with his custom made Mosin Nagant. Next thing you know you're waking up in his torture chamber, where he keeps you alive for a year while he makes you wish you were never born. Heh, I wouldn't want to chance that.

Are you suggesting that all the (many) torture events in Berserk indicate that Miura might have first hand experience at it? And perhaps is looking to further refine all the techniques so they can be even more detailed and horrifying in watever Miura creates next?

Post by **RedRose** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:44 am

Berserk is basically the development and changes in the relationship on Guts and Griffith.
Before the Eclipse:

I have read some earlier discussion saying that there is 'homo' theme to their relationship. I disagree. Their relationship is more like best-friend, brother, companion, and it goes way deeper than the romantic love. Their relationship are very closed to those of Harry McDowel and Brandon Heat. (for some that don't know those name, shame on you, Just kidding.) The relationship can be decribe as soul-mate, that-special-someone, or the-most-important-person in your life. It a type of love, but I think that it is much deeper and stronger than the romantic love. [ I strongly disagree to those that said that Griffith is 'just gay' or 'dirty' when he decide to sleep with the old guy for money. He did it for his comrades. He want to minimize the the casualty of his comrades. In my view, he is very noble for doing that. Griffith said so himself that he don't feel guilty when people die for his cause, but if he can do something to lessen the number of death, then he will do it no matter what it is. For those that said that he is just gay for doing it is just shallow and you completely missed the point of it. The author would jump out of his seat and rip out his hair until his hair look like Homer Simpsons if he read what you said ]

Griffith's dream before the eclipse is to get his own kingdoms. He is on constant alert, thinking, plotting, planning. You know how stressful that really is? That is why he needs someone there for emotional support. And Guts is that someone. Whe Guts left, Griffith felt lost, and have an emotional breakdown. It cause to a suicidal acts, which is a one-night stand with Charlotte-hime. He does not look suprise when he got caught, instead, he knows that he will get caught and his dream will ends. But he just cannot go on with his dream without Guts. Griffith gives that speech to Charlotte is not wrong, it is what he thinks. But what he feels is different. Griffith may never admits it, but he is still weak and childlish on the inside, and he needs someone there.
Guts is also childlish. That water fights show us that both Guts and Griffith is childlish. After the Gambino incidents: Griffith is the first person that Guts care about, the first person that he open his heart to, and the first person that he trust. Guts left to seek his dreams. That brings up the next question, What is Guts dreams? His dream is just to earn Griffith respect, and to be Griffith 'friends'. He did not realize it until it too late, which is one year later. The day he left, he had lost that special relationship between Griffith and him.

After the Eclipse: The relation between Griffith and Guts is still uncertain, so i just analyze the character/personality after the Eclipse.

Griffith's dream is still to get his own kingdoms. But now, he is the king of demons and human. The story that Sonia tells about the duck, hawks, and dragons are really cute, but have lot of meaning. Griffith has the charisma, charm, ambition to make him the supreme being of the human, demon, and god world. He is someone capable of uniting the the worlds. I disagree that it is his fate to be the supreme being. No. His personality is what make him special. He have the charm that captivate both demons and human, girls and guys, and even the loner Guts. After reincarnated, he vowed to himself not to be weak again, not to depend on someone again. That is why he don't care, don't give a damn about Guts or Caska. But he still care about them because he save Caska and did not kill Guts many times. But he just don't want to have any emotional ties anymore. You can said that he had already shut the door to his hearts.

Guts: What is his dreams? To kill Griffith? Does he really hate Griffith?
He did not hate Griffith, if you look closely enough. I think that it is Femto that he hates. Femto is the image that rape Caska, killed all the band of the Hawks. If he hate Griffith then how come he 'forgot' that he needs to kill him when he encounter the old silver-hair Griffith. Look closely at his reaction, words, and facial expression on vol 22, when he encounter Griffith then you know what I means. Did his face soften when Griffith said the come to see Guts? When your greatest nemesis leave, are you going to ask him "where are you..?" When he looks at snow, he thinks that years ago, he leave Griffith, now Griffith leaves him. That don't sound like hates. It sound like someone who regret losing something precious to him. He remind me of Brandon Heat. Brandon said that he needs to kill Harry, but when the chance come, he protects Harry with his life. When the chance come, will Guts be able to kill Griffith? Who knows. So I don't think Guts have a dream. He keep on chasing Griffith's shadow, tell himself that he need to take revenge. That is what his mind tell him, that is what he should have done. But what does his heart tells him? Only the end will tells us that.

My wordings may mislead people that Griffith and Guts are gay. But that is not true. There are many different ways to love someone. There are many love that is stronger than sexual/romantic love. And the love and the feelings that I mention between Griffith and Guts is that kind of love. It is deep, complicated, and really difficult to explaind. Closer look at the words, facial expression, and the ways the author draws the eyes tell us a lot about the relationship between those two.

I am a girl but I had always been a big fan of Berserk and Gungrave, because of the complicted human relation and love.

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:40 am

i think you probably have something good to say...ill get around to reading it later...cliff notes for now?

you necro'd the shit outta this thread, but it seems like you have something good to say, just because i agree with you that this whole manga is mostly about the interaction between guts and griffith (with other subplots such as casca)

Post by **Starnum** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:54 am

Hell yeah, now that's how you necro a thread. I like what you said, and I agree with you for the most part.

Post by **RedRose** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:21 am

Starnum wrote:Hell yeah, now that's how you necro a thread. I like what you said, and I agree with you for the most part.

By 'necro' you mean 'kill'? Sorry for killing the thread, if that is what I am doing with my 'essay' post. And thanks for agreeing with me on most part.

I am mostly a lurker, but when I post, I post long thread/responses. *Speaking from a girl who likes dark theme anime, sports, write essay, and read books*