Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

[EvilDmitri]

I would point out that Schierke is still an apprentice and yet she is able to cast spells that seem powerful enough to crush your average Apostle. Again, I'm not arguing that Elfheim could hold out against a full scale assault by Griffith and the Hawks, I'm just saying that crushing it would be a major (and probably expensive) undertaking, and Griffith has better things to be doing with all that effort (and probably Apostle lives) when he's already in the middle of a major war. Not to mention that he would have to explain to his human allies where a large chunk of his most powerful forces have gone (and telling the truth probably wouldn't work). Last, to say that something is "the next logical step", when it is to the extent that most readers are seeing the possibility (people have been speculating on whether Elfheim would be destroyed when they arrive for a long time) means that it is obvious. I just have enough respect for Miura as a writer to doubt that the future plot of the story will be that blantently obvious.

Again, you attach such supremely negative connotations to something being predictable. I really haven't seen a bunch of people proposing that this is what will happen next, but I do see people agreeing that it probably will happen. Just because people seem to agree that it will happen doesn't mean its blatently obvious. You don't have to attack the concept so zealously.. especially when you don't have better prediction. I would really be dissapointed if a writer as good as Miura DIDN'T destroy Elfheim, I honestly can't see an alternative. It's one event, not the entire future of the story, and I think it would make a great dramatic moment which would build on Puck's character greatly. If you're considering Griffith's allies, you're putting waaay too much thought into it. Griffith will do what he likes. That is his character - only Gatts will stop him; not Elfheim, or anyone else.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

First off, about Gutts and Griffeth and when the monumental fight (which will occur sooner or later) will occur and what will be the outcome. The fact is is that no one truley knows when this is going to occur. We know that Griffeth and Gutts both have different goals at the moment.

We know Gutts goal is to take Caska to Elf Helm to see if her mental illness/their curse can be lifted, while Griffeth is still in the works to become ruler of Midland (perhaps taking the princess as his bride). So its pretty obvious Griffeth wouldnt go out of his way just to kill a long lost friend/new found enemy.

Its pretty interesting to see how, over time both Gutts and Griffeth have both grown very powerful in their own unique way. From the very first battle in which Griffeth and Gutts fought for Griffeths right to call Gutts his own, and now the two powerhouses are bound to have an epic clash. Its only a matter of time before Miura reveals to us what Griffeths motives were for killing his entire army and what Gutts has to say/do about it.

[Eldo]

I don't expect Griffith to raze Elfhelm to the ground before Guts reaches it, because he has no way of reaching there without the aid of an Elf, as Guts has with Puck. I agree with Istvan that with a whole society of magical creatures and magicians living there, Griffith would need more than an army of apostles to even attempt to destroy or even touch a hair on Elfhelm's metaphorical head. Flora may have been a magician of the highest order, but if what Puck says is true, then Elfhelm should have a whole army of magicians that may not pale in comparision with Flora. While I agree that Puck's character will change drastically if Elfhelm was slaughtered, I don't think Miura has any intentions on changing his character after so carefully developing him to be the comedy relief of this series. For that reason, I don't think Elfhelm will be destroyed upon Guts first encounter with the Elven city, and I for one am interested to see how Miura would portray this utopia through his image and artwork. I don't see why burning Elfhelm would make Miura a great writer or anything. Since we have no idea when they will reach Elfhelm, it's really kind of pointless to argue about it and disprove other people's theories. For now, I agree with Istvan's facts, they are entirely feasible and I agree with him that Elfhelm will not be razed to the ground at first encounter, but maybe while they are at the city. There will be casualties, but not to the point of genocide, in which case the survivors of the clash will aid Guts in his quest. Nobody's predictions are right or wrong at this point, but don't expect Miura to follow the general theme of what should or should make a great writer.

As for the future, if Guts will somehow need to take down Griffith, he will need to enlist the aid everyone he knows. Magical creatures and all that jazz. Normal humans will not be able to last more than a couple of seconds on the battlefield.

[Starnum]

I think it’s totally possible that Elfheim could be attacked. However, I doubt it would fall easily. Therefore I couldn’t really say what would come from such a battle. I also think that in the end it will be Griffith and Gatts who are fighting. Yet, since Miura is a good writer, I can’t assume to know how that fight will end. In any case, I’ve never been much of one for speculation, but that’s what I think.

[EvilDmitri]

I don't expect Griffith to raze Elfhelm to the ground before Guts reaches it, because he has no way of reaching there without the aid of an Elf, as Guts has with Puck. I agree with Istvan that with a whole society of magical creatures and magicians living there, Griffith would need more than an army of apostles to even attempt to destroy or even touch a hair on Elfhelm's metaphorical head. Flora may have been a magician of the highest order, but if what Puck says is true, then Elfhelm should have a whole army of magicians that may not pale in comparision with Flora. While I agree that Puck's character will change drastically if Elfhelm was slaughtered, I don't think Miura has any intentions on changing his character after so carefully developing him to be the comedy relief of this series. For that reason, I don't think Elfhelm will be destroyed upon Guts first encounter with the Elven city, and I for one am interested to see how Miura would portray this utopia through his image and artwork. I don't see why burning Elfhelm would make Miura a great writer or anything. Since we have no idea when they will reach Elfhelm, it's really kind of pointless to argue about it and disprove other people's theories. For now, I agree with Istvan's facts, they are entirely feasible and I agree with him that Elfhelm will not be razed to the ground at first encounter, but maybe while they are at the city. There will be casualties, but not to the point of genocide, in which case the survivors of the clash will aid Guts in his quest. Nobody's predictions are right or wrong at this point, but don't expect Miura to follow the general theme of what should or should make a great writer.

As for the future, if Guts will somehow need to take down Griffith, he will need to enlist the aid everyone he knows. Magical creatures and all that jazz. Normal humans will not be able to last more than a couple of seconds on the battlefield.

I'm almost certain there will be an attack. The timing of it I have no clue on; before, after, during their visit.. and the scope of the attack is also debatable, but I think for sure something will happen in Elfheim. It wouldn't be terribly hard to follow the troop to Elfheim, especially for someone like the hunter captain. And now that I think about the timing of it a little more, I think that if something tragic were to happen a little ways after Miura has given us a glimpse of the utopia it would increase the impact on the reader. I think it's good discussion though; the future of Berserk will certainly be a great read.

[Istvan]

How exactly is the Hunter Apostle supposed to follow them over the water without being noticed? On land, certainly, but on a nice, flat ocean, anything following them would stick out like a sore thumb. I actually rather like Eldo's idea, of an attack that is beaten off, possibly with heavy losses. That would give us a certain amount of tragedy, but might also cause a number of the survivers to decide to help Guts take down Griffith. If Guts is going to ever fight Griffith, he'll need some way to deal with his army of Apostles, and an army of his own (of spellcasters and magical creatures) might be the way to do it. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much of a leader Guts is, especially when we're talking entire armies (or even just large groups) so I'm not sure how well that would work out. We'll have to wait and see.

[Eldo]

I do think it's feasible that Guts and company would be followed, but don't forget, Guts' brand can sense them, along with Schierke detecting deviations in od. They have to be out of their range or detection radius to be able to follow them. Also, Griffith has also mentioned that Guts is not worth his attention, so he may not waste his resources by sending someone to follow them. But Griffith's views may change now that Guts has a magic caster in the party. It all remains to be seen.

[EvilDmitri]

I do think it's feasible that Guts and company would be followed, but don't forget, Guts' brand can sense them, along with Schierke detecting deviations in od. They have to be out of their range or detection radius to be able to follow them. Also, Griffith has also mentioned that Guts is not worth his attention, so he may not waste his resources by sending someone to follow them. But Griffith's views may change now that Guts has a magic caster in the party. It all remains to be seen.

Griffith saying that might just be for show, when deep down he really does care about what Guts is up to - a leader must maintain his image.

I think they can be "followed" in a sense rather easily. Any major leader has connections everywhere, whether it be from just common folk to high up nobility. Somebody is going to notice a ship leaving; he could easily find out thusly, or from one of the ship's crew whom hold no alligience towards Guts. He doesn't necessairly have to be tailed to be tracked. Also, his mark attracts the apostles, so undoubtedly just as he can sense them, they can sense him. Since they usually come to him before he notices, we can presume that it is easier for the apostles to sense the marked than it is for the marked to sense the apostles. It is a hex cast for the purpose of the sacrifice, after all, no reason it should be more beneficial to Guts than to them. Guts has far too great of an aura about him, whether it be from his combat prowess or mark or otherwise, he simply doesn't seem to be the kind of person who can just slip by unnoticed. Whatever the case, the Elfheim chapters are going to be thrilling. I can't wait ^_^.

[Istvan]

I don't think the Apostles can sense the mark, since at several points Apostles have only realised he was marked when they actually saw the brand, and they've been very surprised when they did. It is clear that the brand atracts (and manifests) evil spirits, but it doesn't seem to have such an effect on Apostles. And while normally I would agree that it wouldn't be very surprising for Griffith to have spies, even one on the ship they take, I question any spy taking the time to send a message before the ship flees given what is occuring in the city right now. It just doesn't seem likely to me.

[Sandman]

The pig apostle could smell the mark, or it could have been the left over stench of the Eclipse.

[Istvan]

Or maybe it was at the eclipse and just remembered Guts sent? Regardless, it seems clear that the Apostles can't sense the brand, or more of them would have realised who Guts was sooner, and that he was branded. For that matter, if they could sense it somehow, the Kushan Emperor wouldn't have asked if Guts was a member of the Neo Hawks, since he'd have known that Guts was branded.

[equalityofcipher]

I think they can be "followed" in a sense rather easily. Any major leader has connections everywhere, whether it be from just common folk to high up nobility.

remember that griffith has the little psychic girl on his side. we don't know a whole lot about the extent of her abilities, and they are still developing. i mean, she quite easily projected the image of the town's destruction in schierke's mind (why she didn't tell everyone so they could get the hell out of dodge, i don't know). Anyway, having met and become friends with schierke may be all psychic girl needed to form a kind of mental bond with her. it's unlikely that she just happened to be in that particular town for no reason. it is possible that griffith sent her there for the specific purpose of getting whatever she needed that would allow her to get glimpses into guts and party's location. just a thought

[Istvan]

The reason she didn't warn anyone else is that she thought that the town deserved to be destroyed. If you recall, she doesn't think a whole lot of humanity in general, and the sights she saw in that town convinced her it deserved its fate. But the idea that she might have been able to form a mental bond with Schierke just from meeting her is very interesting. If she did, do you think Schiierke would eventually be able to detect it? And even if she did would she be able to break it?

[Eldo]

it's unlikely that she just happened to be in that particular town for no reason. it is possible that griffith sent her there for the specific purpose of getting whatever she needed that would allow her to get glimpses into guts and party's location. just a thought

She was supposed to go to see the pope with Mule, but she left and wandered off on her own, which is why Mule went to find her.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

Anyway this little girl is an ennemy for Guts and his followers(she is helping Griffith building a mythology around "the white hawk"),his death will maybe be unavoidable in the future(I really dislike her,I don't know why) .

[equalityofcipher]

But the idea that she might have been able to form a mental bond with Schierke just from meeting her is very interesting. If she did, do you think Schiierke would eventually be able to detect it? And even if she did would she be able to break it?

i think that if it's possible that the little girl has bonded with Schierke that she might not be aware of it at first b/ca Guts, et al., are always pretty preoccupied. in addition, Schierke is a littlte bit lonely i think, not being able to bond with anyone in the way she had with her mistress. in a way, i think it's possible that Schierke could have welcomed such a mental bond subconsciously. i mean, if psychic girl is part of the story, she must have some role to play. i don't mean this to turn into another stupid theory. all i can do is analyze past events in anticipation of the next chapter. anticipating goodies (whatever they may be) is always the best part!

[Istvan]

But she seems to be becoming steadily closer to the other members of the party, so I'm not sure that she is (or will continue to be) all that lonely or desperate for companionship.

[Starnum]

whatever she needed that would allow her to get glimpses into guts and party's location. just a thought

As Eldo said, that's not why she was sent there. However, that would be a very interesting development, even if it occurs from something so indirect as their chance meeting.

The reason she didn't warn anyone else is that she thought that the town deserved to be destroyed. If you recall, she doesn't think a whole lot of humanity in general, and the sights she saw in that town convinced her it deserved its fate.

I don't believe that, and I think you're just making an assumption. Regardless of how she feels for the people of Vertanis, Schierke isn't the kind of person to think that an entire city of people should be massacred.

Anyway this little girl is an ennemy for Guts and his followers(she is helping Griffith building a mythology around "the white hawk"),his death will maybe be unavoidable in the future(I really dislike her,I don't know why) .

I don't think Gatts is going to die at the end. At least, I sure fucking hope not. I'm so tired of the predictable heroic sacrifice at the end. I can't count the number of times I've seen that type of ending.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

hum,you quoted one of my english mistakes (french is my first language):
you should replace "his" by "her";
I do think that Guts will die in the end but I was talking about the medium girl
(I hope that Guts or Serpico will kill her,cause she is more dangerous than most of the apostles).

[Istvan]

I don't believe that, and I think you're just making an assumption. Regardless of how she feels for the people of Vertanis, Schierke isn't the kind of person to think that an entire city of people should be massacred.

I was actually talking about the medium girl, not Schierke. The medium clearly knew that the city was going to be destroyed, and thought this was a good thing (she even said something like "I guess it can't be helped if this place burns down."). Clearly Schierke wouldn't feel the same, although she doesn't seem to much like the city, she would probably act to save it, if she could.

[equalityofcipher]

hmmm. something about psychic chick makes me think she doesn't really give a damn about anything but perhaps what Griffith tells her. i wouldn't expect her to care if the city was destroyed. She and Griffith as he is now both show a strange kind of apathy towards things. what i really meant in the first place was why didn't Schierke tell the rest of her party what was going down from the jump so that they could high tail it out of there. i mean, i know guts was hurt up and then things got complicated with Farneze, but they really did risk death by staying as far as she knew.

as for why psychic girl was there, i only meant to imply that Griffith has always been a master strategist and he's on a whole other level now. So, if it were possible that the little girl could use her power in that way, Griffith would definitely know and be willing to exploit it. i was just thinking that the trip into the city could have been an excuse to do so. however, all of this is just mind wandering to take the edge off of the wait for what happens next.

[Gaiseric]

I don't think Gatts is going to die at the end. At least, I sure fucking hope not. I'm so tired of the predictable heroic sacrifice at the end. I can't count the number of times I've seen that type of ending.

Honestly, I dont think happy endings suit him. I think he'll die in the end.

[Starnum]

I was actually talking about the medium girl, not Schierke.

That doesn't even make any sense then because your post sounds as if it's in response to the question posed right before it, which was, "Why didn't Schierke warn the rest of the party about the tragedy to come." Oh well, whatever.

Honestly, I dont think happy endings suit him. I think he'll die in the end.

There are things far worse than death.

Also, since no one is expecting a happy ending, I think it'd be the perfect ending, heh.

[Istvan]

I don't know if he'll die in at the end of the manga, but I can't picture him just walking off into the sunset with Caska and everything is just swell. I would expect a much darker ending for this manga, although Eldo has a point that a happy ending would be unpredictable. I just don't think that it would fit very well with the overall tone of the manga. We'll have to see, but probably not for a number of years yet.

[Starnum]

I would expect a much darker ending for this manga, although Eldo has a point that a happy ending would be unpredictable.

Um...no. I'm like, not Eldo, heh.