Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

[EvilDmitri]

I don't really consider the Eclipse anything that cliche...the Eclipse was about the most random thing I've seen throughout the manga. While something influencial was to be expected after the golden years with the Hawks, nothing like that was expected nor was it cliche to see it happen. I was expecting maybe that Guts lost his arm in a war or something, but nothing like that in the Eclipse. I have to admit that Miura has used some plot devices that may seem similar in other mangas, but nothing that cliche, predictable or repeated and old has been seen as compared to other mangas, like shounen mangas.

Also, I'm not quite sure if you can say it follows the Greek 'Hero's Journey'. Guts is not by definition a 'hero' at all, he doesn't help people, he's on a hunt for apostles. He has no motives for rescuing people at all, he's just roaming around the lands killing apostles for his own purposes.

Elfhelm is well hidden away from Griffith, as well as Guts and company. It seems the only way to find Elfhelm is through Puck, and unless Griffith's army follows Guts' move, there won't be a chance of Griffith burning Elfhelm to the ground.

Hero is a vague word of for interpretation. The "Hero's Journey" archtype is a simple list of paticular conditions and situations which a main character in this form of story goes under.
These include:
Mysterious / Odd Birth Circumstances (Gatts born from corpse)
Person comes from common background to become extraordinary (Gatts a commoner)
Person gains a "Wise Guide" (Skullknight)
Person goes through a "Crossing the Border" period where he becomes heroic.. a point of no return (Eclipse)
Person finds himself deep within the midst of the enemy - belly of the beast (Eclipse)
Person is forced to make a sacrifice (The Mark - literally not by choice in this case)
The person seeks something (Could be interpreted as his search for removal of Mark or Casca's memory)
The person's "Wise Guide" dies (Hasn't happened, but i'm guessing it will)
The permanant alteration of character (Gatts won't be going back to the way he was originally)
A "Labyrinth" situation where the hero is trapped (Eclipse)
Person gets help from a higher power (Skullknight , Zodd when he gives him the sword)

I forgot the order in which these events are supposed to occur but they do. Star Wars - real original movie right? George Lucas actually studied the Greek "Hero's Journey" archetype and followed it EXACTLY in writing his story. Every element and phase of it can be found within his movies. Most stories don't contain ALL the elements, but generally at the least a few of them. Reconcilliation with the Father figure is one element which I don't really see happening in Berserk, considering Gatts killed his father figure. There is some element of a forbidden love or something which I don't completely remember (mythology class), which certainly would be the case with Casca. There is a "Slaying the Dragon" phase, where the hero takes down his arch enemy (Griffith), and an "Ultimate Boon" phase where the culmination of the hero's efforts results in whatever he is searching for being acchieved.

These are all well documented elements of the "Hero's Journey" Greek literary archetype. I'd say thats pretty damned close to what has happened in Berserk, though changed to the mood of the story of course, and not all are included. It's pretty obvious that the story follows this archetype, even if Gatts isn't your typical hero, he is the hero of the story nonetheless. What is a hero after all? There are people who are heroes by saving others, people who are heroes to their families by putting food on the table.. the Greek concept of a "Hero" is nothing like the modern one. Heracles was a hero, and he killed his parents; in fact he killed LOTS of people, that was his trait and his ultimate problem.

[MrFelony]

Don't think so. Griffith is too much involved with the Kushan invasion to simply stop his plans and go to Elfheim.

he did that to kill flora and the same goes for flora's place being obscure

[Quest]

EvilDmitri,
thanks for posting that tidbit on storywriting.
=)
i remember watching something like that in a documentary/interview called 'the power of myth'.

on elfheim,
i think something big will take place there. i remember reading that only magic can stop giffrith/the godhand and thus they are out to eradicate all powerful magic users. this was the premise on the attack on flora.

[EvilDmitri]

EvilDmitri,
thanks for posting that tidbit on storywriting.
=)
i remember watching something like that in a documentary/interview called 'the power of myth'.

on elfheim,
i think something big will take place there. i remember reading that only magic can stop giffrith/the godhand and thus they are out to eradicate all powerful magic users. this was the premise on the attack on flora.

I love writing ^.^ never took an art class so I focused a lot more on it in school. The similarities between Berserk and the classic Greek hero stories I just happened to notice, and I think they are very interesting.

[Khelegond]

Don't think so. Griffith is too much involved with the Kushan invasion to simply stop his plans and go to Elfheim.

he did that to kill flora and the same goes for flora's place being obscure

Yeah, but I'm inclined to think that the elven lands will be much more well protected than the witch's forest.

[Sandman]

Elfhelm is well hidden away...

If it is hidden how come Roderick knew where they were going??

[Khelegond]

Nah, I don't think he know where it is. I think he knows the sailor's tales. I highly doubt he knows the location, physically. He might have some clues (about lore - like 'it's near the Skull Island, right by Tortuga Island')

[Sandman]

Your right he said that he remebered hearing about it for a western port... sounding more and more like a Final Fantasy game

[Eldo]

Elfhelm is well hidden away...

If it is hidden how come Roderick knew where they were going??

They don't. Puck has an inbuilt compass in him. If everyone knows where it is, they would have been there already. They might as well try to go to America.

[Istvan]

he did that to kill flora and the same goes for flora's place being obscure

True, but Flora was one witch, and you notice she still took a number of Apostles with her. The impression I'm getting is that there are dozens (or hundreds) of magic users in Elfheim. I doubt Griffith wants to fight something like that when he's already fighting the Kushan King. He's smart enough to avoid major two front wars if he can.

Also, EvilDmitri you're missing my point when I say that Miura doesn't do things cliche. Yes, if you pare it down enough, Berserk can be made to fit some of those Archetypes (though I think you're really stretching on a few of those), but the way their done is totally new, and is highly unusual and unpredictable. For Elfheim to have already been under assault/destroyed when they arrive wouldn't be in any way unusual, and would instead be an increadible cliche. I think that Miura is a good enough author to avoid doing anything so obvious and common with the story.

[EvilDmitri]

he did that to kill flora and the same goes for flora's place being obscure

True, but Flora was one witch, and you notice she still took a number of Apostles with her. The impression I'm getting is that there are dozens (or hundreds) of magic users in Elfheim. I doubt Griffith wants to fight something like that when he's already fighting the Kushan King. He's smart enough to avoid major two front wars if he can.

Also, EvilDmitri you're missing my point when I say that Miura doesn't do things cliche. Yes, if you pare it down enough, Berserk can be made to fit some of those Archetypes (though I think you're really stretching on a few of those), but the way their done is totally new, and is highly unusual and unpredictable. For Elfheim to have already been under assault/destroyed when they arrive wouldn't be in any way unusual, and would instead be an increadible cliche. I think that Miura is a good enough author to avoid doing anything so obvious and common with the story.

Miura is not Dostoyevski or Tolstoy. As great as I think Berserk is, I don't find the story elements all that suprising. Elfheim being destroyed isn't THAT cliche, and it is the logical next step. Is illogical writing supposed to be good? And yes, things can be logical and still unexpected. Thusly why literary tools such as foreshadowing are used. If used correctly, as it is in Berserk (by Puck), it can set up a terribly emotional moment without you being any the wiser. If you know a lot of about writing and are a good writer, however, it's much easier to see things coming by looking at the piece from an author's perspective.

By destroying Elfheim, Griffith would further crush Gatt's hopes to help Casca. It would make for a hugely dramatic scene with Puck, a light hearted, fun loving character who really doesn't DESERVE to have anything bad to happen to him. Not only that, it would get the magic users out of the way. Also, this event has been set up by the text. Puck explains how much of a paradise it is. The writer is using this to set up an emotional attachment to Elfheim, just so he can break it down before your eyes. I'm not

If you really think Berserk is brilliant, breakthrough writing, then you should consider picking up Crime & Punishment, if you can stand to read a thousand pages of it. I love Miura's work. I love Berserk - the characters, the plot. It's all great, but it's not brilliant, and certainly not entirelly original. Sure, the situations and characters themselves might be original (with the god's hand and such), but the order in which they are presented in and the basic types of situations are not.

I can't say it will happen for sure, but here is my prediction. Gatts defeats his foes and heads off towards Elfheim. Meanwhile, Griffith does some intelligence work (possibly capturing one of the fairies or shaking a select few people up) and figures out where they are headed. He is a major leader, there is no doubt he can gets his hands on the information. He then sends one of his major apostles to the location, maybe even two.

I don't think the archer would be sent, as he has been characterized as more tame and civilized; hes a hunter, not a mass murderer. The moonlight knight might be sent, but again, knights have standards of nobility. As a writer, who would YOU send? Disregard how good you think they are. Think about the person's character. The logical choice for slaughtering the inhabitants of Elfheim is the masked apostle, who has already been set up to look insane and ruthless.

Gatts and crew arrive at Elfheim either immediately before (and witness) or immediately after the apostle slaughters the inhabitants. Puck is overwhelmed and either runs off or feints or something along those lines. Shireke (sp?) is appalled and senses something terrible (perhaps even before they arrive). Gatts and crew head in to either to look for survivors or to find Puck (if he runs off) and meet up with the apostle's soldiers. and probably after a lot of fighting, the apostle himself.

[Istvan]

There are several problems with that annalysis. First, it presupposes that one (or a few) Apostles could crush Elfheim, and I find this a highly dubious prospect. Second, as you just showed, it is easily predictable well in advance. And things can be unpredictable yet be entirely (within the context of the story) logical. Take a look at the Eclipse. Although it was entirely forseeable that something terrible was going to happen to Guts (and probably the Hawks as a whole) to make him hate Griffith, and to, in your words, put him "in the belly of the beast", the Eclipse itself, and its nature was totally unpredictable, and more awesome as a result. If you can predict well in advance the exact nature of the terrible and sad events that are going to occur, and they are totally predictable, (as the destruction of Elfheim would be) then they loose much of the shock and sadness they were created to inspire in the first place. Miura is, I believe, too good a writer to damage the story in such a way. In fact, I challenge you to find a single instance in the manga so far where some highly tragic and sad event took place that was so incredibly predictable and obvious. As you yourself admit, the situations are unpredictable. The senario you prepose has absolutely nothing unpredictable about it.

[EvilDmitri]

There are several problems with that annalysis. First, it presupposes that one (or a few) Apostles could crush Elfheim, and I find this a highly dubious prospect. Second, as you just showed, it is easily predictable well in advance. And things can be unpredictable yet be entirely (within the context of the story) logical. Take a look at the Eclipse. Although it was entirely forseeable that something terrible was going to happen to Guts (and probably the Hawks as a whole) to make him hate Griffith, and to, in your words, put him "in the belly of the beast", the Eclipse itself, and its nature was totally unpredictable, and more awesome as a result. If you can predict well in advance the exact nature of the terrible and sad events that are going to occur, and they are totally predictable, (as the destruction of Elfheim would be) then they loose much of the shock and sadness they were created to inspire in the first place. Miura is, I believe, too good a writer to damage the story in such a way. In fact, I challenge you to find a single instance in the manga so far where some highly tragic and sad event took place that was so incredibly predictable and obvious. As you yourself admit, the situations are unpredictable. The senario you prepose has absolutely nothing unpredictable about it.

There is nothing wrong with something being predictable. The witch being killed by the apostles was predictable. Certainly as predictable and feasible as Elfheim being overrun. As I said before, Miura is a good writer, but he is not infallable in his writing nor is he completely original, as 99% of writers aren't. If you honestly think he is a brilliant and dynamic writer who is groundbreaking in his work, I challenge you to read one of the great Russian classics.

What I have put forth is a perfectly viable and logical prediction of what MIGHT happen. What else will happen? They can't just go to Elfheim, get Casca cured, and have everything end up 'hunky-dory'. Berserk is too much of a tragic hero story to allow that. Griffith has a large number of very elite apostles, they WILL be used eventually, most likely one at a time. The logical conclusion is that one of them heads to Elfheim. It's not THAT predictable and it will still be dramatic even if you know it's going to happen. Not everything has to be original. Berserk matches up exactly with MANY elements of the classic Greek "Hero's Journey" archetype. I know this because I have studied it in school, and it CLEARLY parallels the structure at numerous points. The basic elements of the story have simply been done before. It's not a bad thing, if it works, go with it, there's nothing wrong with that. Great stories are spawned out of cliche ideas that have been used many many times. It's how these ideas are adapted that makes the stories great, and Berserk is a great adaptation of the class Hero's Journey.

[Istvan]

The witches death was, indeed, completely predictable, but it also wasn't very tragic. We all knew she would die, she told us so, and we barely knew her as a character, so it wasn't really sad. But if Elfheim is destroyed, it ought to be a done so it is much sadder, given the effect you want it to have on Puck. Thus it cannot occur until we know and like Elfheim enough to be sad at its destruction. And you still haven't explained why Griffith would be stupid enough to send a single Apostle to destroy some place like Elfheim, or how he could succeed at doing it (he's clearly not stupid enough to send his entire army of Apostles in the middle of a war). Grunbald was a very high ranking Apostle, and one dying witch took him out. The reason Griffith wants to destroy magic users is because they are dangerous, even potentially to him. He won't attack a major gathering of them until he is ready to truly commit all out to it, and he isn't yet because he's fighting the Kushan King. You say that something tragic ought to happen, and you may very well be right, but nothing says that it has to be obvious what it was. Something tragic had to end the Golden Age arc as well, but I doubt any of us saw the Eclipse coming.

Last, while several of the Russian classics are, indeed, very good, I think you focus on them way too much. There are a number of other writers who are just as good. One percent of writers throughout time is still a huge number of writers, and there are quite a few other good ones. While I wouldn't put Miura's work amoung the great classics of all time, it is an extremely good work, and the plot elements and story progression is well enough done that it is generally not obvious what is coming next.

[EvilDmitri]

The witches death was, indeed, completely predictable, but it also wasn't very tragic. We all knew she would die, she told us so, and we barely knew her as a character, so it wasn't really sad. But if Elfheim is destroyed, it ought to be a done so it is much sadder, given the effect you want it to have on Puck. Thus it cannot occur until we know and like Elfheim enough to be sad at its destruction. And you still haven't explained why Griffith would be stupid enough to send a single Apostle to destroy some place like Elfheim, or how he could succeed at doing it (he's clearly not stupid enough to send his entire army of Apostles in the middle of a war). Grunbald was a very high ranking Apostle, and one dying witch took him out. The reason Griffith wants to destroy magic users is because they are dangerous, even potentially to him. He won't attack a major gathering of them until he is ready to truly commit all out to it, and he isn't yet because he's fighting the Kushan King. You say that something tragic ought to happen, and you may very well be right, but nothing says that it has to be obvious what it was. Something tragic had to end the Golden Age arc as well, but I doubt any of us saw the Eclipse coming.

Last, while several of the Russian classics are, indeed, very good, I think you focus on them way too much. There are a number of other writers who are just as good. One percent of writers throughout time is still a huge number of writers, and there are quite a few other good ones. While I wouldn't put Miura's work amoung the great classics of all time, it is an extremely good work, and the plot elements and story progression is well enough done that it is generally not obvious what is coming next.

I was just citing Russian literature as an example, as it is often considered some of the best more modern writing in existance.

I'm not saying he will just send one apostle. It might be two. And if i remember correctly, the apostles command demon troops. Can a place described to be so much of a 'paradise' as Elfheim really be prepared to take on a suprise attack by a major apostle and his legions of demon warriors? You underestimate Griffith's tactical abilities. Remember, he fought off entire armies with only his Band of the Hawk, and now he commands demons which are far more powerful than the band ever was. I have no doubt that he could come up with something, and as far as I know there is no evidence that Elfheim HAS the power to protect itself against these demons, that is also pure speculation on your part. The apostles are very powerful and can be overwhelming in numbers. The only man who really stands a chance against them is Gatts. It simply cannot be so simple that they arrive in Elfheim and everything is rainbows and sunshine. Something tragic needs to happen, and I really think Elfheim will be razed.

[Istvan]

I base my confidence in the power on Elfheim on several factors. One, Puck has stated that there are a number of wizards and witches there, two one witch succeeded in taking out quite a few Apostles, including one of Griffith's highest ranking ones, three given that elves live there it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that a number of other magical creatures also live there, and we have seen for ourselves how powerful such creatures can be, and lastly I'm pretty sure that the elves themselves could be quite dangerous to Apostles. Sure, one or two elves (like Puck and the female one) aren't much threat, but Puck has shown that he has an attack that damages "evil" supernatural beings. It's a low level attack, but hundreds, or thousands of such attacks arriving simultaneously could add up to be quite powerful. Besides, given all the hype about the Elves' King, I would expect him to be quite powerful in his own right. While I would agree that something sad will probably happen, there are numerous other possibilities besides Elfheim being razed, and in many ways those others would seem more plausible then Griffith (who is a brilliant commander) getting himself involved in a two-front war.

As a side note, the "demon troops" that some of the Apostles command are, in fact, other lower ranking Apostles. Griffith doesn't command an army of demons, he commands an entire army of Apostles, which admitadly are in many ways the same thing.

[MrFelony]

here it ism also you'll see it's been applied to starwars as well as the matrix

The call to adventure Princess Leia's message "Follow the white rabbit"
Refusal of the call Must help with the harvest Neo won't climb out window
Supernatural aid Obi-wan rescues Luke from sandpeople Trinity extracts the "bug" from Neo
Crossing the first threshold Escaping Tatooine Agents capture Neo
The belly of the whale Trash compactor Torture room
II: Initiation
The road of trials Lightsaber practice Sparring with Morpheus
The meeting with the goddess Princess Leia Trinity
Temptation away from the true path1 Luke is tempted by the Dark Side Cypher (the failed messiah) is tempted by the world of comfortable illusions
Atonement with the Father Darth and Luke reconcile Neo rescues and comes to agree (that he's The One) with his father-figure, Morpheus
Apotheosis (becoming god-like) Luke becomes a Jedi Neo becomes The One
The ultimate boon Death Star destroyed Humanity's salvation now within reach
III: Return
Refusal of the return "Luke, come on!" Luke wants to stay to avenge Obi-Wan Neo fights agent instead of running
The magic flight Millennium Falcon "Jacking in"
Rescue from without Han saves Luke from Darth Trinity saves Neo from agents
Crossing the return threshold Millennium Falcon destroys pursuing TIE fighters Neo fights agent Smith
Master of the two worlds Victory ceremony Neo's declares victory over machines in final phone call
Freedom to live Rebellion is victorious over Empire Humans are victorious over machines

Common Mythic Elements
Two Worlds (mundane and special) Planetside vs. The Death Star Reality vs. The Matrix
The Mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi Morpheus
The Oracle Yoda The Oracle
The Prophecy Luke will overthrow the Emperor Morpheus will find (and Trinity will fall for) "The One"
Failed Hero Biggs In an early version of the script, Morpheus once believed that Cypher was "The One"
Wearing
Enemy's Skin Luke and Han wear stormtrooper outfits Neo jumps into agent's skin
Shapeshifter (the Hero isn't sure if he can trust this character) Han Solo Cypher
Animal familiar R2-D2, Chewbacca N/A
Chasing a lone animal into the enchanted wood (and the animal gets away) The Millennium Falcon follows a lone TIE fighter into range of the Death Star Neo "follows the white rabbit" to the nightclub where he meets Trinity


As for Flora, one he sent his, imo two most powerful apostles there to kill her along wit a good number of lesser apostles. she also didnt fight her death. she kenw it was coming and took it peacefully. but in this case i agree with dimitri that something tragic will come out of this trip to elfhelm.

[EvilDmitri]

Thanks MrFelony, that list includes a bunch that I had forgotten about, and should make things a lot more clear to everyone else . I'm guessing you either took a very similiar Mythology class as mine (we had a whole unit on story archetypes and Hero's Journey was the major one), or found that online, in the case of the latter post a link ^_^.

The "Hero's Journey" archetype really does match up with Berserk. Meeting with Goddess = Slan, Becoming God Like = Gatts growing ever stronger to where he might be able to fight the God's Hand..

Keep in mind, not all stories follow as many of these elements as Star Wars has. Star Wars was written by Lucas who studied Greek mythos and purposely included every single step in his script. That might make it "cliche".. but is Star Wars bad? Millions of people think its one of hte greatest movie series ever, and I certainly don't think its a bad movie or something thats really "been done". The same goes for Berserk. It does parallel the "Hero's Journey" archetype. Miura did not come up with his own brand new way of structuring a story that had no classical elements in it, and I really doubt many writers do. He did, however, take that archetype and really build something new and great out of it, just like Star Wars did. The facts and scenery and such in the manga really don't seem like they'd be from the Greeks, but neither does Star Wars, or the Matrix as Felony's list noted. It doesn't have to be. I'm only talking about the structure of the events, the places, and the people. It has worked for thousands of years, and still works today, giving us a manga masterpiece .

[Jon Maitreya]

I get the impression that Elfheim is a hidden location on Skellig Island (where they're headed). You'll notice that when Roderick asked where they were heading, Schierke replied 'Skellig island' instead of 'Elfheim.' To me, this implies that the Island it's on is fairly well known and accessibl by sea, however Elfheim occupies a location on it similar to Flora's house, locked in a separate dimension. Just my take on it.

[Istvan]

I'm not arguing that Berserk doesn't follow any of the classical Archetypes, clearly it does incorporate many of them. I'm just arguing that first, the way Berserk incorporates them is somewhat unconventional and unpredictable, as they must be to make it a good story (if it does what everyone else has done, in a very similiar way, it could hardly be classified as a very good story). Second, the destruction of Elfheim by Apostles as they arrive would be far to predictable and conventional for a strory that has done such a good job so far of being original. Certainly the framework is built on the great archetypes, but what is built from there, and how they are applyed, is fairly original. Apostles crushing Elfheim would be anything but. I'd also agree that something tragic will probably occur, I just don't think it will be that.

As a side note, I'd point out that even though Flora was dying already, and more or less accepted her fate, she still appears to have taken out Grunbeld, and who knows how many lesser Apostles. That's part of the reason I don't think the far more numerous spellcasters of Elfhiem would be all that easy to destroy, without Griffith leading the entire Band of the Hawks there (which he won't want to do because of the Kushans).

[EvilDmitri]

I'm not arguing that Berserk doesn't follow any of the classical Archetypes, clearly it does incorporate many of them. I'm just arguing that first, the way Berserk incorporates them is somewhat unconventional and unpredictable, as they must be to make it a good story (if it does what everyone else has done, in a very similiar way, it could hardly be classified as a very good story). Second, the destruction of Elfheim by Apostles as they arrive would be far to predictable and conventional for a strory that has done such a good job so far of being original. Certainly the framework is built on the great archetypes, but what is built from there, and how they are applyed, is fairly original. Apostles crushing Elfheim would be anything but. I'd also agree that something tragic will probably occur, I just don't think it will be that.

As a side note, I'd point out that even though Flora was dying already, and more or less accepted her fate, she still appears to have taken out Grunbeld, and who knows how many lesser Apostles. That's part of the reason I don't think the far more numerous spellcasters of Elfhiem would be all that easy to destroy, without Griffith leading the entire Band of the Hawks there (which he won't want to do because of the Kushans).

There are many possibilities. I'd really like to see Elfheim try and stop someone like Zodd along with a large army of lesser apostles. I think Flora was extraordinairely powerful, even among magic users. Just because the place is occupied by casters does not mean that they are all power, and it also does not mean that they know how to use their powers to destroy. If a God's Hand were to show up, Elfheim would be toast. No normal people are prepared to take on Apostles, even IF they are magic users. Flora is most definately not a normal magic user. I just don't see any alternative to Elfheim being razed. To me, it's going to happen, and the razing is essential to the story. How it will happen is up for grabs, but I really think it will occur. I'm not looking at how powerful anyone is, I am assuming that the antagonists have overwhelming power, because really, they do, and they need to for the story to work. If you think that Elfheim can defend itself, then it WOULD be unexpected if the apostles overrun it. It's really not THAT predictable anyways, it's just the next logical step if you look at it from an author's perspective. I am a talented writer and I really don't see many other options than for Elfheim - a place of purity, a paradise - to fall.

[frosty]

I agree. Elfheim will be razed. It might alread be razed by the time Gatts arrive.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

I am a talented writer and I really don't see many other options than for Elfheim - a place of purity, a paradise - to fall.

I would love to see some of your works, Dmitri. And you are right, you Russians are masters at writing. Although I find Shakespeare better than Dostoyevsky (if it can be compared in such crude way). I don't know. Yes Dostoyevsky is great (I am reading Crime & Punishment right now), but as you said, he had 1000 (or so) pages to tell a story and all. Shakespeare, on the other hand, managed to compress so much stuff in something as small as Macbeth.

[MrFelony]

if you want to create a thread of personal writings, as long as they are good , i think it'd be a good idea. not sure how popular they'd be seeing that most people have a short attention span heh. i wouldnt put it past griffith to know where it's at, he does have a seer with him . you can find the hero's journey stuff easily by doing a google search like me

[Istvan]

There are many possibilities. I'd really like to see Elfheim try and stop someone like Zodd along with a large army of lesser apostles. I think Flora was extraordinairely powerful, even among magic users. Just because the place is occupied by casters does not mean that they are all power, and it also does not mean that they know how to use their powers to destroy. If a God's Hand were to show up, Elfheim would be toast. No normal people are prepared to take on Apostles, even IF they are magic users. Flora is most definately not a normal magic user. I just don't see any alternative to Elfheim being razed. To me, it's going to happen, and the razing is essential to the story. How it will happen is up for grabs, but I really think it will occur. I'm not looking at how powerful anyone is, I am assuming that the antagonists have overwhelming power, because really, they do, and they need to for the story to work. If you think that Elfheim can defend itself, then it WOULD be unexpected if the apostles overrun it. It's really not THAT predictable anyways, it's just the next logical step if you look at it from an author's perspective. I am a talented writer and I really don't see many other options than for Elfheim - a place of purity, a paradise - to fall.

I would point out that Schierke is still an apprentice and yet she is able to cast spells that seem powerful enough to crush your average Apostle. Again, I'm not arguing that Elfheim could hold out against a full scale assault by Griffith and the Hawks, I'm just saying that crushing it would be a major (and probably expensive) undertaking, and Griffith has better things to be doing with all that effort (and probably Apostle lives) when he's already in the middle of a major war. Not to mention that he would have to explain to his human allies where a large chunk of his most powerful forces have gone (and telling the truth probably wouldn't work). Last, to say that something is "the next logical step", when it is to the extent that most readers are seeing the possibility (people have been speculating on whether Elfheim would be destroyed when they arrive for a long time) means that it is obvious. I just have enough respect for Miura as a writer to doubt that the future plot of the story will be that blantently obvious.