[14:21] psi29a:
http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/74740
[14:21] psi29a: try this one then
[14:27] *****: back, had a plotting
[14:27] *****: it's like a meeting, but its more tied to the overthrow of the patriach, proletariot, or the ban against using instant messanger, whatever is bugging us
[14:27] *****: ahem, patriarch
[14:31] *****: my impression of the whole NSA thing is that there is a decent legal argument for it, and it had mechanisms for oversight to prevent abuse
[14:32] *****: You can argue how effective the oversight was, or tighten the laws to clearly prevent the president from conducting the NSA program
[14:33] psi29a: The 4th admendment is being violated.
[14:34] *****: Well, unless you qualify that more, it's like saying laws against concealed carry violate the 2nd ammendment
[14:34] psi29a: When the judicial system is being asked by an agency to not permit itself to look into a subject, you know there is something VERY wrong with this government’s actions.
Even if this were really the most effective way of rooting out terrorist actions, the fact that they seem to feel they have to shield themselves from judicial inquiry breaks the accountability of such a system. Are judges and juries too dangerous for our security network now? Are constitutional protections now too restrictive for our intellgence needs?
Do we really need an unnacountable set of parasites feeding on our basic rights in order to protect us from an invisible set of enemies now? If so, does the debate about if we need these things need to be outside public consideration?
[14:35] *****: They certainly have a crossing of purposes, but everything depends on the history of the law...okay let me read your discertation
[14:35] psi29a: i had already written 'bout this @
http://www.mindwerks.net 
[14:37] *****: Let's clarify some. When you say judicial inquiries, do you mean anything outside the lack of warrant? Or are you referring to an active effort by the judiciary to get into the program?
[14:38] psi29a: The active effort by the judiciary to get into the program
[14:38] psi29a: WASHINGTON, May 13 (Reuters) - The U.S. government filed a motion on Saturday to intervene and seek dismissal of a lawsuit by a civil liberties group against AT&T Inc. (T.N: Quote, Profile, Research) over a federal program to monitor U.S. communications.
[14:40] *****: Was this the program that was merely recording calling patterns?
[14:40] psi29a: This has all come about because of our right to privacy, as specified in the 4th admendment. Specidically also the NSA charter which is monitor NON domestic communication.
[14:41] *****: There are different programs, which is why I ask. I have skipped a few days of news reading
[14:41] psi29a: that is all we really know, and they are not telling us any more than that. They have to tell us EVERYTHING.
[14:41] *****: haha
[14:42] psi29a: Hiding a 4th amendment violation behind "state secret" is not right ethically nor morally.
[14:42] *****: Transparency in spy work? Open source Intelligence Community?
[14:42] *****: that sounds a bit ridiculous, even from a pro-civil liberties stand point
[14:43] psi29a: perhaps, but I'm not going to tolerate it any longer.
[14:43] *****: Uh huh
[14:43] *****: Okay, so congress has government oversight of the program...both democrats and republicans
[14:43] *****: They are the ones who gave the president the legal ground to conduct the terrorist surveilance
[14:44] psi29a: certain participants have oversight in congress over FISA, NSA investitagations are outside of of FISA.
[14:44] *****: It's a question of taste, but it seems like giving the people who made the law the ability to see what happens and pull the plug if necessary is a decent setup
[14:44] psi29a: even though FISA rejected fast acting warrents, they where still executed.
[14:45] *****: Fast acting warrents? Must be the day or two I missed, let me give it a google
[14:45] psi29a: there are two problems, NSA is outside of FISA. The executive branch bypassed FISA's rejections.
[14:46] *****: First google result, Therabath Theraffin, fast acting heat therapy home spa
[14:46] psi29a:
http://www.coxwashington.com/hp/content ... 2_COX.html
[14:47] psi29a: "The Bush administration has simply asserted that the president has the power to do whatever he wants," he said.
[14:48] *****: yeah that doesn't sound like a soundbite
[14:49] psi29a: Many legal experts disagree. They offer several different reasons for why Bush decided to bypass the FISA court in issuing the secret order four years ago and continued to resissue it some 33 times.
[14:49] *****: Fine, was hoping we could talk about it, but if we're just going to throw quotes at each other let me go find some
[14:50] psi29a: indeed... In the end, does the executive branch of the authority to bypass FISA?
[14:50] psi29a: a congressional oversight commity?
[14:50] *****: Quick bit: The Bush administration assersts that they have examined the FISA law and complied with what they understand of it
[14:50] *****: like you said, some experts disagree
[14:50] *****: which also means some experts agree
[14:50] psi29a: yes, that is why there are lawsuits flying
[14:50] *****: The point is, its a law. this happens all the time
[14:51] psi29a: because some people (including myself) believe that they are unlawfully acting against my 4th amendment rights.
[14:51] *****: If congress is appalled by it, they need to tighten up the law's language and explicitly forbid the presidents actions
[14:51] *****: but of course they won't
[14:51] psi29a: that is the problem the president (executive branch) holds veto power over congress.
[14:51] *****: no the problem is that it will hurt election year
[14:52] *****: Because most people don't have a big beef if you monitor calls that reach al qaeda operatives overseas
[14:52] psi29a: apparently 66% of united states citizens are retarded.
[14:52] *****: you can debate the theoretical justice of it, but average american sees that as being in their self interest to catch terrorists
[14:52] *****: silly people sure
[14:53] *****: you'd think 3,000 dead would convince them it's nothing to worry about
[14:53] psi29a: it burns me up man, this is something I would fight for.
[14:53] *****: neato, join a cult
[14:53] psi29a: i'll leave that to the scientologists
[14:54] psi29a: right, because you don't have anything you would believe in? *grin*
[14:54] *****: I think they are passing on their sacred lawsuit technology to islamic jihad, which is spiffy
[14:55] *****: : I'm saying you are getting worked up over small beans. Wait until some actual abuses occur then you can be righteous in demanding civil liberties to call al qaeda operatives without big brother checking in
[14:56] *****: : currently all it haves to it's name is foiling some plot in brooklyn or whatever it was
[14:56] *****: : not exactly the low point of the program yet
[14:56] *****: : ahem, "has to it's name"
[15:02] psi29a: i think if no one makes a fuss now, then the abuses will occure incrementally and people seem to be fine with it, over time.
[15:02] psi29a: if no one takes a stand now, who will?
