Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:36 pm

I would have to agree that there was a very strong love that existed between the two. love that could almost border on the line of homosexuality. there are many men out there who enjoy women and sex with them but are also secretly gay, such as the two characters from brokeback mountain. I'm going to throw something back into your guys' faces but you cant say that griffith and guts aren't gay, or haven't had homosexual feelings or thoughts of eachother is a fact. there is some evidence that points to the possibility of homosexual feelings towards eachother.

My opinion is that there was a strong love, and possible homosexual feelings between them, most likely from griffith towards guts. there are several reasons for why muira would leave out homosexual scenese betwen guts and griffith. the best reasoning i think is that i prefer having an undertone of homosexuality. feelings that bubble under the surface and never really have a chance to culminate.

In my opinion, griffith raping casca was an attack towards guts for spurning him. Guts chose his own dream and stole casca away from him, and that hurt him more than the year of torturing probably did. if i remember correctly, femto looked guts straight in his eye most of the rape scene...

the dream sequence seemed to be more important in driving griffith over the edge. he overheard casca tell guts that she was going to take care of griffith instead of leave with him. and if i remember correctly, then griffith was also disabled in that dream. i think that he envisioned his possible future and decided to commit suicide instead. which ultimately led the the eclipse

Post by **Baz** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:16 pm

WTF? So Miura has the gay child rape of Guts by a big black guy, but wouldn't put homosexual scenes with Guts and Griffith in because what? I mean really why? I can’t stand it when people bring this shit up because two people can't possible have a close friendship with out there being sexual motives involved? We all know they have had pedo cock in their arses, so if there was chemistry like that between them why didn't we have hints at it? Because I really don't think I've seen any type of sexual tension, strong love and friendship perhaps but sexual tension? no.

Post by **Khelegond** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:26 pm

Exactly, Baz.

Anyone read Harry Potter? If so (or if you saw the movies) you must know the two characters called Remus Lupin and Sirius Black. Almost EVERY GIRL that I know say that they're a gay couple. You know why?

Most people can't understand some really strong friendship relationship between 2 men. Wanna see examples? Remus and Sirius, Frodo and Sam, and now Griffith and Gatts. I have NOT EVEN one reason to suspect they're gay.

I'm not homophobic, but I'm a bit far from seeing homothings everywhere.

Post by **42ndEndOfTheWorld** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:40 pm

As for Griffith raping Casca for stealing Guts, I have to disagree. Remember Griffith having a dream where she was married with Casca, and had children? I don't think he would have that episode if he was gay or if he loved Guts. Why wouldn't he have a gay dream with Guts instead of Casca? Griffith raping Casca was, to my eyes, merely showing Guts his dominance over both of them, and also showed Guts' helplessness as he watched on. It could also be an act of spite, as Guts was indirectly responsible for Griffith's downfall, and now Griffith will take the only thing Guts had learned to care about - Casca.

When did that happen Eldo? It seems that I do not have that chapter.

Post by **Eldo** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:56 pm

Baz wrote:WTF? So Miura has the gay child rape of Guts by a big black guy, but wouldn't put homosexual scenes with Guts and Griffith in because what? I mean really why? I can’t stand it when people bring this shit up because two people can't possible have a close friendship with out there being sexual motives involved? We all know they have had pedo cock in their arses, so if there was chemistry like that between them why didn't we have hints at it? Because I really don't think I've seen any type of sexual tension, strong love and friendship perhaps but sexual tension? no.

Yep, kind of what I thought. But Frodo and Sam are fags.

I can't remember where exactly Griffith had that dream, but it was in the anime as well. If you're missing a chapter, check your filenames and chapter names to see if they're in order. Should be near the Eclipse part.

Post by **42ndEndOfTheWorld** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:51 pm

Yes, I found it! Although I did not quite get it.

Post by **Istvan** » Wed May 17, 2006 12:35 am

It was a scene where Griffith was imagining the potential future, which involved Caska taking care of him, and him no longer doing anything except exhisting (which is why he tried to commit suicide after imagining it). Also, I entirely agree that Griffith and Guts aren't gay, they're just good friends, and it is possible to be friends with a person and not sexually interested in them, difficult as this seems to be for some people to imagine.

Post by **frosty** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:16 am

Gay might have been too strong a word to used. I meant no sexual connotation when I said that there is a gay connection between the two.

There is a famous singer in Hong Kong that once said "Love transcends race, age and gender"

I think Griffith's love for Guts underlines that. Griffith is a perfectionist seeking an perfect life. Hence the dream to be a King and I think Caska was saved as a child to be groom to be his Queen....that is until he met Guts. He discovered that he has found himself a even better partner. I agree on his childlike naiveness. It was mentioned in the naked water fight scene. In love, he is also naive about his views on his ideals. Guts in my opinion is straight as hell.

About how Griffith was drawn, there is a strong resemblance (especially the hair style) to the village girl that Guts rescued in the Prototype manga. This could easily be Miura's ideal of beautiful. He has just fitted it accordingly to the main characters of Berserk.

I have seen it in loads of manga/anime and has a worry that Berserk might suffer the same fate. There is a high tendecy that the Japanese adopts a open ended, zen like ending to their stories. What's worst is those that suffer the fate of mid termination or abrupt endings. Endings of some anime (eg. Akira, Evangelion, Nausica, Spirited Away) are not exactly your Hollywood style endings where everything is explained and the hero lived happily everafter. This happens to manga too. In some cases, like Yosjiyuki “Buronson” Okamura's Fist of North Star. The mangaka took the story too far (should have ended when the lead character defeated the King). It was extended due to popularity and when there is not enough storyline to support the manga, popularity dwindle and the manga might end rather abruptly or simply just stopped.

For Slamdunk, it was purely a case of the mangaka being totally burnt out. This happens as popular manga are roll out on magazines like Jump on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. This is very demanding on the mangaka and they get burnt out easily.

Having read Miura's King of Wolves. I found the ending has left me high and dry, thirsting for more. I sincerely hope that Berserk do not suffer the same fate. I am also hoping that having a big following in the US might make a difference for Miura when he is scripting the ending for Berserk.

Post by **psi29a** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:34 am

Dictionary.com wrote:adj. gay·er, gay·est
1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
4. Given to social pleasures.
5. Dissolute; licentious.

n.
1. A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.
2. A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

So, now that we cleared up the definition. Care to dig yourself out of your own grave?

Gay is used to describe an act or as an noun in that the person is sexually oriented toward the same sex. At best Griffith and Guts are bi-sexual due to their butt-sex.

Men can care about each other and not be gay. Brotherly love, war-buddies/veterans, and best friends. Having a friend that you would take a bullet for does not make one gay.

So mind if we drop this, admit that your usage of the word gay is flawed and move on?

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:04 am

while i said that there is a possibility that there could be a sexual tension between the two of them, i didnt say that there was. I know that a lot of guys joke around in very homosexual manners but that doesnt mean that there is any sexual tension between the two. I just think that it would add a interesting side to the story. When it comes to berserk, i like it complex and fucked up heh. and just as a side note, when i was little and listened to lord of the rings on tape i thought sam was a girl haha

Post by **Sandman** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:07 pm

I was listening to love line in ANC last time I was there and one caller would stick his finger down his friends pants and penitrate his rectum!!!

but he claimed to not be gay.... OH yeah off topic....

Guts was the bestest friend to Griffith until he went all high and mighty with his ideal friends speech, which made Guts say 'I will help you get to your dream then I will go search for mine so that I can be your true friend...' At least that is what I got from the whole drama scene.

Post by **Baz** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:46 pm

Hmm.. I read it as after that he started to think or better still was inspired to look for his own dream. I think that he realised he had to find one of his own because he couldn't live off Griffith's one. It did all start with what Griffith said but it evolved beyond simply wanting Griffith's respect. I think the bonfire of dreams discussion with Casca show he realised his place wasn’t there and he needed to find where he did belong. Well that’s how I saw it anyway.

Post by **Istvan** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:49 pm

I got much the same thing from the speach. Guts was willing (and wanted) to be Griffith's friend, but he wasn't willing to be nothing but a subordinate or tool, so when he heard what Griffith considered a friend to be (someone with their own dream) he set out to achieve that.

Post by **ZoddsNo1Fan** » Sun May 21, 2006 4:41 pm

psi29a wrote:
Dictionary.com wrote:adj. gay·er, gay·est
1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
4. Given to social pleasures.
5. Dissolute; licentious.

n.
1. A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.
2. A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.
So, now that we cleared up the definition. Care to dig yourself out of your own grave?

Gay is used to describe an act or as an noun in that the person is sexually oriented toward the same sex. At best Griffith and Guts are bi-sexual due to their butt-sex.

Men can care about each other and not be gay. Brotherly love, war-buddies/veterans, and best friends. Having a friend that you would take a bullet for does not make one gay.

So mind if we drop this, admit that your usage of the word gay is flawed and move on?

I totally agree with psi on this matter. Griffeth had stong feelings for Guts and vice-versa. Was it merly a strong friendship type of relationship or more along the lines of brotherly love(which would complicate that fact that we know that Griffeth didn't see Guts as a friend). Perhaps then Griffeth saw Guts more than a friend but as a brother. We see Griffeth risk his life to save Guts time an time again and can conclude that this is what a brother would do for another.

Perhaps when Griffeth was talking to Charrlotte about his comrads he didn't even take his relationship with Guts into that statement. When Guts leaves Griffeth, Griffeth felt as though his only brother had left him. Griffeth got desparate and lost his nerve. He tries to make Guts jealous by raping Caska in front of him. Its sorta like Griffeth had a grudge toward Guts ever since he left.

Post by **Istvan** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:15 pm

I think that Griffith did consider Guts to be a friend. He has telling the truth about how he saw the Hawks, but Guts is different. Remember, Guts didn't choose to join the Hawks, Griffith forced him to, and Guts initially refused, then tried to strike Griffith down when they dueled. So Guts wasn't just subordinating himself to another's dream (which is what kept Griffith from respecting the other Hawks) and was thus able to be Griffith's friend.

Post by **FightClub** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:16 pm

Gutts got raped, doesn't make him gay, but he could quite possibly be, although I've seen nothing that points to it so far, who knows? Griffith is a fucking homo, the guy whored himself out to a dirty old man, regardless of motivation, that's just gay, it's like selling your ass for twinkies in prison, no matter what you call it, it's fucking gay.

Thanks,
Fight

Post by **Libaax** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:30 pm

What a weird discussion.... Is Guts gay or not.... is that really so important

Post by **psi29a** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:38 pm

Libaax wrote:What a weird discussion.... Is Guts gay or not.... is that really so important

Quoted for truth....

So, are we done here?

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:05 am

I think we should discuss this for about more days and then end it./sarcasm

so does anyone want to talk about Guts' dream/goal after the eclipse and how it has changed and then compare it to how Griffith's original dream was distracted from in a similar fashion? i love comparing post-eclipse Guts to pre-Eclipse Griffith.

Post by **Baz** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:45 pm

OK then... there is no correlation between their dreams. THE END?

Post by **Sandman** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:45 pm

Dude I just reread Vol 9 and I realized that Griffith is thinking about Guts while banging Char.... One point for Griffith is a Homo!!!!*

*I know Griffith is not a homosexual... its just if you think about some guy that beat you while your banging some hot chick, a virgin for that matter, there is something wrong with you

Post by **Istvan** » Mon May 22, 2006 10:26 pm

so does anyone want to talk about Guts' dream/goal after the eclipse and how it has changed and then compare it to how Griffith's original dream was distracted from in a similar fashion? i love comparing post-eclipse Guts to pre-Eclipse Griffith.

Can killing Griffith really be considered a dream? A goal, yes; a burning obsession, certainly, but a dream? To me a dream has a lot more to it then just revenge against someone. Maybe that's just me, though.

Post by **Sandman** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:24 am

To sum up Guts's dream it would be to rid the world of the god hand, and evil beings. At least that is what it seems to me

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:24 am

I would say that if someone spent years day and night trying to find some way possible way to do something "impossible" that it would be considered a dream. and i didn't mean that their dreams were similar, just the pathes they walk.

both griffith and guts had a dream very important to them (when i reference guts and griffith i mean post-eclipse guts and pre eclipse griffith). but basically guts and griffith both start off with a dream, guts to kill griffith and griffith to create a kingdom for himself. both seek this dream with all their power, doing anything necessary to accomplish this. even if it meant lying with an old dirty man or with an apostle. both believed that they shouldnt worry about the ants below them while accomplishing their dream, even though both showed signs of concern for the ants below them. though guts was much more cold-hearted than griffith before he was tortured.

as im going through this, it seems that griffith and guts are goign in opposite spirals...anyway

then at somepoint along their pathes a distraction comes along, guts for griffith and casca for guts. see where im going with this? and very similarly both of these distractions had similar effects on each person and at somepoint these "distractions" turn their backs on guts and griffith. i havent really studied it much from this point on but i feel that there is a similar path that each are following.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:33 pm

But Gutts hasn't really "turned his back on" killing Griffith, he's just temporarily postponed it while he tries to make Caska safe. Once that's accomplished, he'll probably return to his Griffith destruction campaign.