On the current status of Berserk and stuff...

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MrFelony
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Post by MrFelony »

he hasn't become bogged down by the kushan invasion any more that he was bogged down by the war when Guts was a member of the Hawks. I think everyone isn't seeing the same things i am. the main point of the story right now isn't healing casca, it's the development of relationships between Guts and the rest of his crew. I've always been a big believer that Berserk is based on a cyclical theme and that, in Berserk, time sorta goes through cycles or pretty much similar things. Im too lazy and its been too long since i've argued it/thought about it. but im just putting this out there for people to think about.

I've always thought that there were very many similarites between guts and griffith and i've sorta loosely seen a similar pattern to their lives, and i think that guts' path is following a similar pattern that Griffith's did. though whether or not Guts experiences the same tragic ending that griffith did is probably up to where fate leads him, or in most other people's mind, whether or not he escapes from fates plan. but basically, right now it feels like guts is going through the same phase he went through when he was first becoming a true member of the hawks and finding his home with them.
Istvan wrote:
2 - The invasion of the Kushan is not taking Gatts away from Griffith, therefore posponing his vengeance. Simply because that is not in his mind now - he's worried about healing Casca. I'm quite sure that, if that was his will, Gatts would be riding against the self-proclaimed 'Neo Band of the Hawk' to kill them all, and slaying Griffith...
Agreed. I mean, it's not as if it would be all that hard for him to find Griffith now if he wanted to. In order for Griffith to achieve his goal the Band of the Hawk has to make itself rather noticable. Now as to how Gutts could manage to kill that many apostles, it will be interesting to see (probably not for a number of years yet, though).
i just wanted to touch on this. the cyclical phase that i see guts being is now, is the same one griffith went through when he first found guts. Griffith had this huge dream of one day becoming king, and then one day this person comes along whose flame burns so bright that it is able to distract him from his life long dream, something no one has ever been able to do. now to relate this to guts. post-eclipse guts has only one thing on his mind: killing griffith. during this time, Griffith and guts both have a lot in common, seeing people as mere tools to accomplish their goals, et cetera. the little child that died for griffith could even be seen as something very similar to the daughter of the priest that gets killed by the skeleton in the first volume i believe. both test their will power to continue on with their dream, and both reaffirm their belief that they cannot care about the ants below them, and that the people around them are there by their own choosing, they aren't forcing them to do anything. (if you think about it, guts' attitude about the companions he has taken on is very similar to how Griffith viewed people). well to get back on topic a little.

So basically Guts and Griffith start their cylces off focused greatly on this dream of theirs, and then this distraction comes. now i haven't really thought about this very deep, and there are a lot of different ways to interpret this, but basically the idea i've chosen is that Griffith becomes distracted by guts, and guts becomes distracted by casca. both act very similarly to them, Griffith found himself doing things to protect guts that he would have never done to protect any other person, and guts finds himself doing much the same for casca. however, i get pretty shaky on any arguement here from actual lack of looking into it cause i've been lazy and without a complete library to actually compare the two. basically the main thing i got out of this is that Guts is probably going to kill casca, but the more the story progress i think it could possibly be farnese he kills...but you never know what is going to happen with Berserk, you can only guess. (and put it into the stupid theories thread :roll: )

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Post by Starnum »

Dude, I think you just look way too deep into this shit to the point of sounding delusional. Yeah, of course the point of the story right now is to show the growth of the main characters both personally and as a crew. That's Miura's stand point. Yet, even as Gatts is gathering companions, his main goal right now is still to get Casca to safety, or possibly healed. Once again, of course you can draw correlations between Gatts and Griffith, they're similar in several ways. However, to then suddenly try to say this leads you to believe Gatts is going to kill Casca or even Farnese just doesn't make any sense. Your logic, much like the way you try to relay it to others, still seems a little too random or scattered. I mean, the only way I could see that happening is due to a horrilbe accident, like what happened to Kenshin. However, that wouldn't be similar to what happen to Griffith at all, which only further dampens your theory. Griffith made his sacrifice by choice. Feel free to believe what you want, but to me it sounds improbable. If I'm wrong, then I'll eat my hat, whatever. It just doesn't seem like a sound deduction to me. *shrugs*
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Post by Istvan »

So basically Guts and Griffith start their cylces off focused greatly on this dream of theirs, and then this distraction comes. now i haven't really thought about this very deep, and there are a lot of different ways to interpret this, but basically the idea i've chosen is that Griffith becomes distracted by guts, and guts becomes distracted by casca. both act very similarly to them, Griffith found himself doing things to protect guts that he would have never done to protect any other person, and guts finds himself doing much the same for casca. however, i get pretty shaky on any arguement here from actual lack of looking into it cause i've been lazy and without a complete library to actually compare the two. basically the main thing i got out of this is that Guts is probably going to kill casca, but the more the story progress i think it could possibly be farnese he kills...but you never know what is going to happen with Berserk, you can only guess. (and put it into the stupid theories thread )
The problem with this theory (well, one of them, there seem to be quite a few but I'll focus on one of them right now) is that the only person Griffith cared about was Gatts. That's what made him so different. On the other hand, it's pretty clear (he himself even said so in his thoughts at one point) that Guts cares about all of his companions. Maybe he only loves Caska, but he considers all of them to be true companions, which is something that not only did Griffith never do, I doubt he could have done. So the entire "Guts is traveling the same path as Griffith" goes right out the window at that point. Also, I can't see, under any circumstance, Gutts deliberately sacrificing his companions to achieve his goal, if for no other reason then because it would be too similiar to what Griffith did to him and his friends. On that grounds, if no other (probably also because they're his friends, but even without this), he would refuse to do it.
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Post by Starnum »

Well, actually, Gatts was probably the only person Griffith could admit to caring about. However, it's obvious that he cared for most of the hawks, otherwise he couldn't have sacrificed them. Soldiers aside, surely he cared for his main crew like Casca, Judeau, Rickert, Pippin, and even Corkus. Although, it was clear that Gatts was like his best friend.
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Post by Istvan »

He cared about them, but only as tools, or possessions. I think he felt sort of as if they belonged to him, or whatever. But he didn't think of any of them (except Gutts) as either friends or true companions, because they willingly chose to submit themselves to him, and to his dream. He can't truly respect anyone who would do that, so they can't be his companion. Gutts is the only one who had to be forced to join, and so he could be. I think he was being entirely truthful with Charlotte when he had that discussion with her about how he considered the Hawks. So while I'll agree that he valued them, I don't think that the way he valued them was as friends, Gutts was the only one who qualified for that.
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Post by Starnum »

I disagree. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's easy to spout off ideal visions of grandeur, and another to actually live up to them. Whether he admitted it or not, I still think Griffith cared for Casca, Judeau, Rickert, and Pippin. I don't know about Corkus, maybe. :P
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Post by Sandman »

I thought he thought of them as tools, until they rescued his sorry ass, then he was like you love me you really love me and shit. Then at the eclipse he almost though about turning the God hand down until he saw Guts. And I think that is when he said fuck'em I need to get back at this guy that made me this way.
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Post by Quest »

griffith only cared about guts because of his fighting abilities. having guts on his side brings a lot of power to him.
everything is a stratgic position even his friends. they would not be around him if he thought they were worthless.
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Post by Sandman »

Griffith.... friends you must be joking (or on coke like someone said earlier :P ) because according to Griffith the only friend he could have is someone with their own dreams, and equal in every way, which is none of the hawks.

Like I said before they are all tool to him to further his dream, but when his dream was almost out of sight they pick him up. So then Griffith then began caring.

God I wish Griffith would have still had his tongue so he could have told Guts how he felt... then Guts would have squashed him like the worm he is/was :twisted:
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Post by Starnum »

Sandman wrote:Griffith.... friends you must be joking (or on coke like someone said earlier :P )
I know you aren't talking to me. If anyone seems like a smack head, it's you.

What is it that you guys don't understand about what I'm saying. Yeah, most people think that he only thought of the Hawks as tools, but I disagree with that. I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want, but it's not like I'm not giving good reasoning for why I think this. If you actually comprehend what I'm saying, then it'll make sense to you. Most of you think he didn't care about them, just because he said so. That's easy to believe, because it's all just surface bullshit. Do you believe everything people say? If I was to stand tall, and with an amazing aura say, "I'm going to become the king of this world," would you believe me? My point is, that those things that he said to Charlotte about how he reserves a friend, those were his ideals. Anyone can have lofty ideals, but it's much harder to live up to them. As the saying goes, it's easier said then done. He obviously felt something for Gatts before he even said that, or before Gatts even tried to leave. Maybe I'm trying to over analyze him, but that's what I believe. As far as the main members of the Hawks, I think he cared for them in some way, more than just being tools, whether he wanted to admit it or not.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, but don't you dare insult my intelligence like I'm some noob just spouting off unfounded bullshit. I choose to believe that Griffith was once a good man, with great ideals, who fell from grace. It's not like I haven't put a lot thought into this.
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Post by Sandman »

Starnum wrote:
Sandman wrote:Griffith.... friends you must be joking (or on coke like someone said earlier :P )
I know you aren't talking to me. If anyone seems like a smack head, it's you.

What is it that you guys don't understand about what I'm saying. Yeah, most people think that he only thought of the Hawks as tools, but I disagree with that. I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want, but it's not like I'm not giving good reasoning for why I think this. If you actually comprehend what I'm saying, then it'll make sense to you. Most of you think he didn't care about them, just because he said so. That's easy to believe, because it's all just surface bullshit. Do you believe everything people say? If I was to stand tall, and with an amazing aura say, "I'm going to become the king of this world," would you believe me? My point is, that those things that he said to Charlotte about how he reserves a friend, those were his ideals. Anyone can have lofty ideals, but it's much harder to live up to them. As the saying goes, it's easier said then done. He obviously felt something for Gatts before he even said that, or before Gatts even tried to leave. Maybe I'm trying to over analyze him, but that's what I believe. As far as the main members of the Hawks, I think he cared for them in some way, more than just being tools, whether he wanted to admit it or not.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, but don't you dare insult my intelligence like I'm some noob just spouting off unfounded bullshit. I choose to believe that Griffith was once a good man, with great ideals, who fell from grace. It's not like I haven't put a lot thought into this.
Ofcourse not Starnum you elven king you... devil dante sayed that to Quest in one of the other forums last night.

And I do understand what you are saying, it could have been that he was trying to impress the princess with his ideas, or that could have been how he really felt... now that I think about it he did go to the Hill of Sword to see if he still had feelings, and that suggests that he at one time had feelings for the Hawks. But he also never called anyone friend, I remeber looking that up long time ago.
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Post by Istvan »

I know you aren't talking to me. If anyone seems like a smack head, it's you.

What is it that you guys don't understand about what I'm saying. Yeah, most people think that he only thought of the Hawks as tools, but I disagree with that. I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want, but it's not like I'm not giving good reasoning for why I think this. If you actually comprehend what I'm saying, then it'll make sense to you. Most of you think he didn't care about them, just because he said so. That's easy to believe, because it's all just surface bullshit. Do you believe everything people say? If I was to stand tall, and with an amazing aura say, "I'm going to become the king of this world," would you believe me? My point is, that those things that he said to Charlotte about how he reserves a friend, those were his ideals. Anyone can have lofty ideals, but it's much harder to live up to them. As the saying goes, it's easier said then done. He obviously felt something for Gatts before he even said that, or before Gatts even tried to leave. Maybe I'm trying to over analyze him, but that's what I believe. As far as the main members of the Hawks, I think he cared for them in some way, more than just being tools, whether he wanted to admit it or not.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, but don't you dare insult my intelligence like I'm some noob just spouting off unfounded bullshit. I choose to believe that Griffith was once a good man, with great ideals, who fell from grace. It's not like I haven't put a lot thought into this.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think that Griffith would say anything he didn't believe. Your example of declaring that you would be king of the world is ironic, because at another time Griffith did stand with an amazing aura and declare that he would be king of a country. And not only did he entirely mean it, I don't think there was a single doubt in his mind that it was true and he would. In the same way, I think he was being entirely truthful about how he saw friendship. Ultimately, I think it comes down to respect. You can't usually be friends with anyone for whom you have no respect at all, and Griffith can't respect those who would willingly support someone else's dream over their own. I agree with you that he had feelings of friendship for Gutts, but Gutts had to be forced to follow Griffith, he didn't choose to do so on his own, and in fact refused when Griffith asked him to. That's why Griffith was able to respect him, and could consider him a friend.

The reason that I believe Griffith was entirely truthful is that I can't think of any time when he lied to any of his follower's or ally's (and Charlotte was clearly one of these) and so I don't think he was here either. As for being unable to live up to ideals, or whatever, to me it seemed that wasn't so much an ideal but the way he saw the world. I'll agree that one could say many bad things about Griffith's character, but I don't see him as a hypocrite. I don't think he would declare he believed something about himself unless it was entirely true. Griffith is definately the sort of person who "practices what they preach" as it were.
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Post by Zman1 »

Sometimes friends will fuck up sometimes and fuck you over if they really need something. if there was any other way for Griffith to get power i believe that he would've attained in that way. but since Griffith was reduced to almost nothing he called on the god's hand for power. kinda like a last resort. He obviously had feelings for his men. He didn't immediately sacrifice them. Remember when it took him a little persuasion by the god's hand.
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Post by Khelegond »

Not to go too deep (late and I'm sleepy), but of course Griffith cared for them. Or he wouldn't be able to sacrifice them. You can't sacrifice someone that is nothing to you...
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Post by Deathbringer »

Khelegond wrote:Not to go too deep (late and I'm sleepy), but of course Griffith cared for them. Or he wouldn't be able to sacrifice them. You can't sacrifice someone that is nothing to you...
Exactly, all of the Hawks there were branded, that has to tell you something.
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Post by Quest »

Khelegond wrote:Not to go too deep (late and I'm sleepy), but of course Griffith cared for them. Or he wouldn't be able to sacrifice them. You can't sacrifice someone that is nothing to you...
hmm yeah true.
its a fact in the manga that you can only sacrifice people you hold dear.
so perhaps griffith did love the hawks.

but did he really love the individual persons in the hawks?
or just the hawk as a whole, as what it represents to him?
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Post by 42ndEndOfTheWorld »

hmm yeah true.
its a fact in the manga that you can only sacrifice people you hold dear.
so perhaps griffith did love the hawks.

but did he really love the individual persons in the hawks?
or just the hawk as a whole, as what it represents to him?
Hey I really like that theory. I think that you nailed it.
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Post by SarahofBorg »

Alright, lemme jump in here and comment a little on what I've read.

Basically, Griffith is a tragic hero, by the official definition. He was good, in fact he was angelic. But his only flaw, and the flaw that makes this story a tragedy, was his ambition. He valued his comrades, he treated them with respect, and they believed he deserved the power and respect he desired. But the fact that he was willing to sacrifice that which he loved and cared most for for the sake of ambition, that alone makes him unworthy of achieving the greatness, power, and respect he desired.
While he has power now, and those who blindly follow and respect him, in no way does he derserve it. He is simply pure evil.
"It is better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" -The Devil (Milton)

He WAS good. He IS evil now. How the mighty have fallen. Honestly, if he wasn't so ambitious and was content with the position he had in the Band of the Hawk everyone would be happy and it would be a boring story.
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Post by Istvan »

I would agree that Griffith valued the hawks, that's why he could sacrifice them, as several people have pointed out. But there's a difference between valuing something, and thinking of it as a friend. To me it seems that Gutts was the only one he truly considered a friend. I think Quest was right, he valued the hawks, and their loyalty to him, but as a whole more then as individuals.
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Post by Baz »

Good's a bit strong for a guy who killed, manipulated and used all the people around him. I agree he wasn't evil as no human is born evil but he wasn't a good guy either, he did things for his own ambitions not for any greater good and never cared about people beyond their usefulness(except Guts of course). I will agree that Griffith wasn't honest to himself about the full extent of his feelings for the inner group of the Hawks but Guts is the only one that made his heart sway from his dream.
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Post by 42ndEndOfTheWorld »

Basically, Griffith is a tragic hero, by the official definition. He was good, in fact he was angelic. But his only flaw, and the flaw that makes this story a tragedy, was his ambition. He valued his comrades, he treated them with respect, and they believed he deserved the power and respect he desired. But the fact that he was willing to sacrifice that which he loved and cared most for for the sake of ambition, that alone makes him unworthy of achieving the greatness, power, and respect he desired.
Well, I am not so sure about that, SarahOfBorg. Griffith wanted his country and was willing to do everything to get it right from the start (even selling his body to an old man). He seemed good before the eclipse because he was not required to do evil in order to get power.

Guts is constantly developing during the manga (he was good but brutal during Golden Age, cynical during Black Swordsman and now he is turning into a good person again), however Griffith is basically the same guy now as he was when we first met him. He probably would not have sacrificed the hawks if he hadn't been in such a bad shape because he loved the hawks as the whole, because he probably wanted to succeed on his own, and because he trusted them more (because he trained them),and not because he was a better man before he was tortured (or before he tasted Godhand power).
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Post by SarahofBorg »

That is sort of what I'm saying. He'd have been perfect if it wasn't for his ambition.
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Post by psi29a »

SarahofBorg wrote:That is sort of what I'm saying. He'd have been perfect if it wasn't for his ambition.
There wouldn't have been a story if it wasn't for his ambition.
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Post by SarahofBorg »

Right, that's why I said "and it would be a boring story."
What's Berserk without tragedy? Just another boring midevil fantasy.
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Post by Fuji Nagase »

and a "boring story" would be far from perfect.

"The wind whispered,and the world began to change."
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