Intelligent Design - Spin Off from Gay Marriage Thread

[Killfile]

The following is the substance of a discussion that started up between myself and raziel in a different thread. For the sake of continuity, I'm spinning it off here.

First of all, I don't feel have much time in looking up a list of things that seem to have been designed. Rather I will just name one thing (I think that will suffice) that is a strong indicator of design, but doesn't deal with evolution exactly. I remember learning about one equation that I think, Kepler came up with that describes how far each orbit of a planet is away from each other. Amazingly, the equation worked out perfectly in determining the orbits. Now, don't tell me this whole universe was merely an accident that started from a Big Bang explosion. Thats bullshit. The equation i believe is Tsquared = Rcubed (the last part I am not sure).

Ok i just found the equation. It's called the harmonic law and is p2 (goldfish like sign) a3 (2 and 3 are squared and cubed respectively). The length of the orbit increases with orbit speed decreasing has a relationship with the amount of time it takes to make a revolution around the sun. This ratio is the same for all of the planets.

I'm not sure how to react to this particular argument. You're suggesting that, because equations elegantly describe the behavior of things in nature - that nature must have been designed?

The equations are elegant because of the simplicity of the forces involved. When you start dealing with masses the size of planets and distances measured in light minutes, every other factor fades into the background. Technically, the orbit of earth is slowed, ever so slightly, if you go to the equator and jump when the sun is on the horizon.

If the elegance of Kepler's equations is evidence for a divine designer, wouldn't the flat out ugliness of fluid dynamics and aerodynamics constitute evidence for the absence of such a designer?

Attacking the argument from another angle - Stephen Hawking once said "the Universe is the way we see it because we are here." Paraphrased, that basically means that we should dismiss most of the "what are the odds" questions because the odds themselves must fall a certain way for life to exist that can question them in the first place.

If that all seemed clear and made sense to you - chances are very good that you didn't understand what I was saying.

Elegance is not evidence of a designer, it's evidence of people who are good at math seeking to explain things.

The existence of life is not evidence of a designer, it's evidence of the ability of this particular corner of the Universe to support life.

[Skullkracker]

The existence of life is not evidence of a designer, it's evidence of the ability of this particular corner of the Universe to support life.

well...it has been discussed somewhere, but given the fact, that this particular part of the universe is just barely good enough to support life ought to give you second thoughts

[Killfile]

Maybe I'm over-reacting. As I've said before, I'm not particularly religious - but that doesn't mean I don't have religious beliefs -- I'm just not preoccupied by matters of faith and I don't lunge at religion as the explanation for everything.

Perhaps because of that, I get annoyed with the Intelligent Design movement and the Born Again movement when it comes to interpreting "signs" as matters of faith.

When Bush says God speaks to him, or when people worship a water stain or a cheese sandwich that resembles the Virgin Mary - I feel that it weakens faith and the importance of faith overall.

Lets assume the Christians/Muslims/Jews are right. This is the LORD GOD we are talking about, the all powerful creator of the Universe. He that laid waste to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in his wrath, he that flooded the entire planet because mankind was unclean.

This is not a two-bit southern church operating on a shoe string budget, this is the lord of all that is. The Great I Am.

A grilled cheese sandwich? A soggy underpass? Please, if God wants to talk to you, he's got a bigger budget than that. Not once, not one single time in the entirety of the Old Testament is God subtle in his communications. Same goes for the New Testament. Christ prances about Judea for three decades, several of them in an active ministry in which he raises the dead, cures the sick, gives sight to the blind, feeds thousands, and turns water into wine.

Today's I.D. movement is no better than the grilled cheese crazies. They are looking for evidence to confirm their religious beliefs. They do this because they don't know enough about their own faith to realize that science does not undermine it.

But looking for evidence of faith in subtlety is not what their own holy texts say. When God was interested in communicating with the Israelites as he lead Moses out of Egypt he manifested as a vortex of smoke towering over the desert in the day, and a pillar of fire reaching to the heavens at night. He did this for FORTY YEARS.

Trying to pin your faith on something as subtle and well documented as the fossil record or the orbits of the planets does disservice to those with real faith and real conviction.

I don't need science to tell me there is a God. Indeed, if Science can address the Divine, the Divine itself ceases to be miraculous and becomes mundane.

Leave science to the experts -- I can assure you that when the oceans turn to blood and the voices of angels ring from the heavens that no one in the evolutionary biology department is going to try to explain it.

[arke]

First of all, I don't feel have much time in looking up a list of things that seem to have been designed. Rather I will just name one thing (I think that will suffice) that is a strong indicator of design, but doesn't deal with evolution exactly. I remember learning about one equation that I think, Kepler came up with that describes how far each orbit of a planet is away from each other. Amazingly, the equation worked out perfectly in determining the orbits. Now, don't tell me this whole universe was merely an accident that started from a Big Bang explosion. Thats bullshit. The equation i believe is Tsquared = Rcubed (the last part I am not sure).

Except, not. This equation is only useful in two-body systems, which works fine for most of the planets, though fails miserably in the Sun-Earth-Luna system. It also fails in explaining behavior in Mercury's precession (something not explained until relativity existed). In addition, the law describes how a planet will "sweep out" a constant area over a constant time frame during its orbit. It has nothing to do with how planets interact (that one is called gravity).

Having finished physics, I think a much better equation to choose would be the simple 0.5 * m * v^2 and equations relating to this (angular, spring, electrical, &c energies). A friend noted that things like this were what made the universe neat.

Leave science to the experts -- I can assure you that when the oceans turn to blood and the voices of angels ring from the heavens that no one in the evolutionary biology department is going to try to explain it.

I remember reading about an interesting phenomenon that turns the ocean red, alas I cannot remember much about it.

[Skullkracker]

When Bush says God speaks to him, or when people worship a water stain or a cheese sandwich that resembles the Virgin Mary - I feel that it weakens faith and the importance of faith overall.

Well, you just gotta live with it: the world is full of idiots, who would do just about everything to get their 15 mimutes of fame. It's the same kind of matter as why aliens always contact extremely unintelligent people. And I don't really want to say anything about Bush. I leave that to experts...Americans.

I don't see however, why this is like the I.D. movement. They try to point out that those who believe only in what science can explain may be short sighted.
my opinion
of course any movement or idea, no matter how much truth it has may just lose it's authenticity if it's put into the wrong form
Anyhow, science has been a gateway to faith for many, who have really looked into natural sciences, and found that this is too much to be a cosnic accident.

I remember reading about an interesting phenomenon that turns the ocean red, alas I cannot remember much about it.

rings a bell
isn't it some stuff of vulcanic origin?

[Quest]

on the elegance of equations and measurements,
my belief is that it is because that is the only way existence is possible. kinda like "i think therefore i am".

the universe underwent and is undergoing a constant evolution where the variables keep changing. equations with variables that keep it unstable are discarded like bad genes and the stable equations remain.

the universe today with us in it is the result of this.
sorta like present day life is the result of the evolution of self-replicating molecules.
the reason why the speed of light is the speed of light is because it is in flux with the rest of the variables. the same reason why most creatures have 2 genders is because it stuck.

on the existence of a designer,
i believe that ultimately, there has to be some higher creator that conceived our reality. the notion that reality just sprang into being on its own without an invisible hand just bugs me. something or someone must have had thrown the dice.
probably, the concept of time and space did not exist prior to the conception of our reality.

on the red sea thingy,
it is known as 'red tide' i believe. and it is biological. some kinda bacteria or microbe in the ocean.

=)

[psi29a]

Here is some more ID fuel!

[Libaax]

I saw a doc last week about ID and i thought they had a good theory to be able to jugde Darwin but thier so called theories was so stupid that any scienctist could kill it and one did it on the tv program.



Only in america could they be taken serious....