Berserk Chapter: 269

Post by **Nonni** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:14 pm

Even though Slann might have a thing for Gutts, she's just as f*cked up as any of those God Hands members.
But on the same time, something extravagant might happen to the members of God Hand resulting in (I dno) infighting and so on.

Even though I highly doubt that =)

Post by **Eldo** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:30 pm

The theory that the God Hand may turn against each other is quite interesting. I personally don't think that will happen, since none of them wants anything to do with each other, and they carry on with their own agendas when they're not performing the ceremony with the behelits.

As for Slann, I don't think she would in any way help Guts against the other God Hand members. She likes to tease Guts, sure, but I don't think she would go anything beyond that, to the point where she plans the demise of her fellow members.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:33 pm

Slan would only help Guts if she gained from it. For that to be the case she must gain something by getting rid of the other god hands.

I mean they are all gods, its not like Highlander that she will get thier powers if she kill them.

Post by **Devil_Dante** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:43 pm

I wonder if Griffith and Slan had sex in the abyss.....

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:19 pm

If she likes men like Guts who die trying i dont think she would go near a wuss

Post by **raziel** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:05 pm

Eldo wrote: Skullknight has mentioned how Guts opposed fate and how he lived outside of it.

I know Skullknight says this, but he also seems to say otherwise right after the eclipse. When he gets Casca and Guts out of the vortex where the eclipse was, he goes on and on about how fate has favored them and that their place to die wasn't there.

Post by **Istvan** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 pm

I don't see any real chance of the God's Hand fighting. I mean, what would they have to gain from doing so? All of them are extremely powerful, so why would they fight another being of simialar power without expecting a major gain from it? Since they pretty much leave each other alone (except during eclipses, or when summoned by Apostles) I don't see what advantage they could hope to gain. And Slann may be interested/amused by Gutts, but I don't see her turning against the other apostles for him.

Post by **SONGSAN** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:56 am

Istvan wrote:I don't see any real chance of the God's Hand fighting. I mean, what would they have to gain from doing so?

On a contrary, that's what the story led me to believe right now.

Hear me out:

The greatest strategist in Berserk, Griffith, is doing too many things that don't make sense. For instance, are we to believe he came back to this world to pursue his goal of establishing his own kingdom? A kigdom was once given by someone in order to became a GH, remember? So, no, that's not what he's up to.

Putting the mighty Griffith on one side of the showdown, who would be his worthy opponents? Guts and friends? Again, no, not a single army in this entire world is, be it human or apostle. Only other GHs or the even more superior astrals can match him.

Do those from the world beyond show any interest in entering this world? Yes, Slann did deliberately pay a visit. Secret portals like that qliphote did open.

My wildest guess:
Griffith did all this on purpose, the showdown will be between him and those from the astral world. Guts is, of course, his main man in this war. What he did to Guts was planned, to lead him to the path of living god warrior. What happened to Casca was also planned, to save her life and give Griffith a portal to come back.

After the showdown, all prophecies come true. Griffith is really the Hawk of Light that come to the world's rescue.

That would be quite a way to end it.

BTW, the laid back Serpico could be jerked into a great warrior once Farnaze got slained by some demon enemy. Anyone in on this?

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:16 am

A kigdom was once given by someone in order to became a GH, remember?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you refering to Gaiseric? Are you trying to say that a entire kingdom was sacrificed?

I do think that if the other God Hand has expressed interest in materialising in the physical plane, they would have done so many years ago, before Griffith's ascension to the God Hand. Why now, at Griffith's time, and not before? The other God Hand members doesn't care much for Griffith at this stage, as Slann mentioned, and she only materialised to taunt and tease Guts, like a new toy. It's true nothing can stand against the neo Band of the Hawks, but we'll just have to see what other force that can properly oppose them that are not introduced in the plot yet.

I don't know, the concept with Griffith training Guts to put him in the path of the warrior sounds so cliche and wild. What's the point of that? Don't forget, Griffith had never heard in detail about what the God Hand do (and thus had no reason to oppose them when he joined), and he sacrificed his entire army so he could continue his dream. I don't see any noble aspects in any of the things he did.

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:45 am

I like Songsans theory that would be friekin awesome. Also, what if Guts succumbs to the armor and joins Griffith! muahahaha that would be so messed up...but I would enjoy it. Make different arcs/endings that would be cool.

Anyway, I admire Griffith for sacrificing the Hawks for his dream. It just shows how much his dream meant to him. But of course looking at it from Guts' eyes...well eye you will hate and despise him. Thats why you have to look at it from each characters viewpoint.

P.S. It's nice to come back after so long and see all the threads lead back to the same shit. ^_^

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:03 pm

raziel wrote:
Eldo wrote: Skullknight has mentioned how Guts opposed fate and how he lived outside of it.
I know Skullknight says this, but he also seems to say otherwise right after the eclipse. When he gets Casca and Guts out of the vortex where the eclipse was, he goes on and on about how fate has favored them and that their place to die wasn't there.

Hm, I think that Guts can oppose fate, but he lives by it. Much like like SK's earlier rant about the moon shadow on the water, and how Guts is the fish swimming in it - he is brought along by the currents of the water, just like fate, yet he could also oppose the current by swimming against it. Well, I hope that analogy makes sense.

Post by **Khelegond** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:28 pm

TheDrizzit wrote:Anyway, I admire Griffith for sacrificing the Hawks for his dream. It just shows how much his dream meant to him. But of course looking at it from Guts' eyes...well eye you will hate and despise him. Thats why you have to look at it from each characters viewpoint.

What??? Man, there's no viewpoint that make Griffith's sacrifice right. He's not the classic 'I am evil' kind of villain, but HE IS A VILLAIN. He sacrificed ALL HIS MEN to his dream. Yeah, it's a nice dream, and yeah, he pursue his goals. But they're all burning in hell now. Not only that, but he raped Casca.

Don't know about you, but that is evil to me.

Post by **Libaax** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:32 pm

Eldo wrote:
raziel wrote:
Eldo wrote: Skullknight has mentioned how Guts opposed fate and how he lived outside of it.
I know Skullknight says this, but he also seems to say otherwise right after the eclipse. When he gets Casca and Guts out of the vortex where the eclipse was, he goes on and on about how fate has favored them and that their place to die wasn't there.
Hm, I think that Guts can oppose fate, but he lives by it. Much like like SK's earlier rant about the moon shadow on the water, and how Guts is the fish swimming in it - he is brought along by the currents of the water, just like fate, yet he could also oppose the current by swimming against it. Well, I hope that analogy makes sense.

That analogy discribes Guts perfectly.

I wish i had come up with it.

Post by **MournfulWoods** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:10 pm

This story isn't about the God Hands, it's about Gut's Struggle.I don't see the story going the way Songsan describes it.

and what sort of a theory is that ? Griffith would be training Gut by killing all his friends and raping Casca ? yeah right ...

Post by **paulino** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:45 pm

@songsan: Guts cant be a godwarrior since he is a mortal. What would he be useful for Griffith if he will be limited by aging? It's true that he is crazily strong now since it is his prime years, but ...... all humans are bound to become weaker and weaker once they hit a certain age. Thus your "wild guess" is wrong. Also, Griffith is not noble at all. Since he was human, he carried out a lot of dirty plan to make his assension in the court, so hes an evil man since the start. (and who the hell will let himself being raped by a pedophile for money?!!!??!!!!!!!!!)

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:26 pm

There are a lot of potential problems with Songsan's theory, but I'm not actually sure that aging is one of them. I tend to think (and SK seems to support) that the brand stops the aging process. I talked about this earlier, in more detail, but basically I don't think those who are branded are given any chance of an easy/peaceful death (such as old age).

As for Griffith going after the kingdom still, I don't see anything unusual in that. There are several reasons for this, but basically, Griffith is entirely shaped by his dream. First, remember his conversation with Charlotte, where he described what a dream was to him? Then look at the vision he was shown by the God's Hand in the Abyss that pointed out how he had been going for his dream all along by sacrificing others. I don't see anything unusual (for him) in his decision to sacrifice the Hawks. That was the only way left to him to continue his dream, and he's made it clear throughout that while he may value the Hawks, at root they are just a tool to accomplish his dream with. So not only do I not find his choice to come to the "real world" and establish a kingdom suspicious or odd, I would have been shocked and amazed had he made any other choice. Because then he would no longer have been Griffith. There would be litterally nothing left of who and what he used to be.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:23 am

I have to say that I could understand Griffith's decision to sacrifice the hawks, after losing everything physically and mentally - but that doesn't mean he's right though. I doubt that he would sacrifice the hawks if he had escaped the torture before any major harm has been inflicted to him physically, and became rebels with Casca and the rest of them. In a way, it seems he was forced to use the behelit, as all the events leading up to the ceremony was planned by Idea. But it certainly was characteristic of Griffith to use it though, under the extremes of losing everything. He slept with a pedophile to fund his campaign, he send Guts to kill the boy next in line, and he killed the queen. what else wouldn't he do?

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:29 pm

Wow....I never thought of it like Griffith meant for Guts to kill that kid. Guts thought he did it on accident and Griffith just smiled....woah...sneaky ass Griffith ^_^

Post by **malice** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:19 pm

I don't think he intended for Guts to kill the kid. However, since the kid was killed, Griffith had one less contender for the throne in his way, so I assume he saw that as a good thing and a reason to smile. (It makes him a callous opportunist, but not evil IMO)

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:24 pm

I thought it was anticipated he kill the kid in the process of the assasination, at least that's how I view it. It might just be purely concidential but helped Griffith nonetheless anyway.

Post by **Istvan** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:49 pm

I have to say that I could understand Griffith's decision to sacrifice the hawks, after losing everything physically and mentally - but that doesn't mean he's right though. I doubt that he would sacrifice the hawks if he had escaped the torture before any major harm has been inflicted to him physically, and became rebels with Casca and the rest of them. In a way, it seems he was forced to use the behelit, as all the events leading up to the ceremony was planned by Idea. But it certainly was characteristic of Griffith to use it though, under the extremes of losing everything. He slept with a pedophile to fund his campaign, he send Guts to kill the boy next in line, and he killed the queen. what else wouldn't he do?

I agree that if he had escaped the torture he never would have accepted the offer of the God's Hand. I think that he would have wanted to accomplish his dream on his own, if he could. The reason he accepted the offer (and sacrificed the Hawks) was because there was absolutely no other way for him to continue his dream anymore. That, or abandoning his dream, were the only choices left to him, and for Griffith abandoning the dream wasn't an option. You can see this clearly when right before the eclipse he imagines such a life (living with Caska taking care of him) and promptly tries to commit suicide. For Griffith, without the dream there's no point to life.

As to the boy, I don't think Griffith was counting on it. He may have been pleased that the boy died, but if he had really been counting on Guts killing him, he'd have told Guts to kill him. I'm almost certain that Guts would have done it, if asked. But if you notice, the only people Griffith assassinates are the ones who directly oppose him, not the ones who are inconvienent. I saw the boy's death as an accident (granted, a very lucky one from Griffith's perspective).

Post by **Quest** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:25 am

i think griffith would have sacrificed his men to achieve his dream regardless of whether he was wholly-crippled or not.
it is in his nature to use anyone as a stepping stone to his dream.

Post by **SONGSAN** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:35 pm

@Quest: That seems true, but...

Isn't it also possible that for Griffith, the sacrifice was not a choice? At least not a straight yes or no decision as it looked. He knew he was destined to use the red behelith. Right after the torture begun, he was visited by those spirits who kissed his hand calling him their prince, that, of course, was not for the leader of the BOH but the future God Hand. Whether or not there were more visits and more revelations happened/ more information passed on to him there, we don't have a clue. Miura seems to leave this period of time blank.... could it be intentional?

Think I better begin another thread to discuss all this. In a few days time perhaps.

Cheers

Post by **Istvan** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:16 am

i think griffith would have sacrificed his men to achieve his dream regardless of whether he was wholly-crippled or not.
it is in his nature to use anyone as a stepping stone to his dream.

I agree he uses others as a stepping stone, I just think that normally Griffith would have refused the offer because he would have wanted to achieve his dream himself. Accepting the offer of the God's Hand was essentially admitting that he was unable to accomplish his own dream. If there'd been any possibility that he still could, I think he'd of refused.

Post by **Chaos_Wanderer** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:49 am

I got thinking about Griffith's decision and what would have happened if he had NOT sacrificed the Band of the Hawks. It doesn't appear that a normal army can hold its own against the Demon Emperor's warriors. Even the 'True' band of the hawk would have difficulties. The only warriors who would have been able to go One-on-one were probably Guts, Pippin, and Griffith. and maybe Judo from a distance.

Now that being said, could Griffiths betrayal to the True Hawks, and acquisition of the new Hawks, be Idea's method of using a Necessary Evil to keep the balance of Power? Then if Gut is a "free will" Fish swimming in a river of Fate, is ENCOURAGED by fate to keep Griffith from total power once his task is done.
....heh, got a little carried away there at the end.