Stop the Whining: Bloated China trade surplus fuels US anger

[vtwahoo]

There are people who cannot, for varying reasons, work.

The only excuse for being broke is being dead or in jail. Anything else is an example of someone not stepping up to life's challenges.

That borders, quite fundamentally, on inhuman...even putting aside the fact that most Americans are not only broke but in debt up to their eyeballs.

(remember to those of you out there enthusiastic about the war in Iraq---a lot of our military families qualify for public assistance).

Military service is alot like being in jail at times. This would qualify as a legitimate need to assist the families of those soldiers.

Oh...so the only two excuses aren't being dead or in jail...being in the military also counts. Just to shore up any further confusion, can you please list for me all of the OTHER circumstances that are "like being in jail" or "like being dead"?

However, I absolutely refuse to pay the mother of my child for herchild rearing work, in addition to: having the a/c where she wants it, having to purchase 400 cable channels I have never used, going wherever she wants to eat, doing the activities she wants to do, and having her play Resident Evil 4 so much that I can't advance anymore in Star Ocean. The point I was so crassly getting at, in most healthy homes, don't the women recieve a non economic compensation?

How very, very sad that must be for you...to not be able to progress in Star Ocean may, in fact, qualify as spousal abuse in some states.

And I'm not talking about women receiving economic compensation from their spouses...I'm talking about women receiving economic compensation from the state in the form of child care, food and nutrition subsidies, paid maternity leave (for both parents should they so choose), guaranteed health care (for both mother and child), and preschool education. Raising a child is a full time job and yet is necessary for the continuation of any society. Therefore, society should pay part of the bill. Think for a moment about families that aren't as "healthy" as your own...about children who are left alone becuase both parents have to work and cannot afford child care, about children who go withhout health care becuase their parents are among the millions who do not receive bennefits from their employers and because the state medicaid fund has run out, about children who don't receive the advantages of preschool becuase their parents cannot afford it.

There are a lot of people out there who are working really hard to make ends meet. Those who have children are doing a job and should be compensated. For most families air conditioning, dining out, cable television, and video games aren't even on their radar screen. Look, for a moment, at the real world and see how different it is from your "healthy" life.

[Killfile]

The only excuse for being broke is being dead or in jail. Anything else is an example of someone not stepping up to life's challenges.

Ok - let's run with that. We'll take a friend of mine who, for a variety of reasons, has been unable to attend college, married and now in the process of getting a divorce, and has two kids. She's fought for everything she's got and continues to fight - but this is the reality she lives with.

Maximum Monthly Income: $5.25 x 40 hours/week x 4 weeks = $840

Food for her and two children: $200
Rent for her and two children: $550
Power: $50
Transportation (for necessities): $30
Total: $830

So that leaves her $10 a month for any additional expenses that might pop up -- from health emergencies (needless to say she can't afford health insurance) to court costs related to her abusive ex-husband.

She comes from a background where college wasn't an option because her mother and father weren't going to pay for it, and for a variety of reasons scholarships were impossible. She got married young in an attempt to solidify her financial future and ended up with an abusive asshole who knocked her up twice and knocked her out god know how many times.

What can she do? She's essentially destitute, the system has failed her, and without the capability to save any money (without either being homeless or letting her children starve) she is not going to be able to pay her way through any training or education to allow her employment as skilled labor.

I've known this girl since she was 13 - and I'm hard pressed to come up with any specific moment in her life where this is "her fault." Some people get dealt bad hands -- isn't it the role of a civilized society to take care of its poor and needy.

Not to get preachy -- but Jesus Christ once said "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." I'm not a religious person, but those are words to live by. People who point to the “Christian religious tradition” upon which the United States was supposedly founded seem to often forget

[Sortep]

The Star Ocean comment was mainly in jest. I actually agree with you and Killfile's politics, however, I also feel that the we need less government. Not the Republican Style mind you. We need less beaurocratic institutions, a streamlined healthcare system for everyone, and I'm not entirely against the government funding childcare. By lifting burdens that restrict people from economic success, we build a strong foundation for success. I only meant to say with that comment, was that regardless of what a government does there still comes a degree of personal fortitude.

The soldier is a double standard, main reason being I am ex army. My brother and I have both seen quite a bit overseas. That is a wrecking ball no matter how it hits a family. I have too soft a heart towards those who serve our country and instead their lives are nothing more than special interest pawns.

In regards to spousal compensation, parents not of the privileged class, should not have to pay for daycare, preschools, school, or health care. I consider those inalienable rights that we as a people tend not to recieve.

In regards to "ends meat." I came from the gutter and made my way. I'm not any smarter, a greater than anyone who didn't make it. The only thing that made me different was that, more than anything, I wanted out. So I did whatever I could to further my goals. Some people are not in a position to do so, or not willing to make that kind of sacrifice. Even now I'm no where near where I want to be. But that comes with work, and belief.

Killfile, in regards to your friend, everyone gets dealt a hand of cards. We do what we can with what we have. Your friend may not have made bad decisions, but did she take every opportunity in front of her? There are various grants, assistance programs, and other social services designed for single working mothers to go to school and still be able to provide for their children?

The Christ quote is 100% right on the money. The only reason I've been able to make the modest progress I have is due to karma, luck, and stubborness.

We don't do enough for other people and it's destroying our country. My whole neighborhood is an example of people who may not have had much if we all didn't help one another. If another neighborhoods had a similiar approach, alot of problems our society's suffer from wouldn't exist.

Anyhow, in the end, life is only what we take from our experiences. And yes in some ways I am very inhuman and unforgiving. So I definately have alot of bettering to do, I don't want to raise a fucked up kid. Or at least raise one alot less fucked up than dad.

[psi29a]

My mother managed to raise 2 sons after her divorce( ages 4 & 14 ), we lived below the accepted poverty line. I've personally had dinners consiting of nothing more than crackers and katchup.

Granted, she had parents who took care of us when she was working. It took several years and court action to make my father pay 'acceptable minimal' child support.

However, she did re-marry and through my step-father's added income and effection towards us managed to get me graduated through college (without loans, grants, or offers), finance a car, and low and behold married. My brother joined the marines, rotated out after his 4 and also married.

We went from poor lower class to high middle class. It can be done, I'm personally tired of what I see personally going on around me and the belly aching. I have sympothy, but you have to want it and I encourage everyone to want 'it'.

Sad thing is, to everyone that these words could benefit or help, they don't have access to the Internet. So words like these are almost wasted except to point out that it can be done.

I know a family that moved from VA to PA just so that she could divorce her husband, because in VA, the wife can't divorce the husband without the husband's consent which is bullshit imho. She took the grants offered to a single mother, is going to college to get her 4 year BA and is raising 2 children. (She is also former Army). I wish her the best of luck and from time to time, I hear from her.

Again, take the cards given you and make the best choices possible. It can be done.

[panasonic]

the only problem with these social programs are that often they are abused by people that dont need the help, thus impeding those that need it from getting it. i live in a decent neighboorhood(middle to upper) and across the street is government housing(for some reason they built alot in good areas). some of these people are working hard so that one day thay can afford their own house, however, there r some people that are driving, lexus's and other relatively expensive cars that live there. that, to me, is clear abuse of the system. if one can afford expensive luxuries, then they shouldnt be taking up government housing spaces that others really need. my family immigrated to toronto with 80 grand to start a new life. in 10 yrs we've managed to pay off the mortgage, we own a company now etc etc. i agree w/ sortep that endurance and hard work can make one succeed, and im often very unsympathetic to those that whine and complain about their lives. hard work pays off, and society often doesnt give hard workers their due because of abuse of the system

[Killfile]

I can almost promise you that if someone is living in government subsided housing and driving a Lexus (that's an $80,000 car for the most part) - they're selling drugs or engaging in some other illegal activity to pay the bills. Living in the projects isn't a lifestyle choice then - it's a business choice. That opens up the "drug war" can of worms, which is another topic for another thread.

I'm all for busting people who abuse the system. Show me the so called "welfare mom" who's always driving a new car, never works, and lives in the ritzy section of town and I'll show you someone who's already in violation of existing fraud laws.

Just as these "welfare abusers" steal from the social safety net, the Enron fraudsters stole from corporations -- does that mean we should eliminate incorporation from the American legal system?

Look - I'm not saying that we should make sure that everyone in the country is driving a brand new Audi, buy them a $500,000 house and send their kids to private school. What I am saying is that, in the most powerful and wealthiest country on Earth, there is no excuse for a child going hungry, a family without health care, or a homeless veteran. Sure - the system may be abused, but isn't it better to be able to use our power and wealth to virtually eliminate poverty in our nation?

There is this strange conception that guaranteeing everyone humane living conditions equates to communism, or the elimination of wealth in America. That's crap. I'm talking about making sure that people have the opportunity to take risks and make something of themselves without having to chance their family skirting the edge of starvation.... or worse.

Everyone has "hard knocks" stories - some end well, some don't. Psi's family teetered on the edge of financially destitute; others survive the terminal illness of a child or the near destruction of a marriage. The stories that end well are inspiring and powerful because we know they didn't have to end that way.

Psi's family could have collapsed under the weight of financial ruin. Mine could have suffered economic collapse after my cancer diagnosis. Why is it ok that, when the families in this country are confronted by these disasters, there exists the possibility of catastrophic collapse? Why do we tolerate this?

To those that are against these so-called "hand out" programs I ask you this. When abuse of gun-control laws threatens lives the Right says "enforce the laws on the books;" but when people abuse our social safety nets, the Right's response is to scrap the whole program. What's the difference? Why is abuse that threatens lives less worrisome than abuse that threatens your pocketbook?

[Sortep]

I don't think anyone has mentioned scrapping programs. On the contrary if it weren't for these programs alot of people wouldn't survive. There are abuses as with any systems. This is a fact of life and will always be a fact of life. I feel that every citizen of the united states should have no matter what: healthcare, quality education, a home, and a livelihood. Currently our system borders on broken. That being said, where one comes from in the socio-economic tree shouldn't be where they stay. Though this really does depend entirely on them. IF someone wants to rise above their circumstances and are willing to do whatever is neccesary, then they shall. Point blank if someone wants to and doesn't, there is something not being done that could/should be done but isn't.

Typical Neo-Cons feel that we shouldn't coddle people nor should we give them the tools to succeed. The far left feel that we should give people the tools and make them feel good about themselves (a little faceous I know). I

Every human is entitled access to the tools and education needed. But no human being has the right to blame their existance on circumstance alone. I don't want any kid to have to come home and ask their mom "why the really dirty smelly people behind the alley were holding lighters under a peice of foil and sticking their faces in the smoke" the way I did.

I was lucky and took every opportunity that crossed my path (and fucked a few up too) some were good some were bad. But the fact remains that no one gave me what I have today (which isn't all that much on the grand scale of things).

If a fuck up ex PCP user with a shitty history can do it. The no one has any excuse as to why they're not progressing. There is ALWAYS something that can be done, and legally too.

I found the army and made my escape as did my brother. It took me out of the bad element and put me back on track. Military isn't for everybody, but there is always SOMETHING that can be done.

[vtwahoo]

I do think that we're ignoring here the overwhelming structural obstacles of intergenerational poverty. There are reasons why people born in poverty tend never to escape. (This is true of both individuals and entire economies as it turns out). Ruby Payne has done GREAT research on this topic which I'll hit on asap.

[Killfile]

I think you're right, if someone is willing to do ANYTHING to progress up the ladder then you're right, very little can hold them back.

That said, ANYTHING is a pretty big field. This friend of mine could, for example, sell heroin. She'd pull in a much higher income and, because she's a pretty savy individual, probably manage to bring herself up several economic levels.

That said, we have laws to prevent some of these things. She chooses not to exploit the black market because doing so would put her kids at risk. Other opportunities (some legal some not) are also closed to her because of that fundamental decision.

Single mothers are the strongest example, but they're also the most trite.

Fundamentally the absence of a working fall back for those that fail at an endeavor, particularly at the lowest levels of the economic ladder, prevents people from climbing out of poverty. This is what (I think) vtwahoo is referring to when she talks about "structural poverty." Societal and governmental structures make it almost impossible for people at the lowest rungs of the ladder to take the risks necessary to climb.

Most of the programs you've highlighted would go a long way to solving these problems. I do, however, strongly disagree with your characterization of the left and its views on these programs. I really can't think of any examples where Leftists pushed for much beyond that minimum safety net to make sure that those that might fail aren't crushed by the system.

I would also go so far as to venture that, when individual leftists put forward excessive proposals, that those proposals were not favored by American progressives on the whole.

As I said before, I don't think that "welfare mothers" should be living in a 24 room mansion and driving a Lexus, but they, and everyone else, should be provided with clean and safe housing of reasonable size and have access to subsidized public transportation, health care, etc.

[Quest]

on handouts and minimum wages,
my understanding is that this will in the longrun lead back to square one.
the crux is that of supply and demand: too many people and too few goods/services/resources to support them. yes there is an abundance of money in the system but its worthless paper.

giving out more worthless paper is not going to solve anything. in the end with the same amount of goods/services/resources in the system and more money circulating, the result is just inflation.

unless handing out more money will cause your population to be more entrepreneural and result in an increase in goods/services/resources.
this is a structural problem.

on structural poverty and intergenerational poverty,
the aim here is not ensuring everyone gets to the finish line at the same time but ensuring everyone sets off with an equal footing. your inherited genes or money may give you a faster speed than the rest. that is your inherent advantage and no one should purposely stifle it. it is a fact that those that are ahead tend to stay ahead.

is it their obligation to curb their own progress and run back to help those that are inherently slower? if everyone is wealthy, who will want to wait on the tables or build your houses or scrub the toilets?

structural poverty i see it as a necessary evil. those that managed to fight out of the cycle, and those that do nothing deserve what they get. deserve what they get. those that tried and failed ought to fight harder.

=)

[MrFelony]

American corporations aren't against it at all. You think Walmart is upset? Corporations may have their executive offices in a given country, but they are by no means the citizens of any country. The trans-national corporation has no national algeiance.

Ford and GM are annoyed with foreign car production - but that's more because moving a car factory to another country is expensive. Tommy Hillfinger and Abercrombie and Fitch allready take advantage of CHEEP foreign labor - as do major US food companies like Phillip Morris (or whatever they're called these days).

did catch a spelling error from the mighty [K]illfile[,] did not?

Edit: I fixed your caps and comma usage for you. -- Killfile

[psi29a]

American corporations aren't against it at all. You think Walmart is upset? Corporations may have their executive offices in a given country, but they are by no means the citizens of any country. The trans-national corporation has no national algeiance.

Ford and GM are annoyed with foreign car production - but that's more because moving a car factory to another country is expensive. Tommy Hillfinger and Abercrombie and Fitch allready take advantage of CHEEP foreign labor - as do major US food companies like Phillip Morris (or whatever they're called these days).

i did catch a spelling error from the mighty killfile did i not?

No one is perfect, and you MrFelony add nothing to the conversation.

[Sortep]

those that managed to fight out of the cycle, and those that do nothing deserve what they get. those that tried and failed ought to fight harder.

Well thats the whole crux of it right there. When is it entirely up to a person and when is the government stepping in too much? This has been/will be debated forever until the aliens come to harvest us. People do focus alot on the system and expect the system to do things. I will quote Berserk here when I says "If you can't use your hands, what do you have?" It's about not only fixing the system but also getting people off their asses. If both of these things can be even marginally accomplished, we'll have eliminated half of the poverty in our country.

[MrFelony]

Haha thank you Killfile . And I add nothing because I can't. I merely take in the knowledge others have about a topic that I am unfamiliar with . Though a commendation goes out for the discussion .