CH 262

[Artezul]

Miura's been more consistent as of late, I hope he keeps it up.

[Sandman]

I hope this break gives him a chance to think of where he is going with the current situation. I think that the next chapter is going to be the up side of the climatix hill that is story telling.

[Skullkracker]

by the way do berserkers even loose their hunger and thirst?

only if they play WoW...

[MrFelony]

actually if she were to die, i think guts would probably end up dying or w.e he has to do to follow SK's path

[Necromancer]

by the way do berserkers even loose their hunger and thirst?

only if they play WoW...

All MMO playing koreans are potential berserkers?

[kasgarinn]

if(isAlive(Caska)=FALSE; gutts goes mad and dies in a few days; story continues)

On another note, the more I think about it, the more I see the whole thing from griffiths point of view.. he made this incredible investment into becoming the ruler, loses it over a momentary lapse of bad judgement (which reveals that he'd never get to marry the girl anyway and his quest would have been alot longer and futile in the end), falls incredibly far from his goal because of that lapse (gets torn to bits so he's unable to do anything), sees a chance to gain all he lost (through sacrificing his dear friends and comrades, who all have vowed their life to his anyway), and it will only mean the loss of the remainder of the band, a few good men who sacrifice them for the greater good (as the country will only flourish and do extremely well under griffith, I have no doubts about that).

the way griffith has handled himself and his leadership of both the old troops and the new should be a mark that griffith did choose the wiser road for the good of the whole country, not just himself.

Think of it this way, griffith is the one man who can change the world to the betterment of it, to let him die because of a silly mistake (and the sacrifice he had to make to get back on track) is just ridiculous, the lives of his men would then truly have been in vain.

That's also why I like berserk.. in the end, if gutts gets his revenge on griffith, he'll be in the wrong, he'll be the one who kills for his own egotistical purpose and not for the greater good, and perhaps deep down, underneath it all, he knows it.

I also think the god-hand isn't inherently evil.. but that's another argument entirely..

K.

[ucrzymofo87]

could it be? griffith is the good guy?

[Loeviz]

Hell no, just think about it, The Apostles loves to eat human flesh (I think we´ve discussed this once before)... And we don´t even know when the "Festival of Flesh" begins once Griffith´s been crowned

[Sandman]

...which reveals that he'd never get to marry the girl anyway and his quest would have been alot longer and futile in the end...

Well at least not in his situation at the end of the war, but eventually they will get married I bet you.

...through sacrificing his dear friends and comrades, who all have vowed their life to his anyway...

One: he didnt consider any of them his friends, he said that they were his loyal soldiers. Two: they said they would give their lives to save his, he was alive if he could have let his dream go there would have been a lot people who could have lived their lives out to the fullest.

And there is no way that Griffith will be a good king, he maybe better then Ganshuka, but people will still call it the dark ages. He was apostles in every town eating women and kids all day. To me that is not a good ruler.

[MrFelony]

actually kasgarinn got it pretty much right there. all the soldiers who were following him were willing and agreed to sacrifice their lives towards the cause of griffith's dream. as per their agreeement, he could sacrifice their lives. and sacrificing his companions is like using the atomic bombs on japan. you choose the most logical path towards your destination and thats what griffith did. and he did have a friend in there, guts. now, though this has been discussed already (i dont mind discussing it again), griffith will probably be a great king at first, the ideal one. but at some point he is going to switch on them.

[Sandman]

On the friend thing with Guts, I guess it is weather you belief that Griffith was telling Charette how he truely feels about freinds or he was not lieing to Guts when he called him his friend.

[xephon]

*I response to the first few posts:

how is it such a good chapter? nothing happened...

i mean it was berserk, so it was good, but almost 0 action (that is not really worth ranting about)

*in response to the current topic:

Just becuase griffith is supposed to make it better, does not mean he is in he right, hell Hitler was trying to make the world better...

[MrFelony]

okay, lets just say that SOMEHOW the holocaust would have ended up saving the lives of hundreds of millions of people down the road...would it have been right to do it? do means justify the end blah blah blah. I dont really feel like arguing it if you cant tell hehe.

but Griffith truely loved Guts. It is pretty obvious IMO. they were more than friends, they were BFF...well maybe not forever hehe

[Necromancer]

Hehe what a response.

Guts was Griffiths friend either way and it doesn't matter if they were friends or tools but they were important to Griffith because they were his army with which he wanted to become a king.

[kasgarinn]

I can't really say whether in the end griffith will be a good king or a bad king, up to now he has shown to be a good leader, and from the episodes and anime he at least believed that his dreams of glory although selfish were for the greater good. He seems to be stronger than any of the apostles, so any disciplinary action against them, he can accomplish.

You have to also see how asian people often look at things, there is a general consensus that sacrificing the few for the greater good is a good thing, of two evils, pick the lesser one. This is also a well known dogma here in europe, although some contend this.

I see griffiths sacrifice as the lesser of two evils, and Gutts fury towards griffith is madness on his part, mainly because griffiths death will not decrease evil, it will actually set loose the apostles, as they are no longer bound to griffiths restrictions and law.

The slight view we have seen into the griffiths camp shows truly that griffith did not create the apostles, or the monster army, they were around already causing havoc (or hiding away) here and there.. He only has rallied them under his flag, and has put them under his laws and regulations.. and they respect that because he so much stronger than the others.

If griffith dies, this whole system goes into chaos, and any future for prosperity for the country or the people/monsters is gone.

Also, the 'dark ages' is just one religions myth.. Similar to, in our world, the holy crusade.. very important to the catholic history, but the arabs look at it as just another invasion from a foreign power.

Another thing raised, Evil in the world of gutts is truly relative to the person. Was it evil when the egg of the world gave the priest and his subordinates supernatural powers they thought came from god? Was it evil when the god hand answered his wish to become the egg of the world?

The god hand answer to desperation and the truth in wanting something extremely much, the fact that some (maybe most) choose to use their power to satisfy lust or hatred of the people that are round them or other basic desires just shows you what happens when you give the key to the banana plantation to a monkey who doesn't know any better.

The egg had a noble idea, griffith has a noble idea, and distorted though it may be, the fairy queen also had a noble idea (chapter 14).

Thus Gutts is the true evil from a social perspective, as he would distain everything and everyone, clinging only to his hate for griffith and his need to grow stronger just for the sake to grow stronger. He does not want to save anyone, he'd much rather plunge the future of a country into total chaos under kushan rule then let griffith live. The only thing that holds him back in normal-land is caska and in some sense the others, although they themselves have selfish reasons of being there (except lil fairy guy.. who the author has clearly shown is just there for entertainment value and perhaps the little witch, but as she is uprooted, and finds herself unable to stand on her own two feet, she relies on the comfort of the others and teh memory of her mentor, thus using them for her own sense of security)

That's why I'd rather believe that face to face, gutts could never kill griffith, if he did, he'd go clinically mad and die a few days after killing everything around him, as then all the work griffith has used in putting together his dream, with the help of his soldiers, will have been for naught, their sacrifice would have been for nothing, and only an empty hollow excuse for revenge would have been sated, something which can never uphold the same ferocity as the anger he has.

So right now, I see it as griffith has found his center, he's strong enough now on his own to see his dream come true and to fight and to defend his dream, and gutts and caska is just a sad memory of his former adolescence.

Gutts isn't really a threat right now, and in all honesty there's a good chance he never will be a direct threat to griffith.

K.

[evilester_me]

*I response to the first few posts:

how is it such a good chapter? nothing happened...

i mean it was berserk, so it was good, but almost 0 action (that is not really worth ranting about)

*in response to the current topic:

Just becuase griffith is supposed to make it better, does not mean he is in he right, hell Hitler was trying to make the world better...

Few things...

From a certain pov, Hitler did help in the end. It didnt outweight all the jews he had killed so I'm not saying he was good BUT he did unite Germany which had before been a broken country. That was also partially his goal too.

Also, about the no action thing. It's more action than we've seen in a long time...so for me at least there was action. Plus this is the first time in a while Guts has gotten mad at something, I dont like it as much when he is just bleh and doesnt really seem to care much about what is going on. So I was excited!

[Istvan]

The god hand answer to desperation and the truth in wanting something extremely much, the fact that some (maybe most) choose to use their power to satisfy lust or hatred of the people that are round them or other basic desires just shows you what happens when you give the key to the banana plantation to a monkey who doesn't know any better.

I can't really agree with you that the way all of the apostles use their power for evil is just the natural human response to gaining huge power so suddenly. I mean, look at how they are given that power. The ceremony always occurs at the lowest point of their lives, when the thing they most treasure in all the world has been lost to them, and they are then offered their wish. People in that state of mind don't make the same wishes they would otherwise. Furthermore, they have to sacrifice humans to gain this wish and it is explicitly stated that first, the sacrifice has to be highly valued by the one doing the sacrificing. It is also stated that they use this sacrifice to utterly purge the one doing the sacrifice of human emotion (hence the fact that Griffith didn't care about Gatts anymore, and the statemeant during the ceremony that "These are the last tears you will ever shed"). So yes, the god hand and the apostles are evil, and are deliberately made to be that way. Maybe the original Griffith would have made an excellent king, but I don't think that Femto would in any way be a good king.

[Skullkracker]

he did unite Germany which had before been a broken country.

but it got pretty damn broken afterwards

[kasgarinn]

I can't really agree with you that the way all of the apostles use their power for evil is just the natural human response to gaining huge power so suddenly. I mean, look at how they are given that power. The ceremony always occurs at the lowest point of their lives, when the thing they most treasure in all the world has been lost to them, and they are then offered their wish. People in that state of mind don't make the same wishes they would otherwise. Furthermore, they have to sacrifice humans to gain this wish and it is explicitly stated that first, the sacrifice has to be highly valued by the one doing the sacrificing. It is also stated that they use this sacrifice to utterly purge the one doing the sacrifice of human emotion (hence the fact that Griffith didn't care about Gatts anymore, and the statemeant during the ceremony that "These are the last tears you will ever shed"). So yes, the god hand and the apostles are evil, and are deliberately made to be that way. Maybe the original Griffith would have made an excellent king, but I don't think that Femto would in any way be a good king.

meh, u say potaytow I say poutaaaato.. There is evil there but I think it is in the mind of the beholder, there isn't a standard what is evil and what isn't which the god-hand respond to, they have only responded to need, or lust to those who have the behelit, and they only require a sacrifice worthy of the one making the wish, and only he can say whether a sacrifice is evil or good.

Of course, this is a world concocted out of the imagination of one writer, and he knows best how he views the world, whether there are forces of evil and good, or if there are forces, and they can be interpreted as evil or good.

Gutts armor is a good example.. it is hatred and fury made metal and armor, but is it evil? He could succumb to it and completely destroy everything around him, and that would be an evil act in peoples' opinion, does that mean the armor is evil?

Does an act of evil make a person evil? does thoughts of evil amke a person evil?

Mymymy.. I must be bored@work to start this kinda crap.. that's it, thehun.net to the rescue! Neeekkkeeeed biiiatzzzzzizzzz!

K.

[Khelegond]

Kesgarinn, I must disagree. It doesn't matter that Griffith could sacrifice the Hawk's life, but condemn them to eternal hell, it another level.

He is evil, and so are the apostles, and so is the God Hand. After all, they ask for you to sacrifice what you love the most. To me, that's pretty evil. It's blackmail

But to each it's own...

[ucrzymofo87]

basically what griffith did at the elicpse was unadulterated selfishness. he sacrificed those who saved him from death in prison and those who loved him the most. griffith could have taken the route of the count in volume 3 and not sarificed those who he loved. however, then the story would have ended sooner and that would have sucked.

[kasgarinn]

ah, but won't it be unadulterated selfishness of gutts to kill griffith? Griffith already is big enough to be able to counter the kushans, and he probably will, and killing griffith will only dissolve that into the hands of an even bigger evil, the kushan emperor.

So.. there are two powers vying for the country.. griffith and the emperor.. which one would be better for the country? If you agree that griffith would be a better ruler, and gutts wants to kill griffith, if gutts is given the chance, would it be an evil act to kill griffith for the sake of 'revenge'?

Yes the band of hawks died tragically, but so can you say of the children gutts swatted on his sword in the queen of the elves story, or the poor people who died because of the black goo at the tower where the angel/priest died, who will take revenge for them?

Do you value the lives of the soldiers who died at the sacrifice any higher than the poor people who've been killed by gutts himself?

Funny thing the sense of good and evil.. very relative, and in my opinion gutts is as evil as they come.

K.

[Tempest]

ah, but won't it be unadulterated selfishness of gutts to kill griffith? Griffith already is big enough to be able to counter the kushans, and he probably will, and killing griffith will only dissolve that into the hands of an even bigger evil, the kushan emperor.

So.. there are two powers vying for the country.. griffith and the emperor.. which one would be better for the country? If you agree that griffith would be a better ruler, and gutts wants to kill griffith, if gutts is given the chance, would it be an evil act to kill griffith for the sake of 'revenge'?

True, Griffith seems like the lesser of two evils now, but Gutts doesn't care. If someone in real life was to kill everyone you cared about, everyone you had as a family, and you had spent the rest of your life trying to make them pay for it, then they try and do something seemingly good (We don't know what Griffith will do as king, he just seems to be nice now to play the savior and make it easier to take over Midland), does that mean your friends will have all died in vain? Griffith may be a good king/god/whatever, but that doesn't make him less responsible for the deaths on the band of the hawk.

[MrFelony]

okay this is a little too much shit ot read so i just got a good jist of it .

Guts is good at heart (says SK). he is just being twisted by this unholy rage and hatred for griffith. you can see he is good at heart by how he is acting now. Griffith is also good at heart. If you disagree just go back and reread all the times when he is like "am i a good person" "oh guts im so sad about the deaths of my men" and et cetera. If griffith didnt care about his men's lives, then he wouldnt have slept with that old dude. you can say he did that for expediency but i still think e cared about hte lives of his men. however during the long process of acheiveing his dream, he started believing the lie he was telling himself that his men commit to sacrificing themselves for his dream. and after a year of torture it seems like a really good option when you find out (from a demon albeit) that you are a complete cripple and wont be able to achieve your dream.

and i still agree with what kas (i think) said about the egg as well as idea being neutral, it is the people who influence and made Idea that are evil in nature, thus he weaves their will.

[Istvan]

I agree that Griffith might have been a (sort of) good person. The point I'm making is that after he became Femto he isn't. Also, the statemeant of the black goo that killed all the peasents at the tower, well of course it's evil. It was also, in case you missed it, caused by the gods hand. The children Gatts killed were already basically dead after the bee lady had transformed them (certainly they weren't human anymore). And what's all this talk about "killing Griffith will leave everyone at the mercy of the Kushan King"??? I'll give you two to one odds that Gatts is going to kill the Kushan king before he kills Griffith (unless of course Griffith sneaks in and kills him first).