Religio-Scientific Ethics of Cooter Burning (Split Thread)

[MrFelony]

PEOPLE LETS USE US SOME SPELL CHECK PLEASE! im tired of having to read posts that aren't edited, i know many of my posts may have back grammar or a typographical error here and there, but i at least make sure most of the time that Im spelling things correctly. now that i finished that.


killfile stop taking the "Im more righteous cause i believe the less cheery outlook on life" route. im sick and tired of feeling belittled cause somebody takes the atheistic stance of "why do you have to seek comfort in the idea of a god" well why cant atheists feel fucking happy and comfortable in believing there is a god. though im not saying atheists aren't happy people (some of them are i guess ) just venting a little frustration and im sure the atheists feel belittled by believers.

[Devil_Dante]

First of all, I asked a priest about the older brother and sister thing. The priest said Maria wasn't a virgin b/c she had no children, but b/c she was free from all sins.

Second of all, the fundamentalist nowadays don't die for Allah, although they think they do. They just blow themselves up, killing innocent people (believers and not believers). They think they do it for their god, but actually they do it for a worthless prick that hasn't got the guts to do it themself.

btw, Christians are believers too

[psi29a]

killfile stop taking the "Im more righteous cause i believe the less cheery outlook on life" route. im sick and tired of feeling belittled cause somebody takes the atheistic stance of "why do you have to seek comfort in the idea of a god" well why cant atheists feel fucking happy and comfortable in believing there is a god. though im not saying atheists aren't happy people (some of them are i guess ) just venting a little frustration and im sure the atheists feel belittled by believers.

So you are assuming that Killfile is an Atheist?

Next subject, have you ever consider how atheists feel when they are belittled by those who believe in god? "Your going to hell you know." Why can't they keep their comments to themselves? I'm quite happy thank you very much and I don't need a God or the belief in one to be happy.

Why not lay off us?

[MrFelony]

not an atheist, atheistic stance, and i knew that would bite me in the ass heh. just clarify now, i just forgot to say that killfile you might not be an atheist, and you probably only brought it up for discussion because its always best to look at both sides of the test before you take it. but i had just been fed up by then so i used that as my chance .

actually that's what i referred to in my last sentence or parentheses or w/e. im tired of being belittled (intellectually) cause that's where the atheistic stance tends to come from, where as the religious stance attacks atheists morally. no one likes being belittled, but its hard not to do it on accident. and that's why i said some atheists are happy , to cover my ass a little. i grew up around Jews and atheists. i didn't have one christian friend (well close christian friend) until my friend peter (who is a rarely practicing catholic) and even then it didn't really come up. so while i was growing up i went to more batmiza's than confirmations heh. though to make up for that i had a dad who has been a pastor for the last 5 or 6 years. those atheists i knew definitely were happy so strike the unhappy part, when i was writing that i was semi-annoyed and picturing the 16 yr old wannabe angry punk atheist...which is about as far from psi especially as one can get .

[Skullkracker]

I see atheism being brought up --> smartass time!

Atheism is one of the most controversial things in the world. It means: denying God. But you can't deny sth. that doesn't exist. Therefore He must exist!...there

[Killfile]

PEOPLE LET[']S USE ... SOME SPELL CHECK PLEASE! [I'm] tired of having to read posts that aren't edited[.] know many of my posts may have [bad] grammar or a typographical error here and there, but at least make sure [(]most of the time[)] that I[']m spelling things correctly. [N]ow that i finished that.

Yea, I'm being an ass -- see corrections above

I'm not taking the atheistic stance (nor did I even think I was taking AN atheistic stance at all) to belittle anyone. When we're looking at something like the beginning of the Universe and saying "well there must be a God because the Universe didn't make itself" all other factors are equal. You're choosing God as an explanation because it makes you feel better than leaving the question unanswered or confronting a world without a God. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that - and I'm sorry if you think that means I'm talking down to you. Far from it -- it's a perfectly natural human reaction -- perhaps natural for a REASON.

That said, I'm not an atheist (yes, it is going to bite you on the ass) I'm a Catholic. I just don't like the idea of trying to justify my faith through science and I'm saddened by the Church's actions against men of Science over its history. I'm saddened by my government's actions against Science in the present day.

Ultimately, I feel that a large chunk of Scripture has gone ignored by the Western Christian Tradition. Verses that are inconvenient are left out - and Christianity has become a corruption of the bright and noble idea it was in the 1st - 4th Centuries. With the fall of Rome and the rise of a secular authority for a heavenly power (I.E. the Vatican) Christianity became a religion more concerned with politics than truth, morality, or faith.

The problem is that these early mindsets from the early Church continue to pervade much of the Western religious ideology even today. Religion continues to view Science as adversarial, despite no real compelling reason for that view. Science reciprocates.

When all is said and done, both institutions suffer. They are better off separate, where they can do little harm to each other, than combined -- at least for the interim.

Perhaps, in the indeterminate future, Western Religions will become more like their Eastern counterparts with regard to the Scientific Disciplines. I doubt that will happen within my lifetime. As such, I find Science devoid of Faith and Faith devoid of Science to hold greater credibility and greater relevance than any combination of the two.

If our mindsets change and we are able to master both I will rejoice.... but I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: Double post fixed, integrated below. Double was for clarity, but since ya'll seem to like long diatribes over distinct thoughts... here ya go.

***AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT***

First of all, I asked a priest about the older brother and sister thing. The priest said Maria wasn't a virgin b/c she had no children, but b/c she was free from all sins.

Now you're talking about two separate things. The Immaculate Conception, as it's called, is the idea that Christ was born to Mary, who was without Original Sin. Original Sin is the idea that there is some inherited sin that is passed down over the generations -- the knowledge of Good and Evil as taken by Eve in the Garden of Eden when she ate the apple.

Mary was born without original sin, at least according to Catholic Doctrine (there may be biblical evidence for that, but I'm not aware of it).

The Virgin Birth is substantiated in Luke 2:30-34 which I am including here below

But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

Isn't that a great abuse of the quote system?

[Skullkracker]

wow, a double post.
SOMEBODY wants to own thhe whole page.

(sorry, I'll get back to serious as soon as I read this thread through once)

[Devil_Dante]

First of all, I asked a priest about the older brother and sister thing. The priest said Maria wasn't a virgin b/c she had no children, but b/c she was free from all sins.

Now you're talking about two separate things. The Immaculate Conception, as it's called, is the idea that Christ was born to Mary, who was without Original Sin. Original Sin is the idea that there is some inherited sin that is passed down over the generations -- the knowledge of Good and Evil as taken by Eve in the Garden of Eden when she ate the apple.

Mary was born without original sin, at least according to Catholic Doctrine (there may be biblical evidence for that, but I'm not aware of it).

The Virgin Birth is substantiated in Luke 2:30-34 which I am including here below

But later on, the bible says jesus has older brothers and sisters. This is an error in the bible. Even the priest admitted that, but he explained it with that lame excuse.

[Killfile]

But later on, the bible says Jesus has older brothers and sisters. This is an error in the bible. Even the priest admitted that, but he explained it with that lame excuse.

That's the second time you've made that claim. I'm gonna need to see chapter and verse on that one. All the searching I did didn't turn of any serious evidence of an "older brother."

[Kêthêrîc]

I've come to take the bible with a grain of salt. (haven't read the whole thing yet) Over the course of how many years and languages it is bound to have lost something in translation, in addition to people who would purposely edit it back in the days. Not only that but I also believe that messages can be taken multiple ways. The famous example of a rich man has the same chance of getting into heaven as a camel fitting through the eye of a needle. One could take this as, a rich man has nearly no chance of getting into heaven. But the eye of the needle was a gateway in Isreal (i think?) Rich merchants carrying lots of crap couldn't fit through it because the gate being smaller. Someone could take it either way. Hence the reason i don't really go to church. When you listen to a sermon, you hear one persons view on the subject, and that is all you learn. Also, the church seems sometimes to be corrupt. Not saying all churches are bad, but when you hear of the pastor stealing money from donations, something is awry.

I believe that every person who is looking to seek god should find the answers for themselves. I also believe that most of us have an innate code to which we live our lives, that religion can reinforce. Things like, don't kill, don't steal, and so on. You could say society trained us that way, but i still think you are born with some sense of direction. Many religions are based on the same thing, but they simply call god a different name. The koran has some of the same people in it as the bible, and like killfile showed has scripture relating to the bible. As for what i believe about athiests, I don't think you are going to hell for not believing in god. And to christians who tell you that, they must not follow there own beliefs, for it isn't there place to judge anyone else. Well its a long post, ill get to more later.

[The_Paya]

I believe that every person who is looking to seek god should find the answers for themselves. I also believe that most of us have an innate code to which we live our lives, that religion can reinforce. Things like, don't kill, don't steal, and so on. You could say society trained us that way, but i still think you are born with some sense of direction.

Somehow contrary to which you really mean, but agreeing about the 'innate code', I believe that 'don't kill' and 'don't steal' where things carved in your genes. As how the Egyptians where evolved from cannibals, and as the first sign of civilization on primates was to bury their deceased relatives. And nowadays more than ever trained by world's media, it do feels, and is, but just by plain evolution, an innate code.

[MrFelony]

Yea, I'm being an ass -- see corrections above

yes you are . im not picky about punctuation since its more so implied where as spelling is just annoying. its not like i was doing your when i mean you're

[Artezul]

I wonder, would it 'really' matter how the world came to be? Whether by the hand of God, a bolt of lightning into a gene pool, or by a swirl of magical gas that was excreted by a guy wearing two inch heels. Would it really change anything if you 'knew' the world was made one way or another?

Edit: Doh, when I spellchecked, it auto dunked me into the thread.

[MrFelony]

you know you could just edit the post and spell check it while editing it...or did soething else im not thinking of happen... and yes it would matter because the existance of a god greatly affects everyone on the world. and we arent just talking about our stay on earth, but the eternity afterwards . and if you knew then what would be the point of faith . its all about testing the human belief. its harder to have faith when you know its there for sure.

[Starnum]

"Your going to hell you know." Why can't they keep their comments to themselves?

I'd just like to say that anyone who says that doesn't understand what being a Christian is really about. There is only one entity in existence who has the right to say that, and he isn't a close-minded human, let me tell you.

As for the whole rich man through the eye of a needle thing, it's a metaphor. Money is the root of all evil, so it simply means that a truly greedy man while have very slim chances. People like that tend to do horrible things. That's not to say you can't have a nice or good rich guy. It all just depends on your merit.

Oh yeah, and I know Jesus had siblings, but I don't remember anything about "older" ones.

[LordMune]

it is bound to have lost something in translation

Speaking of mistranslations, I remember reading that "hell" never actually existed in the old testament (or perhaps it was an earlier writ), and is a mistranslation which was applied to the concept of the underworld (Hades, Tartarus, whatever else was around), creating what would later become known as "Hell". I don't remember the details, but I do believe the phrase refering to "hell" is accurately translated to "to die die" or some equivalent. This phrase would refer to not being... reborn or whatever you are on Judgement Day. You would simply stay dead. No heaven, and the opposite of heaven is hell, ergo, Hell is death, and to stay dead.

I don't remember the source and hence cannot confirm its validity.
But I needed the +1

[Starnum]

Actually, that's pretty close. In chapter 20 of Revelation, we learn that Hell is nothing more than an abyss that Satan is trapped in for a thousand years. It's like a prison. The lake of fire is something seperate all together. It is when God rains down fire on the damned, who are circled around the city of God. This all takes place on Earth. It then says that death and Satan and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and they are all consumed. Then it is wiped away, and God creates a new heaven and new earth, and they are one. There is no more tears and no more pain. Thus, the damned are annihilated, and cease to be. This is the second death. The true punishment that last forever is seperation from God. Burning forever is a Christian myth that was accepted from Dante's Inferno, which is nothing more than a work of fiction. It's all a matter of weather or not you accept God, and want to be with him. If not, he will give you death, which is nothingness. Most people who will recieve this probably don't want to live with God anyway. Physical pain is useless and shallow. God works on a higher level than that. Also, I think God is pure love, so it makes more sense this way. It's all there in Revelation 20, check it out.

[Killfile]

Speaking of mistranslations, I remember reading that "hell" never actually existed in the old testament (or perhaps it was an earlier writ), and is a mistranslation which was applied to the concept of the underworld

Yes, you'll find a stunning lack of references to hell in the old testament. This leads to the rather amusing quip -- "The Jews are smart. They don't have a hell"

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

Yeah exactly what I was going to say. The jews doesn't believe in heaven or hell, they just don't know what will happen and probably doesn't care that much either

[Devil_Dante]

http://www.macgregorministries.org/seve ... thers.html

But afterwards it says they were stepbrothers? Although I think that's bs

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/c ... htm/xl.htm

[LordMune]

Internet, the incorruptible source of all truth.

[psi29a]

Internet, the incorruptible source of all truth.

Internet: The biggest collaboration of morons yet assembled on this planet.

[MrFelony]

especially in this thread (yes i realize that that includes me as well ).

[oneofakind]

Internet: The biggest collaboration of morons yet assembled on this planet.

You´re so damn right with that one!!!!

[Skullkracker]

Yes, you'll find a stunning lack of references to hell in the old testament. This leads to the rather amusing quip -- "The Jews are smart. They don't have a hell"

and a Redeemer neither

Starnum is right again. It doesn't really matter if Hell is hot or not, it's incredibly bad. God created man, so man belongs to God, and that is how it was in Eden, and will be in Heaven (for some). The rest don't gain everlasting life (which will be damn different, beyond our imagination, but surely good). Hell on the contrary is everlasting death and suffering. And I wouldn't really like to spend eternity with Satan and Co, who do not own and rule Hell, but will suffer there too.

But money being the source of evil...if that is so, I'm going to become really wicked...or would have denied studying corporate finance sooner.
It's more like sth that replaces spiritual things in the life of many, and become the ultimate value. The Bible says you can't serve two lords, that means that you can earn good money, but mustn't surrender everything to it: including God.