Religio-Scientific Ethics of Cooter Burning (Split Thread)

[Libaax]

there is a lot more proof that god exists than he doesnt.

Then prove it.

The human body is a good proof that there is a god cause it made too well to be something that came out of nowhere.

[Skullkracker]

Yeah, just take a look at the sexy women thread...(which I'm going to liven up sooner or later)

...no seriously, the DNA contains such a large amount of information, that makes even the most sophisticated computer performance ridiculous...it is just too damn well moade to be accidental.

[MrFelony]

but its so...developed...and perfect...god must have planned that

serious discussion averted heh

[Kêthêrîc]

well, i knew this path was inevitable. Here are my thoughts on god.

To Eldo: If you are talking about god as in god of the bible, i don't think that it ever says god is "perfect" or "omniscient." I haven't read much of the bible but I beleive that god made a few mistakes in it? Killing the entire human race except for noah, and if god could see the future then why would he have ever created satan? who knows?

To science fanatics: The only question i have ever asked that I've never gotten an answer from is this. If matter can not be created or destroyed only altered, then how did any matter ever come into existence? Also how can space expand daily, into an infinite amount? Think about it.... space is an INFINITE amount....it will never end. (supposedly there is an end to space, but what happens when you go beyond the bounds of that? Its going to be a big nothing but more space.)

I had a friend who is going to be an astrophysisist (sp?) who was an athiest. He was telling me about some scientific theory involving the path of atoms, (path of movement). It's been awhile so i can't remember much about it, but from what he said was something to the effect of predicting the path of movement of atoms. If you could do that it would mean that atoms will be moving in a preordained pattern, or a "master plan." I can't remember the name of the theory or all its details, if anyone knows what im talking about please feel free to chime in.

p.s. This thread is better now than it was in the beginning.

[MrFelony]

i agree that it is better. and i agree with you there keth, i believe god is human in nature, hence why the world and humans are flawed.

but the thing about atoms still goes with god, where did god come from? thought i would bring that up since it was going to be eventually .

[Kêthêrîc]

Can you really tell me that your mind can grasp the concept that creation of space and life is infinite? It is easy to say, yes infinite means never ending, blah blah blah, but think for a second about it. How in the hell can something never end. Where is all this matter coming from? It supposedly can't be created, yet more exists every day as the limits of space are pushed further, and more life is created. For me it is just too awe inspiring to "happen on its own." That's why i believe in a god.

[Ayanami]

Have you read any theories of dark matter and the big bang?? Perhaps they will give you some idea of why it may be happening...

[Femto]

Can you really tell me that your mind can grasp the concept that creation of space and life is infinite? It is easy to say, yes infinite means never ending, blah blah blah, but think for a second about it. How in the hell can something never end. Where is all this matter coming from? It supposedly can't be created, yet more exists every day as the limits of space are pushed further, and more life is created. For me it is just too awe inspiring to "happen on its own." That's why i believe in a god.

You just missed my point completely. I do not claim to grasp the concept of infinity, not even one bit, but it's just as complicated as the concept of god having existed forever. You said it yourself, how the hell can something never end? Answer me this one, how the hell can something never begin? Because god has existed forever and will exist forever. You're ignoring the search for a logical answer and instead rely on the simplest and easiest explanation, that of a higher being that created all. Even that poses it's own series of problems (where did god come from?), but neither religion nor the so-called faithful seem to care about it. At least there are logical theories to the creation of the universe (like Ayanami mentioned), as imcomplete as they may be. Some of you say that it's impossible for human beings, as complicated as they are, to come into existence on their own (something I completely disagree with), yet you don't even question the fact that god, an all-powerful being with the ability to create a complete universe, came out of nowhere. Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of an infinite universe, yet so easy to grasp the concept of an infinite god?

That was my point.

[Ayanami]

I took an astronomy class and started to go to astronomy meetings to discuss theory and what not. When you hear more theories and discoveries made by scientists, you tend to believe less and less in any type of creation myth.

You can't prove that god created the universe, how ever it may be possible to calculate how the universe came to be with science and math.

[Starnum]

Man, it's a shame I missed out on this conversation. At this point I wouldn't know where to begin. I have kind of a Christian standpoint on the matter, but I like to keep an open-mind. Besides, I have some pretty radical beliefs that would also make some consider me a heretic, so meh. Yeah, I’m of the belief that God is Omnipotent though. I also believe that fate is like the will of God. However, to believe that random chaos doesn’t exist at all seems a little silly. I mean, there are innumerable things in existence that are just to asinine to mean anything, or make any difference. I mean, if every time a dog took a shit had deep meaning, then that would be kind of ridiculous. I think that the course of events that govern the future are a mixture of both destiny and coincidence. It’s deciding which played the hand in important events that matters. We must also factor in free will. I see fate as a layout, but it’s not a definite. It’s like a current, or a flowing stream. However, our choices can divert it or change its path, like a stone parting the waters. However, ultimately such things are all a matter of opinion, and none of it can be proven. So I say to each his own, and in your individual reality, it will be truth.

[Skullkracker]

This thread is really getting good.

Libaax: I KNOW? BUT I COULDN'T HELP IT! I'M A PERVERT!!!

Ok, back to serious. I would just like to pinpoint two things:

- we may have individual beliefs, but that doesn't mean that there is no absolute truth. That is what the postmoden philosophy of our age suggests, and it's fuckin' screwed up...

- -thinkin' hard-
oh yes: just remember this: space and time as we know it never really existed before God created them, therefore the questions of what was before that lose their meaning. It's difficult for us to understand, just like we can't imagine a fourth or fifth dimension, although some phisicists claim there should be at least eleven. So the point is: God is infinite and perfect, we are not. Just a stupid example: if you write a computer programme, no matter how good it is, it would be quite impossible to explain it what the world around you is really like.

And about Big Bang: I was trying to suggest that according to it everything that exists now came from a big burst of materia. But even mathematical models cannot describe what happened in a specific time and lenght of space (Planck time and Planck space if I'm not mistaken).
As soon as I'm done with my last exam I'll searcjh for my "science and religion" notes, and let you all have a piece of my mind.

[Femto]

- -thinkin' hard-
oh yes: just remember this: space and time as we know it never really existed before God created them, therefore the questions of what was before that lose their meaning. It's difficult for us to understand, just like we can't imagine a fourth or fifth dimension, although some phisicists claim there should be at least eleven. So the point is: God is infinite and perfect, we are not. Just a stupid example: if you write a computer programme, no matter how good it is, it would be quite impossible to explain it what the world around you is really like.

This bit is gold, really insightful stuff IMO.

The lack of time and space means that neither infinity nor place could be defined before creation. Still, god must've been something then, so it still doesn't answer the main question and it's still just a simple (in terms of concept at least) explanation to giant questions. In other words, we are back at square one.

[Skullkracker]

I see what you mean, and it is a hatd-to-swallow part for me as well. But, there are just aspects in which the creation cannot match up to the creator.

[Femto]

Touché.

Not that it means a lot to me since I don't believe in a creator.

[Starnum]

Oh, that is indeed some good stuff. Yes, I too believe that regardless of one's beliefs, there is definitely an absolute truth out there. However, as mortals, we'll never be able to know it. Regardless of what you believe, you have to accept the fact that there are some things that we’ll never be able to actually explain, prove, or understand *shrugs*.

[Skullkracker]

That's why we have to settle with what the Creator tells us...

cause the thought of a creator is still easier to imagine in my mind than aviogenesis (if I remember well this is tah fancy word for lifeless materia coming to life), becouse if it starts lifeless and ends up lifeless then what would be the point?

[LordMune]

there is definitely an absolute truth out there. However, as mortals, we'll never be able to know it.

This is another popular belief which I'll never be able to understand. It seems to be, like many other aspects of religion or faith in general, based on fear. Fear of being completely random and without purpose, in this case, conveniently bundled with a self-fulfilling prophecy which justifies asshat theologies and a generally over-conservative view of science. What the hax?

[psi29a]

interesting off topic deviation

[Libaax]

Many of the "reasons" and "arguments" supporting god that have been listed here are just explanations to unknown phenomena (I never thought I'd use that word seriously). The existence of an all-mightily being suddenly explains of all the stuff that we don't about the universe, so it's easier to accept it, but can we really call it proof? Why is it so hard for some of you to believe that the universe is limitless or that an extremely complex entity like the human being can come to exist (something that didn't happen from one day to another I might add), yet it's so easy to accept god as being something that has existed forever?

So you think that we humans came to exist without there being a god to make us?? That is ever more unlikely than there is a god.....

Yeah this is without a doubt the best off topic discussion i haven seen in this forum .

[LordMune]

So you think that we humans came to exist without there being a god to make us??

On the flip side of the coin, there are probably microorganisms out there way more complex than human beings, and god supposedly spent less than a fraction of a nanosecond creating, or even caring about them at all, in the first place. The concept of "God's Will" was used in the past because there simply were no other ways to explain certain phenomena. Now we can explain them, and the crutch of science-substitute humanity leaned on in the past is now back to beat those silly ideas out of our heads and bring us back to the good old days of the Dark Ages. :\

[Messatsu]

What an interesting topic.

In the search for one absolute Truth humanity has created what is known as dogma, which claims to be that Truth. Now this "Truth" can be easily disrupted by other dogmas or another Truth, say philosophical or other wise. Now one must not fall into the trap set by these "truths' one must not believe that all these philosophies and religions hold the one TRUE Truth that humanity has been searching for. This would put you in minimalist mentality, which is believing in one thing even if it only concentrates on just one aspect of humanity/the universe.

[Libaax]

So you think that we humans came to exist without there being a god to make us??

On the flip side of the coin, there are probably microorganisms out there way more complex than human beings, and god supposedly spent less than a fraction of a nanosecond creating, or even caring about them at all, in the first place. The concept of "God's Will" was used in the past because there simply were no other ways to explain certain phenomena. Now we can explain them, and the crutch of science-substitute humanity leaned on in the past is now back to beat those silly ideas out of our heads and bring us back to the good old days of the Dark Ages. :\

Yeah the are lots of organism who are much more complex than humans but i choosed humans well since thats our race

Also i'm not talking about God's Will, i'm just saying that there are many organism that it seems like someone made with care and not that they are a fluke.

[MrFelony]

i agree that it is better. and i agree with you there keth, i believe god is human in nature, hence why the world and humans are flawed.

but the thing about atoms still goes with god, where did god come from? thought i would bring that up since it was going to be eventually .

i brought up that point before you femto

On the flip side of the coin, there are probably microorganisms out there way more complex than human beings, and god supposedly spent less than a fraction of a nanosecond creating, or even caring about them at all, in the first place. The concept of "God's Will" was used in the past because there simply were no other ways to explain certain phenomena. Now we can explain them, and the crutch of science-substitute humanity leaned on in the past is now back to beat those silly ideas out of our heads and bring us back to the good old days of the Dark Ages. :\

its not like the dark ages were really that bad . but the way i see it, god created that micro-organism to perform some task to serve humanity. god created the world and man because he was lonely. and god created eve because man was lonely. but in the process, god created millions of companions for man that werent right for adam. the way i see it, the 7 days of labor in genesis are more of "gods time." in time relative to us, it would equate to millions of years. time enough to create the world, as well as evolve humans. if you look at it, man was made from the earth and thus he shall return when he dies. i mesh together science and religion. i spare you from a lot of other ideas that pop into my head . either way my religion isnt set in stone yet because there is still so much to learn and what not. but the definites are that there is a (loving) higher being who created us, though we arent sure how.

[Kêthêrîc]

Why is it so hard for some of you to believe that the universe is limitless

Can you really tell me that your mind can grasp the concept that creation of space and life is infinite?

I do not claim to grasp the concept of infinity

I saw this as a little contradictory, I could be misunderstanding you though.

Many of the "reasons" and "arguments" supporting god that have been listed here are just explanations to unknown phenomena (I never thought I'd use that word seriously). The existence of an all-mightily being suddenly explains of all the stuff that we don't about the universe, so it's easier to accept it, but can we really call it proof?

You can't really prove it, can you disprove it? You can't really prove the big bang theory either, there are just signs that MAY point to it having happened. I have always asked the same question Femto. If god existed, how did he ever come into existence? For something such as god though, it is acceptable to think outside the boundaries of physics, or any scientific facts. I still don't have an answer for you. It is nearly impossible to pit these two subjects up against each other (science and religion) Because: 1.When talking about god no human laws apply. 2. Science knows approximately how 1% of the universe works. (not enough to discredit anything.) Here are some interesting facts about creation from the Anthropic Principle.

One of the first things that was noticed was the rate of the expansion of the universe. It was just right for the formation of stars and galaxies. If the rate had been greater, matter would have dispersed too efficiently to form galaxies. No galaxies—then no stars, no sun, and no earth. On the other hand, had the rate been slower, matter would have clumped together so efficiently that it would have collapsed into a high-density "lump" before any stars could form. Again, no stars and no sun-no earth.
Even more significantly, just after the origin event the expansion velocity was modified by two factors:

• The cosmic mass density. Physicists have calculated that for physical life to ever be possible at any time in the universe, the overall cosmic mass density must be fine-tuned to a mere 1 part in 10 to the 60th power. (edit: exponents dont work.)

• The cosmic space energy density. Likewise, physicists have calculated that the value of the cosmological constant must be exact to 1 part in 10 to the 120th power. Shortly before the cosmological constant was discovered, astrophysicist Lawrence Krauss noted that its addition to the big-bang model "would involve the most extreme fine-tuning problem known in physics." The odds that just these two aspects of the big bang randomly happened are 1 in 10 to the 180th power—about the same as winning 23 lotteries in a row with a single ticket for each!

• The speed of light. The constant of the speed of light—299,792,458 kilometers per second—is critical to the existence of life. A faster speed of light would cause energy ("E" in "E=mc2") to increase dramatically, burning up life on planet earth. A lower "E" would cause things to freeze.

• The age of the universe when the earth appeared. The earth had to appear at a certain stage—several generations of giant stars had to have fused enough heavy elements to allow for the proper earth chemistry. Also, the earth had to be located in the right part of the galaxy for life to appear.

• Small-mass and large-mass stars. Both are needed in order for life to exist. For this to be possible, the ratio of the electromagnetic force constant to the gravitational force constant must be correct within 1 part in 10 to the 40th power. An increase or decrease in this ratio by only that factor would make life untenable.


About 10 to 15 new critical parameters have been discovered each year. A small change in any one of these would make life impossible. To date, more than 152 have been identified. It's often surprising what factors play a part in earth's suitability for human life. Here's a sampling of some of the critical parameters.

• Earth's distance from sun: Too close, too hot for life. Too far, too cold.

• Sun's location relative to center of galaxy: Too close to center, too close to meteor storms. Too far away, too unstable.

• Sun's mass: Key to energy distribution to earth.

• Sun's short-term and long-term luminosity variability:

• Must be in proper ranges for photosynthesis.

• Tilt of planetary axis: Necessary for seasons. All three forms of water (liquid, ice, and gas) are necessary to maximize life variables.

• Number of moons: Must have one moon for tidal forces, but more than one would create unbearable tidal instability.

• Ratio of oceans to continents: Must be correct to keep global temperature stable (land and water absorb heat at different rates).

• Position and mass of Jupiter relative to Earth: Jupiter's gravity is critical to life on earth.

• Atmospheric transparency: Important both for rate of photosynthesis and degree of energy transfer (heat) to earth.

• Carbon dioxide level: Important for rate of vegetation stabilization.

• Oxygen level: Important for ozone protection and amount of breathable air for animals.

• Amount of phosphorus in crust: A critical element for health of bone and muscles.

• Chlorine quantity in atmosphere: Critical for developing electrolyte balance.

• Selenium quantity in crust: A critical mineral as an anti-oxidant.

• Fluorine quantity in crust: A critical mineral for the body.

From just this partial listing, we can start to see that the conditions on this planet are far from random. A variation in one of them of 10 percent—in some cases as little as one-thousandth of a percent—would make life impossible.

Have you read any theories of dark matter and the big bang?? Perhaps they will give you some idea of why it may be happening...

Dark matter apparently accounts for up to 90% of the matter in the universe. (matter that we can't see because it has no light) Scientists believe dark matter supplied sufficient gravitational pull to allow galaxies to form. If the universe really isn't made up of alot of dark matter then the universe will stop expanding and recede on itself (killing everything eventually). If it's made up of enough dark matter it will continue to expand forever, and if there is a perfect amount it will stop expanding, but wont recede either. That's about all i know on dark matter, but i don't see how this answers any question to creation of matter in the first place, or what triggered the explosion of the big bang. Kudos to those who read through this whole post.

[Skullkracker]

Now that's what I call a post! Well done...

A thing to LordMune:
I know many people who are well off living randomly and without a purpose, but if people look around and start asking questions they will eventually start asking questions about where they come from and where they are heading. This may only happen when they grow old and get closer to death. Or achieved everything they ever wanted but still find life meaningless.

I think Platon or some other famous philosophist put it like this:
people have a god-shaped hole in their hearts that nothing else can fill...

at leastonly temporary. Humans were created to live in communion with God, but just as there are consequences to reaking the rules of this forum, there are consequences to breaking the one simple rule of Eden, (and blaming it on anybody else)... this is one of the reasons life on Earth is so much shit...