About Griffith...

[MrFelony]

the only thing post count does mean is that the person has been around longer and been acclimated to the people around him. this means that he has most likely become friends with the people around the forum. when a person has a small amount of posts it means that they are still adjusting to the people around him and vice versa.

[Skullkracker]

Well...
I must state that in my view post count does affect who become "opinion leaders", but maybe just becouse they have the friends here who back them up...no offence anyone!

Anyway Wyrm, don't be discouraged, you had some points, and Starnum had some. It's natural that differnt people see the same thing in a different way.

I would love to see how this discussion goes on (not the post count, the Griffith - Guts parallel).

[Eldo]

Well...
I must state that in my view post count does affect who become "opinion leaders", but maybe just becouse they have the friends here who back them up...no offence anyone!

Not really. If they have 'friends' who back them up with the sufficient information and evidence in his post, then it's his/her own opinion, but in agreement with this 'opinion leader'.

[Wyrm]

Can i ask you if what you think about the current Griffith. A hero of midland or a imposter ?

I honestly cant say at this juncture. We just don't know too much about the new Griffith. I think the only time we hear him actually talk is during his graveyard visit where he says that he still wants to become king. Although his attack on poor old Flora certainly wasn't hero materiel.

Right now he is without doubt (in common peoples eyes) a hero for his attempts to free the Midland from the Kushan invasion. But does it make him any less of a hero that he is merely doing it so he can become king and not out of the goodness of his heart? I don't think so. That kind of selfless hero belongs in fairytales.

But as I said earlier what is most interesting is what happens after he becomes king. What will he do then?
If he turns all badass I think that things will be a little too easy for Guts, because otherwise he will be trying to kill a legend in the making. I don't think anyone will be rooting for him then.

Also, as it stands now Guts doesn't seem very interested in taing down Griffith. So something has to happen that will motivate him, and it would have to do with Griffiths secret dark side.

On one hand I think that he (Griffith) is actually the dark hawk in the prophecy and on the other I think he might become the most celebrated hero in all of Midland. Maybe first the one and then the other.

Another interesting thing to see is what he is going to do about all those nasty apostles his got in his invincible army once he has dealt with Ganishka. Those guys are not going to stay housebroken forever and might even become a threat to peace in his glorious Kingdom. The way I see it, he will either betray and kill them all once he has no further use for them or put them to work in an attempt to take over the whole world.

In summary, Griffith is certainly not a classic selfless hero. He is not doing any good out of the goodness of his heart. But since people don't know that he will become a hero in their eyes. If he stays that way or not depends on his actions after his ascension to kinghood.

But I bet that he will do something nasty to Guts to rekindle the flames of hate in his heart.

[Libaax]

Can i ask you if what you think about the current Griffith. A hero of midland or a imposter ?

But as I said earlier what is most interesting is what happens after he becomes king. What will he do then?




On one hand I think that he (Griffith) is actually the dark hawk in the prophecy and on the other I think he might become the most celebrated hero in all of Midland. Maybe first the one and then the other.

That is what i wanna know too, since its Griffith we are talking about it wont be something like making sure that the people of midland gets more food or something like that.


And about white hawk its gotta be Guts since he will be the one to take down the black hawk. Also a BIG clue is that Femto looks like a black hawk in his god hand outfit.

And its a classic move that the church thinks that Guts is the black hawk cause of his name and what he does in thier eyes "killing innocent people"
Then they will be surprised when they see what happens when Griffith get the power in midland.

[Sykes]

Wyrm, not a bad point at all. It is very true that from the people of Midland's point of view Griffith is a hero. My personal opinion is that Griffith is a monster who betrayed the people who believed in him and I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed all of Midland to achieve even greater power in the end. I realize that his dream has been to rule Midland. However, the line between ruling and subjugation, is easily blurred especially in the mind of a megalomaniac such as Griffith.

[Skullkracker]

Agreeable, but:

What more could he possibly wish for? A second penis?

[Concealed_Rage]

no wishes, Griffith is the leader of the god hand aka femto. Once he becomes ruler of midland i am sure his ambitions will not be peaceful or even be remotely beneficial to men.

[Lel]

I'm just wondering...

...why do people think Griffith will rule his kingdom poorly? He is obviously a great leader and knows how to manage his resources. I'm not saying he *will* be a good king, but that it's not completely out of the question.

[Wyrm]

I'm just wondering...

...why do people think Griffith will rule his kingdom poorly? He is obviously a great leader and knows how to manage his resources. I'm not saying he *will* be a good king, but that it's not completely out of the question.

Griffith could be the greatest ruler of all time if he wanted to be. But from the point of view of some of us readers it would a tad, shall we say, boring. Chaos always makes for better entertainment than order.

Besides it's not Mirua's style to keep things all calm and tidy like that.

[Arresty]

Man I have so much I want to say in my pro griffith effort, but I am too lazy to read alll the other peoples points and say what has been missed and counter what has been said, and also just too lazy to type a long as post. Maybe after I take a nap I will do it, but for now:

GO GRIFFITH.

I am a conversation killer.

[Necromancer]

All I have to add to this is "we'll see" nobody knows what Griffith thinks or feels. We just know what he wants.

[MrFelony]

I think it is quite obvious what Griffith will most likely do after he regains midland. expand. he has just retaken a people's kingdom and gained their 100% loyalty. what else is better/easier to do that turn their passions outwards towards conquest. but im just looking forward to the battle to retake the midland capital from the rebelling apostle.

[Starnum]

Can i ask you if what you think about the current Griffith. A hero of midland or a imposter ?

I honestly cant say at this juncture. We just don't know too much about the new Griffith. I think the only time we hear him actually talk is during his graveyard visit where he says that he still wants to become king.

Actually, he spoke to Mule when Sonia first brought him to Griffith. This was right after he was entertaining the mourning people by showing them the spirits of their loved ones, which were flying around him all magical like.

Anyway, I can agree with the common view that Griffith isn't going to rule justly. I mean, I think he would have had he never become Femto. However, now it just wouldn't make any sense, especially after what he's become, and what he's done. Then again, you never know, Miura could flip some crazy shit on us, heh.

[MrFelony]

i agree that he is gonna be a great ruler of and for the people, he is just gonna use that to rule his kingdom his way.

[dos.azn]

have no fear, dos is here!

[MrFelony]

another +1 dos?



heh read my title

[Skullkracker]

I think it is quite obvious what Griffith will most likely do after he regains midland. expand. he has just retaken a people's kingdom and gained their 100% loyalty. what else is better/easier to do that turn their passions outwards towards conquest. but im just looking forward to the battle to retake the midland capital from the rebelling apostle.

Mostly what I'm thinkin'.
But even if for some reason he would just wanna rule Midland...WHAT KIND OF KINGDOM COULD HE HAVE WITH ALL THOSE LEFTOVER APOSTLES RUNNING AMOCK???

Wait: that's it: after driving the Kusharn out he would ally with Guts again (...I'm not going to comment this statement...) and turn to eredicating the apostles.
Only then would there be SOME chance of him normally ruling a normal kingdom.

OR: should I rather bring this shit over to the stupid theories thread?

[Wyrm]

OR: should I rather bring this shit over to the stupid theories thread?

Nah, I already mentioned this as a possibility. At least I think that it could happen.

[Wyrm]

[BIG ASS POST ALERT! PEOPLE WITH LOW ATTENTION SPANS LOOK AWAY!]

First of all Starnum, in spite of the rather hostile tone in your response I will try to keep mine civilized, as I always do. I hate flaming and flamers. Remember kids, you don't have to be an ass to get your point through, though it helps some times.

Well then lets get started. I'll tackle your response one chunk at a time:

Whoa, let's just hold on a second here pal. Since you feel the need to make such a big ass post, and tell us all about it, let me go ahead and set you straight on some of this shit. First all, did you stop reading the manga before Gatts even left the Hawks, or do you just have low reading comprehension? There's a clearly understandable scene, right after Gatts hears Griffith's little spill about what a friend is to him, where Gatts does some deep thinking. He realizes that he has just been fighting to live, and at that point he decides he wants purpose in his life. Gatts hasn't been without ambition, or a dream, in a long ass time pal. So let's not go telling everyone that he still only fights to survive. He has motives deeper than that for what he does now days, and if you don't know that, then you should calm it down, and stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

I'll start by saying that I mistakenly did not write that I was comparing Guts to Griffith as they both were before and up until the eclipse and not after. After the eclipse Griffith died (in my eyes) and was reborn as something else and Guts has changed a lot since he met his new groupies.

At that time Guts did really live by the sword one day at a time. And yes, I would be a idiot to not have understood his motivation for leaving the group from the fountain scene in v06c06 and other instances, so please don't insult my intelligence by implying that I did not. Now, when I said that Guts left his friends without any good reason I was actually not referring to his motivation being trivial rather I was criticizing the poor way in which he chose to carry out those motivations.

But before I further explain that let me point out that Guts had always been toying with the idea of leaving the Hawks, his stay there was always meant to be temporary. He says so several times but I don't feel like sifting though 10+ volumes to find everyone of them. So I'll just mention the following v05c02p73-74 he says (about being with the Hawks) "For the time being", "Just for the time being". Granted that was in the beginning of his joining the Hawks and he seemingly does change his mind in v06c01p30-31 after he hears what Griffith feels for him, but he quickly changes it again later. Also on the same pages we hear that although Guts has not had any ambitions he has since childhood been looking for a answer, I think the question was a reason to live. Lastly I have the excellent "Bonfire of dreams" scene on v07c06p130 where Guts says to Casca, and I quote, "I am just a visitor taking comfort from the flame". Here he is using the flame as a metaphor for everyone's dreams and he relates how he thinks of himself as being below people such as Griffith and the others because they all have dreams they are willing to risk their lives for while he has never had that.

Ok returning to the "Guts not having a good reason to leave the Hawks", I will stand by that even in the face of torture. What I meant by that was not that his ambitions were no good, I merely meant that he did not have to leave the Hawks like that to achieve his goals. His ambition was to no longer to be Griffiths sword, he wanted to go out and find a dream for himself and by dedicating himself to that dream become Griffiths equal and true friend (in Griffiths eyes). Face it, leaving the people you have risked your lives and bonded with on countless battlefields for the last 3 years on a dark snowy night without a word is not the best way to go about starting a journey of self-discovery. Sure it was a very picturesque and very Gutsy (he he) way of doing it, but that doesn't mean Guts was any less of a dick for doing it like that.

Here is how he could have done it that would have showed the respect for his friends and comrades that they deserved. He could have knocked down Griffiths freaking door and told him that he overheard him and the princesses conversation that night by the fountain (v06c06) and upon hearing it he had realized that he wanted to become Griffiths true friend and to do that he needed some time off to find himself. I am sure Griffith would have been very understanding about it all and once the news had been broken to the other Hawks they would have thrown a grand fare thee well party for Guts and had seen him off. Then every once in a while he could have swung by to see his dear old friends while continuing on with his journey. Ok, so Griffith might still not have let him go, but at least he would have scored some good friend points for making the effort, but he didn't.

Of course that happy go lucky scenario would not have worked out in the context of the story Mirua was trying to tell, but never the less, it could have played out like that. So Guts had no good reason to up and leave the Hawks like that. He was being a dick and did not appreciate his friends by doing it like that. But hell, though a dick he was I still love the man. He is the anti-hero after all, he was just playing the part, and well.

And don't even get me started on how he left the Hawks just to lock himself up in a cave for a year only to come in time to realize that he might never find the answer (v09c08p166), seriously. Then ever so slightly later find out that he had already found the answer.

This leads me to mention another important thing. Guts actually didn't need to leave the Hawks after all, not even for his so called ambition. Why can I say this? Because he realizes this himself in v12c02p37. There Guts says and I quote "My place was really here. But I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here... at that time."

There you go, directly from the horses mouth itself. After Guts screwed everything up by leaving and sending the Hawks down the spiral of destruction he returns only to discover that what he left them to look for has always been here and he let his loner nature blind him from seeing it. So yeah, if Guts had appreciated his friends more he just might have realized that he had no actual need to leave them and go off on his own. Yet, he doesn't even learn from this life crippling blunder at all because not long after the eclipse he ups and leaves Casca to go on his quest for vengeance. And then again 2 years later in v17c09p191 when casca is lost he realizes that he has made the same mistake and again hasn't realized it until it is too late.

Wow, did Griffith personally confide this in you?

Yes! He whispered it along with other sweet nothings into my ear while holding me tight to his manly sweaty throbbing body after a passionate night of lovemaking. When I woke up that magical night all seemed to have been naught but a beautiful hazy vision of a dreamy ecstasy, and I would have believed it to be too if it was not for that roll of twenties he had left on the nightstand before leaving. Ah, the memories....

Just because he hasn't said what he wishes to do after becoming king, doesn't mean that's all there is to it. Actually, the way he spoke of it, it seemed he originally did have some things he wanted to change. Of course, I can't say that for sure. It's possible that he does just want to be king. However, until we really find out, we won't know. So let's not speak so definitely about it.

But seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that Griffith was just aiming to be king for the sake of being a king. Not to use his powers to do any good or change anything for the better. I challenge anyone to find just even one quote where he says otherwise. In the mean while entertain yourself with the following passages I have found that I think do a pretty good job of dissecting Griffiths dream and the kind of person he was.

Lets start with the smallest first as he in v05c02p64 for the first time tells Guts what the Hawks are
all about. He says and I quote "I will take hold of my own country". He doesn't follow that up with a "So we can save all the helpless puppies and kittens. Damn it man! Think of the suffering kittens you monster!"

Why? It could just have been a coincidence or maybe his childhood had been traumatized by a ugly kitten related incident. However, if ever there was good moment to further explain his motives then that was it. Because on the next paged he goes on about how Guts now belongs to him and he is going to decide his place of death. Maybe throwing in a "Let's cure cancer with my l33t king powers" afterwards might have motivated the man to sacrifice his life for the greater good, but he said nothing.

Anyhow, that was a pretty weak argument so I'll move on to a more concrete example. In the "conversation with the princess by the fountain" scene in v06c06p125 Griffith explains why men fight each other to acquire and protect important things and when Charlotte asks about this important thing Griffith says, and I quote "A dream. It's something you do for yourself. Not for others."

Well, I think that makes it pretty clear that Griffiths dream is selfish in nature and he was doing it for himself and not for others. But to put the last nail in that coffin lets take a look at the excellent "Reality of you conscious world" sequence in v12c08&09 where we realize the true nature of Griffith and his dream. I will not quote any specific pages in these two chapters because from reading them it is pretty clear that Griffith since childhood has had a desire to reach the castle and be king. Nowhere is there any mention of him wanting to be king for any reasons that were noble or beneficial to his fellow man. He simply sought after the brightest things in his young eyes. He just wanted to reach the castle, that is all. If there was more to it I think it would have been mentioned there. That was one of the most important scenes explaining the kind of man Griffith is.

Um, excuse me. You need to re-read that section. Gatts had a damn good reason for leaving. He needed to live for himself, and find his own dream. He didn't want to just be Griffith's dog anymore. He killed Adonis for this man, just to hear him spew this crap about how he has no friends, feh. So don't go saying Gatts just up and abandoned everyone for no good reason, when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

This part I have already covered pretty well in the above sections so I won't whip that dead mule any further.... ok maybe just a couple of more whacks just for fun.

There's a big ass difference you n00b. Gatts needed time to find himself. Griffith fucking sacrificed them! You just need to STFU with this big ass post of bullshit. If you don't know the difference between taking a journey to find yourself, and fucking killing people who are supposed to be your friends, then you need to get a reality check buddy. Gatts may have left them, but at least they could go on living. I'm not saying Gatts is a saint, but there's a big freakin difference.

Ok, finally we have come to the last part. I am tired of quickly looking through many volumes of this manga and straining my brain to remember where what happens and what not, so I'll make this quick. I'll start of by saying that any idiot can clearly see that there is a obvious difference between the action of leaving your friends for personal reasons and offering them up on a plate as the midday snack to a bunch of deformed demons for the sake of becoming the king of the said demons. The difference is in fact so clear that I thought people would be able to figure out that it was not the actual actions themselves that I was comparing to each other. If you re-read my post you will see that I said "only slightly different in nature", the key word being [/b]"nature"[/b] here. Actually maybe I should have used the words "in spirit" to make it even more clear, we are talking metaphors here after all.

Let's take a look at that, shall we; the nature of those two different acts. In spirit, Griffith decided to put his personal desires ahead of his friends. In spirit Guts also put his personal desires ahead of his friends. Griffith could not have achieved his goal of becoming king and keeping his friends at the same time and so he chose to stick with what he started with, his dream. Guts felt he couldn't stay with his friends and obtain his desire at the same time, so he gave them up. He says so himself in v09c01p10, and I quote "For the sake of Living an unknown future... Even though I may find something of worth, I've given up the present I had."

That is what I meant and I stay by it and I don't care to make it any more clear than that.
Now as a bonus I will tackle something else that is kind of bothering me, and that is the general demonization (pun) and vilification of Griffith for what he did; that being offering up his friends as a sacrifice for his desires. Starnum, you say that Griffith killed his friends, but he didn't. All he actually did was say the words "I will sacrifice" and the demons did the rest. But still I hear you say that he did never the less result in their ultimate death. And I say, yes, he did. He had been doing that since the very beginning by throwing them into battle after battle on his road to reach his golden castle while the mountain of corpses rose steadily. Thousands of enemies and friends had given up their lives for Griffiths dream and in v12c08 we see him realize that. If he just gave up wouldn't that have made their deaths meaningless? Yes it would, Griffith says so himself in a conversation with Casca in v07c01p22-23 after having done the nasty with the count. Did the Hawks not all join of their own free volition? Were all those who worshipped Griffith like a god not ready to sacrifice themselves for him and his dreams? All Griffith did was to take them up on the offer. But wait again, I hear you say Potato, I on the other hand will say Potato (uses alternate pronunciation).

Try and look at the following pages in which we hear several members of the Hawks say that they knew what they were getting into once they joined up. In v06c06p131, we once again return to the excellent conversation Griffith had with Charlotte by the fountain in which he says, and I quote "They serve me well. We've faced death many times. They are willing to sacrifice their lives for my dreams". Both Casca and Guts hear him say those words and only Guts decides that he doesn't want to be sacrificed at the altar of Griffiths dreams. Casca on the other hand stays behind. In Cascas case we have several other moments in which she makes it clear that she is willing to do anything for Griffith. I have chosen a few like v07c01p27, v09c09p187. Ricket too knew what he was getting into which is made pretty clear in the following pages v12c1p16 where after everyone has realized that Griffith is done for and there is talk about this being the end of the Hawks someone mentions that Casca could lead them but Ricket says, and I quote "We are the Hawks because of Griffith". In v09c08p163 Ricket says that everyone that stayed in the Band of the hawk even after a year of constant pursuit is there because they want to be. Then he once again says, and I quote "Without Griffith there would not be a Band of the Hawk".

Everyone who stayed behind did so out their devotion to their leader, the Hawk. It was a devotion that they were willing to give up their lives for. And giving up their lives for their leader was exactly what they did in the eclipse. Sure they were expecting to die heroically on a battlefield somewhere while serving their glorious crownless king, not being ripped to parts and devoured by a thousand hideous demons. But life has a funny way of not turning out like you imagined it would. There are many more examples, like a few in v08c08 but I won't mention them expect for this last one. In v05c02p65, after Griffith has told Guts what the Band of the Hawk is all about he tells him, and I quote "From now on, you belong to me. Fight on my behalf. I'll be the one who will decide your place of death."

Well, if that doesn't get the point through the Hawk members like a railroad spike through the skull then I don't know what does. He is basically saying that as long as you are a Hawk your life belongs to me to do with as I wish. That is a speech he could have held for many new Hawk members so they had nothing to complain about. They offered their lives to him and he took it. End of story.

Besides, uttering three little words is a lot easier than living the rest of your life as cripple burdened by the weight of your broken dreams.

Ok, that is it, I am out. I would apologize for the length of this response but you asked for it, so....
I like making big-ass posts so if anyone gives me a reason to do so I will not fret, you have been warned.

[MrFelony]

OR: should I rather bring this shit over to the stupid theories thread?

heh no i think it deserves to go in the stupid theories section



dont worry ill get around to reading it

[Skullkracker]

[BIG ASS POST ALERT! PEOPLE WITH LOW ATTENTION SPANS LOOK AWAY!]

Motherf shit!
Nice of you to share this with us, but who tha heck is gonna read through this?

Gosh! Took me all weekend, but now I Found the Edit button!
Wonder what comes next...

[MrFelony]

death. Mindwerks has placed poison needles in every mouse ever made so once you hit you 100th post id stay away from it. I read his long post, well most of it, and it does make sense over all.

to sum it up, guts is like griffith cause they both is greedy bastards. one thing that i see differently is the reason why guts left. I think he left because he was secretly jealous/envious of Griffith. he wanted to win casca from him, but he would never be able to truly do that. no concrete proof to back me up, i dont need it

[Skullkracker]

That saved me some time. Congrats MrF...
But I don't agree with this so I'm gonna have to read it after all...tomorrow...I don't think conversation's gonna go too far

[Femto]

Words^n

Holy mother-fuckin' God...

This is officially the longest post ev4r. I wish I hadn't used that pic so early.

What the hell do you do all day anyway?