Honourable Apostles

Post by **Starnum** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:18 am

lm wrote:I think it's gonna be more complicated than having the strongest between Guts and Griffith win.

When god appears to grant Griffiths wish he sais that he is the collective unconsious of all humans and that he forges human destiny according to their subconsious desires. At least that's what I remember.

According to this, god planned destiny in such a way that Griffith would be born to become the fifth godhand.

The question is, does Guts go against destiny by not being sacrificed or does god's planned destiny go deeper by including Guts' actions and his escape from "the feast"? The answer to this will determine the end I think.

Also, considering how Guts was born and the events of his life, I think god destined Guts to oppose Griffith and the godhand from the very begining.

Either way, Guts is the type of character that, from the very first volumes, you know he's gonna end up dying at the end of the story.

Um...no. *Shakes his head*

By the way, even though The Count's wife was fucking a goat statue, he still loved her. He had to, or else she wouldn't have counted as a sacrifice. One can see how he was able to make such a sacrifice though. As for his daughter, he probably just loved her more...and for good reason.

Post by **Dark_Zilo** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:32 pm

exactly Starnum
what i meant was that the count hated his wife in that moment (for betraying him) and probably that sentiment was stronger than the love he felt for her
but that event striped him of any nobility he had

Im: that's a great assumption on your part

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:20 pm

Ok, I have no idea what you're talking about IM....but I will try to explain in the most easiest way ever: comparing it with Matrix.

When god appears to grant Griffiths wish he sais that he is the collective unconsious of all humans and that he forges human destiny according to their subconsious desires. At least that's what I remember.

The matrix is kinda like Idea, it makes destiny for humans. Now Gats is like 'the one' Neo. And Griffith is like Agent Smith. Now, apply the concept of Matrix to Berserk.

The question is, does Guts go against destiny by not being sacrificed or does god's planned destiny go deeper by including Guts' actions and his escape from "the feast"? The answer to this will determine the end I think

If the matrix is so 'perfect', why would 'the one' exist? So Gats is like 'the one', he exists outside the system. The agents are like the god hands, they have loads of power blah blah.

Also, considering how Guts was born and the events of his life, I think god destined Guts to oppose Griffith and the godhand from the very begining.

Well, Neo was created to overthrow the system....

Either way, Guts is the type of character that, from the very first volumes, you know he's gonna end up dying at the end of the story

You know, that's exactly what happened with Neo and Agent Smith

....

Reason why I'm comparing it with Matrix is because nearly everyone gets it and watched it at least twice so they got in everything. Not many people understand the concept of Berserk, so an application of a similar concept should do the job. It's 1:20 am, so bare with me if it's nonsense. [/quote]

Post by **Dark_Zilo** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:08 pm

lol

sorry Eldo but i don't think that comparison is too good
i give you that it explains somethings in it in simple terms but i just can't see Matrix compared with Berserk (and i like Matrix a lot)

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:07 pm

Yeah, maybe you're right, Zilo. The matrix thing actually came to me from an omake I was doing. Why I used matrix to compare? It's because in both, some entity controls the fate of mankind, the main protagonists are similar, in the way they exist against fate. And everyone has watched it at least twice while Berserk is casted off the hard drive so people flock to ask questions. Simply put, everybody, including the idiots, have watched the matrix. So when you compare anything they don't understand, to something they do, it'll be easier to explain.

My same comparing method is like explaining to a child what quantum physics is in storytelling style.

Post by **InsaneNoodlyGuy** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:54 pm

Griff is out to establish a kingdom. He has said as much. Nobody ever said it would be a kingdom of or for humans...

Post by **Dark_Zilo** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:37 pm

i don't think he will exterminate mankind, only those who oppose him
but with Femto you never know

btw Eldo, that one of explaining quantom physics to a child is funny

Post by **dos.azn** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:09 pm

griffith needs the people's voice on his side to win. once he does get his kingdom, he'll prolly enslave them in a time of darkness.

btw what was the real purpose of this thread again?

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:19 pm

I guess it'll be like the first episode of Berserk anime where griffith is king. See how gloomy everyone is. And Griffith left an apostle in charge.

Post by **User** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:21 pm

lm wrote:I think it's gonna be more complicated than having the strongest between Guts and Griffith win.

When god appears to grant Griffiths wish he sais that he is the collective unconsious of all humans and that he forges human destiny according to their subconsious desires. At least that's what I remember.

According to this, god planned destiny in such a way that Griffith would be born to become the fifth godhand.

The question is, does Guts go against destiny by not being sacrificed or does god's planned destiny go deeper by including Guts' actions and his escape from "the feast"? The answer to this will determine the end I think.

Also, considering how Guts was born and the events of his life, I think god destined Guts to oppose Griffith and the godhand from the very begining.

Either way, Guts is the type of character that, from the very first volumes, you know he's gonna end up dying at the end of the story.

And Gats is there because people like us want him to be

. Yen and Yang baby

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:54 am

User wrote:
lm wrote:I think it's gonna be more complicated than having the strongest between Guts and Griffith win.

When god appears to grant Griffiths wish he sais that he is the collective unconsious of all humans and that he forges human destiny according to their subconsious desires. At least that's what I remember.

According to this, god planned destiny in such a way that Griffith would be born to become the fifth godhand.

The question is, does Guts go against destiny by not being sacrificed or does god's planned destiny go deeper by including Guts' actions and his escape from "the feast"? The answer to this will determine the end I think.

Also, considering how Guts was born and the events of his life, I think god destined Guts to oppose Griffith and the godhand from the very begining.

Either way, Guts is the type of character that, from the very first volumes, you know he's gonna end up dying at the end of the story.
And Gats is there because people like us want him to be . Yen and Yang baby

This thread has just crashed and burned....

Post by **Starnum** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:09 am

Well, it never had much promise anyway.

Post by **Dark_Zilo** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:16 am

anyways, this one should be buried since it died long ago

Post by **dos.azn** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:14 pm

what a great first post...

can only imagine how his nexts will be

Post by **Eldo** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:57 pm

dos.azn wrote:what a great first post...

can only imagine how his nexts will be

Yeah, I hate those first posters....they post once and disappear. They might be SPIES for other forums.

Post by **dos.azn** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:14 am

or just idiots like this guy

Post by **mcummi2** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:35 am

Honarable apostles does seem like an oxymoron, but some of these new guys seem to have some good qualities. We haven't seen any of them do many horribly evil acts, all they seem to have done is fight in wars, like any other soldier. Griffith, I just can't seem to what he is doing. When Mule joined up with the "new" hawks, the hawks seemed like "good guys" I mean the way they make allies with enemy soldiers, they way Griffith allows poeple to say goodbye to there loved ones.
The kushans seem to be like the bad guys doing all kinds of crazy stuff like breeding monsters and using prisoners as warriors. The only "evil" thing Griffith ever did was to sacrifice the hawks, but even they were a"at least at one point" willing to sacrifice themselves for him. Guts of course wasn't. The worst thing of course was his rape of Caska that was pure evil. When he was a godhand he was evil but we really only see him with the count.
I guess that's what makes Griffith a good character you don't really know whats going on with him. Protagonist and antagonist, which is which. And Guts has done a lot of evil things including killing little children and coming close to raping helpless Caska. Of course though we want to see Guts kill all those powerful apostles. The more we see them the more we want to see the epic battle that will ensue between guts and all of them. I got a little long winded, but there are my thoughts.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:02 am

Yeah, I hear you. Not bad, not bad.

Post by **Messatsu** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:46 pm

mcummi2 wrote:Honarable apostles does seem like an oxymoron, but some of these new guys seem to have some good qualities. We haven't seen any of them do many horribly evil acts, all they seem to have done is fight in wars, like any other soldier. Griffith, I just can't seem to what he is doing. When Mule joined up with the "new" hawks, the hawks seemed like "good guys" I mean the way they make allies with enemy soldiers, they way Griffith allows poeple to say goodbye to there loved ones.
The kushans seem to be like the bad guys doing all kinds of crazy stuff like breeding monsters and using prisoners as warriors. The only "evil" thing Griffith ever did was to sacrifice the hawks, but even they were a"at least at one point" willing to sacrifice themselves for him. Guts of course wasn't. The worst thing of course was his rape of Caska that was pure evil. When he was a godhand he was evil but we really only see him with the count.
I guess that's what makes Griffith a good character you don't really know whats going on with him. Protagonist and antagonist, which is which. And Guts has done a lot of evil things including killing little children and coming close to raping helpless Caska. Of course though we want to see Guts kill all those powerful apostles. The more we see them the more we want to see the epic battle that will ensue between guts and all of them. I got a little long winded, but there are my thoughts.

True these new apostles have the semblance of nobility. But thats just them trying to hold on to an old way of life, considering what they did to atain such power one canot consider. Persons who would willingly sacrife loved ones to erthernal torment, losse all nobility as a human beings. To be truly noble is the sacrife of ones self for others, not necesserely throu deeds of heroism ie: a brave knight who saves a woman from a beating or whatever. Sacrifice of ones self can be seen as the bettering of some one elses life, like Godo(not sure its spelled that way, but you know the blacksmith that died) he adopted a litle girl he found neer the ruins of her home, he saved that litle girl for no selfish reasons, not to attain anny high standing in anybodys eyes, nor any fame. He could have just left her there to either die or be forced into a life of constand survival, considering the type of world they live in. All in all, what i want to say is that nobility does not comme with either social standing or power or even apperence it comes from within the depts of the human soul, wich is something MOST apostle lack.

Post by **Ghostviper04** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:15 pm

If we're talking about the Ending for Berserk, I think we'll also have to factor in the child of Griffith and Caska. He will obviously affect the outcome in some way or another, in fact, he seems to have a lot of power already.

Just wanted to throw that out and see how and if it changes your views on the ending.

Post by **psi29a** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:29 pm

Ghostviper04: Hopefully you mean the child of Guts and Caska.

Post by **Ghostviper04** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:49 pm

Is he Gatts' child or Griffith's? I was led to believe that Griffith sired a child mainly because the kid was born almost directly after Caska got raped. But I could be wrong, it could be Gatts' kid who got corrupted by Griffith's sperm, but I'd rather not think of about that...

Post by **psi29a** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:05 pm

Ghostviper04 wrote:Is he Gatts' child or Griffith's? I was led to believe that Griffith sired a child mainly because the kid was born almost directly after Caska got raped. But I could be wrong, it could be Gatts' kid who got corrupted by Griffith's sperm, but I'd rather not think of about that...

Bingo!

It is implied that the corrupted fetus and mysterious child is Guts and Caska's child. The fetus was used as a vessel for Griffith's rebirth into the world, then later swalled up by the Egg apostle.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:14 pm

psi29a wrote:
Ghostviper04 wrote:Is he Gatts' child or Griffith's? I was led to believe that Griffith sired a child mainly because the kid was born almost directly after Caska got raped. But I could be wrong, it could be Gatts' kid who got corrupted by Griffith's sperm, but I'd rather not think of about that...
Bingo!

It is implied that the corrupted fetus and mysterious child is Guts and Caska's child. The fetus was used as a vessel for Griffith's rebirth into the world, then later swalled up by the Egg apostle.

I think that should be in the FAQ too.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:41 am

Messatsu: Very good point sir!

As for the fact about Gatts and Casca's child, which is definitely is their child, I agree that it should be in the FAQ. So I'll go add that now.