Berserk 307 - Falconia

[Rolos]

Miura even put in a reference to philosophy, with the 'It was like the very idea of "tree" itself'. I think that may have been a reference to Plato's theory of the Forms. Looks like Miura has been googling "tree" a lot lately.

Most writers create a fantasy world then write about it. Miura created a relatively normal world then turned it into a fantasy world throughout his story. Awesomeness. Now he's set up the stage to to continue the story

You know, I thought the exact same thing back when he introduced the name "Fantasia".
And as for the Platonic references...Do you remember how the chapter where the mock eclipse took place was named?

"Shadows of Idea". And before that there was a cave. Just think about it.

[Truesoul]

You know, I thought the exact same thing back when he introduced the name "Fantasia".
And as for the Platonic references...Do you remember how the chapter where the mock eclipse took place was named?

"Shadows of Idea". And before that there was a cave. Just think about it.

ooo I didn't think about that. I only learned about Plato's theories over the past month, and the last time I read the "fake" eclipse was long before then.

The fake eclipse took place in the real world.... thus making it a shadow of the real thing. I'm suddenly reminded of when Flora said to Schierke (was it then? or was it the skull knight?) about Guts looking at a shadow of the moon on the lake, and not being able to reach the true moon. I suppose the Griffith in this world is the shadow, and Femto is the true Griffith, with his true form being in the astral world.

So the original eclipse may have been the "true" form of the eclipse, in the astral world, with the second being a mere shadow in the real world. I know we all already knew that, but it's interesting to think about it from a different perspective.

I wonder if the berserker armour is Gut's path to creating a true form of himself in which he can fight in the astral world.

[Istvan]

I'm not sure, but I don't think Griffith left behind a "true" Femto version of himself in the abyss. My impression is that he truly has come to the matieral plane, it's not just a "shadow" version but his real self. My interpretation of what Flora said is that, as a high-astral being, nothing from the matieral plane (and nothing still bound by "fate" i.e. Idea) could harm Griffith. Hence I've seen the Dragonslayer as Guts best shot at killing Griffith, as it becomes more and more specialized at killing astral beings.

[The Herald]

either berserk will straighten itself, or it won't, but we can all be sure that that dragonslayer will do something to femto. but i'm sure what we'll see first is guts killing off griffith's henchmen one by one. even the 'nice' ones won't be safe. maybe mule and sonia, but that's because they're still human. sonia may be a mystic, but she's still young, she's been tricked by griffith, i don't think she knows everything, the whole scope of it. what i'm looking forward is to how all the other relationships will play out. like how the roderick-farnese-guts-casca thing will work out. and serpico too. isidro is simple, has a teenaged crush on shierke. in any case i think i'd have to write an angry letter to young animal if serpico turns out to be incestual, but i don't think he is. he had a lot of chances, and he never took him because he knew she was his sister.

[papasith]

actually now that you mention it i wonder how gutts will view all the normal humans that are current allied with griffith.
will they just be another enemy vut and dry?
or will he possibly see them as waiting to be betrayed by Griffith like the band of the hawk was?

[ranbir]

He'll see them as foolish, willing sacrifices for Griffith.

Because I think that's what we'll see. The human population willingly sacrificing themselves for him and the apostles and stuff.

[Istvan]

Some of the Apostles Gut's killed had human guards, and Guts never seemed to worry too much (or at all) about killing them. I don't see that changing either. My impression is that Guts figures anyone who makes a living as a soldier/mercenary has to accept the possibilty they'll be killed in combat. If they're not good enough to stay alive...tough luck.

[Mail]

True, but he's not just going to be facing mercenaries or soldiers anymore. We're talking about non-combatants here, and I don't think Guts--in his current mindset--is ready to slaughter civilians to get to Griffith. Unless he reverts to dog-mode. Then all bets are off.

[The Herald]

i thought dog fighting was illegal ...

anyways, what i meant was that guts would set out to kill the apostles. but i don't think he'd set out to kill mule or sonia. if they got in his way, sure he'd kill them, but if they weren't i don't think he'd care. hell, i can see sonia making her way to guts' side, after that encounter she had with schierke. mule too, since he seems pretty determined to go wherever sonia goes. aww, how cute.

and silat, when's that skinny bastard going to choose a side? honestly, i don't know if he was ever on anyone's side, but i sure hope he goes to guts'. silat's pretty cool if you ask me. be kind of a cool begrudging partnership, considering that in the manga it was silat's people that attacked casca's band of the hawk. but at that time silat was just a hired hand, like the band of the hawk used to be before they rose to prowess.

[revealer]

Whats the deal with everyone marking Griffith as evil?
He wasn't evil before the Eclipse. There he had to make a choice, and although he made a selfish one, he just followed his life dream that he still pursues.
And even after he became Femto he didn't make one single evil thing, quite the contrary.. He defended Midland, united everyone, even got apostles and humans to fight together.
Someone said that Griffith is guilty for fantasia monsters but isn't it Ganishkas fault?
About Caska, what if her mind returns to normal but the amnesia remains? That could be interesting maybe?

[DrPepperPro]

Have you read volume 3? That's enough reason, though I do keep in mind that Femto can do whatever he wants still.

If anyone's is at fault for the worlds merging, it'd be the the IoE, but even then that would be humans' "fault."

[revealer]

Just re-read vol3 but didn't see the reason you mentioned.. ?

[DrPepperPro]

Femto is an asshole towards Guts, basically.

[revealer]

Femto is an asshole towards Guts, basically.

Well everyone is an asshole towards someone at one point, doesn't make them evil, hell, doesn't even make them bad so no, I'm not even convinced by close by that argument.

[dialdfordesi]

Femto is evil because he sacrificed everyone's lives in order to achieve his dream of being ruler of Midland. In the chapter where he went gay to win the war, he felt such remorse over that one boy's death, but at the eclipse, he rid himself of that guilt. He removed his humanity in order to achieve his dream. Basically it is the fact that he does not care anymore about human life that makes him evil.

Now Guts may not care about your life if you get in his way, but he still retains his humanity. He obviously cares about the people he travels with. Even though he cares more about his vengeance, I don't think he'd want to sacrifice any of them to kill Griffith.

[The Herald]

But isn't that the ultimate question of Berserk? What if Guts did? I've been worried about that happening ever since I started reading the manga.

[Rolos]

But isn't that the ultimate question of Berserk? What if Guts did? I've been worried about that happening ever since I started reading the manga.

Well, thats has been one of the major plot-points of Berserk, Gutts struggling to remain human but still trying to get Griffith. And having a hard time doing so.
Personally, I want him to cast aside everything in order to accomplish his vengeance, but at the same time I don't. Its very confusing.

Whats the deal with everyone marking Griffith as evil?
He wasn't evil before the Eclipse. There he had to make a choice, and although he made a selfish one, he just followed his life dream that he still pursues.
And even after he became Femto he didn't make one single evil thing, quite the contrary.. He defended Midland, united everyone, even got apostles and humans to fight together.
Someone said that Griffith is guilty for fantasia monsters but isn't it Ganishkas fault?
About Caska, what if her mind returns to normal but the amnesia remains? That could be interesting maybe?

Well, thats what you would say if you only saw it from the outside. From that perspective, It certainly would appear that Griffith is, in fact, a good guy. A little too extreme in the measures he's willing to take to achieve what he wants, may be, but a good guy nonetheless.
I mean, he's brought peace, unity and tolerance to the physical world. Hell, he even changed the world so everyone could realize their dreams.
He's the fucking Messiah!

There's this little detail though. He's kinda using the soul of every sapient being in the world as fuel. So yeah...


PS: Personally, I think calling people evil is just retarded. They are either with you (or your ideals and goals) or against you. And then there's that people in the middle you don't care about.
Griffith is incredible, he's one of the most awesome characters I 've ever read of. I admire him.
But he's too inhuman, and the way the story has been told makes it much easier to empathize with Gutts and his burning hate towards Griffith.
Miura probably intended it that way. He's just that good.

[The Prince]

But isn't that the ultimate question of Berserk? What if Guts did? I've been worried about that happening ever since I started reading the manga.

Well, thats has been one of the major plot-points of Berserk, Gutts struggling to remain human but still trying to get Griffith. And having a hard time doing so.
Personally, I want him to cast aside everything in order to accomplish his vengeance, but at the same time I don't. Its very confusing.

Whats the deal with everyone marking Griffith as evil?
He wasn't evil before the Eclipse. There he had to make a choice, and although he made a selfish one, he just followed his life dream that he still pursues.
And even after he became Femto he didn't make one single evil thing, quite the contrary.. He defended Midland, united everyone, even got apostles and humans to fight together.
Someone said that Griffith is guilty for fantasia monsters but isn't it Ganishkas fault?
About Caska, what if her mind returns to normal but the amnesia remains? That could be interesting maybe?

Well, thats what you would say if you only saw it from the outside. From that perspective, It certainly would appear that Griffith is, in fact, a good guy. A little too extreme in the measures he's willing to take to achieve what he wants, may be, but a good guy nonetheless.
I mean, he's brought peace, unity and tolerance to the physical world. Hell, he even changed the world so everyone could realize their dreams.
He's the fucking Messiah!

There's this little detail though. He's kinda using the soul of every sapient being in the world as fuel. So yeah...


PS: Personally, I think calling people evil is just retarded. They are either with you (or your ideals and goals) or against you. And then there's that people in the middle you don't care about.
Griffith is incredible, he's one of the most awesome characters I 've ever read of. I admire him.
But he's too inhuman, and the way the story has been told makes it much easier to empathize with Gutts and his burning hate towards Griffith.
Miura probably intended it that way. He's just that good.

Griffith is a backstabbing bitch and is evil as f#ck.

[Istvan]

PS: Personally, I think calling people evil is just retarded. They are either with you (or your ideals and goals) or against you. And then there's that people in the middle you don't care about.
Griffith is incredible, he's one of the most awesome characters I 've ever read of. I admire him.
But he's too inhuman, and the way the story has been told makes it much easier to empathize with Gutts and his burning hate towards Griffith.
Miura probably intended it that way. He's just that good.

I disagree. Some people (examples: Hitler, Stalin, Griffith, etc.) are simply evil. There are a lot of times when calling someone "evil" basically just means that they oppose/disagree with you, but there are also cases when "evil" is the only label that fits. In Griffith's case, let's see he: had all of the people who cared/supported him most in the world killed and their souls sent to hell; killed at least one (and possibly more that we haven't seen) old lady who was living peacefully on her own simply because she might have eventually become a threat to him; formed an army and, when any of its members die sends their souls to hell (you yourself pointed this out in your post, Rolos); helped bring about the slaughter of an entire city so he could be reborn in the world; brought about this new world business which has already led to mass suffering/death (the Kushan emperor didn't bring it about, Griffith used him to bring it about) and will presumably cause more such as time goes on; and so on. I don't see how any label other than "evil" really works.

Mind you, he's an awesome character, and in many ways I like him a lot, but that doesn't stop me from realizing that he's evil.

[Rolos]

That's the thing. I don't think Stalin or Hitler were evil.
They were wrong. They defended the wrong ideals.
Besides, they both lost (I mean, Stalin lost in retrospective, with all that "image cleansing" that Jrushchov loved so much).
They were both statesmen who defended very, very harsh policies, and they took it to totalitarian extremes.
I think of them as retarded idealists, not "evil men".

[dialdfordesi]

But isn't that the ultimate question of Berserk? What if Guts did? I've been worried about that happening ever since I started reading the manga.

That question is implicated in the story itself through the berserker's armor. When Guts wears it, he loses the human side and drowns in his rage, allowing the wolf to manifest in the armor. It directly parallels the transformation that the apostles go through when they abandon their humanity. The count abandoned his love for his wife so he could kill her for betraying his love, and he transformed into the slug. The pikraf girl loved her parents but sacrificed them because they were fighting in the forest, a place that was so special to her that she could not take her parents fighting anymore. After the transformation, the girl had nothing but hatred towards adults.

Personally, I want Guts to stay human, because then his victory would not be a phyrric one. If he beats Griffith without losing his humanity, he's beaten the God Hand at their own game. If he loses himself to the berserker armor and beats Griffith, he'll be just like them. If he loses, well, he'll have the same role as the Skull Knight

Sorry about the whole literary analysis angle going on. I've always thought that in 100 years or so, Berserk could be seen as a staple of world literature (or at least geek literature) because its story and symbolism is on the same level as some literary epics.

That's the thing. I don't think Stalin or Hitler were evil.
They were wrong. They defended the wrong ideals.
Besides, they both lost (I mean, Stalin lost in retrospective, with all that "image cleansing" that Jrushchov loved so much).
They were both statesmen who defended very, very harsh policies, and they took it to totalitarian extremes.
I think of them as retarded idealists, not "evil men".

Looks like I post too slowly...

I agree with you.
Sponsoring genocide and enforcing homicides (killing outside of the legal boundaries) as a dictator are quite inherently evil acts. Whether people are inherently evil may be a different discussion, but at the least, they did evil things.

[Rolos]

Dude, that was brilliantly well put! Thumbs up man!

PS: Ah, the "inherently evil" thing. I think it depends. From the point of view of a society, they most definitely exist. Form the point of view of a particular citizen, it depends on the circumstances.
For a society, murder is inherently evil. On the other hand, if, for whatever circumstances, you need a person "out of the way" and the potential benefits outweigh the risks, it is not evil to kill someone. As long as you can pull it off and no one ever finds out.

[The Herald]

Griffith's one of those characters you love to hate ... or hate to love. In any case I still have a doll of him with all my other dolls that aren't evil, like Guts, Goku, and R2D2 ... which I guess I'm relating to say that I still like him? Oof, all I know is that in the eyes of the plebians he's the messiah, quite obviously with that whole bird thing. Hell, their religious symbol is a bird with a snake.

Side Note: I always thought it looked sorta like if you mixed a cross with that double snake medical symbol. But at least it isn't as outrageous as the Fullmetal Alchemist symbol Al has on the back of his jacket, I got in trouble in school once for having a t-shirt with that symbol on it.

Back to main train of thought: Griffith is evil because we know what he's done, but he's the messiah to the people because they've only seen the good. Makes me wonder about what Miura's trying to say about world religions, something along the lines of don't take them at face value. Like how the Catholic church funded witch hunts and the Inquisition. But this is even a bigger scale, isn't it? Something more than human? Shit, you could talk about Berserk forever, all the questions Miura has raised. All I want to see is them on Skellig already . They got on the goddamn boat when I was 17, I'm almost 21 now. Only one more day now ........

Side Note 2: woot, my thousandth post

[dialdfordesi]

Dude, that was brilliantly well put! Thumbs up man!

PS: Ah, the "inherently evil" thing. I think it depends. From the point of view of a society, they most definitely exist. Form the point of view of a particular citizen, it depends on the circumstances.
For a society, murder is inherently evil. On the other hand, if, for whatever circumstances, you need a person "out of the way" and the potential benefits outweigh the risks, it is not evil to kill someone. As long as you can pull it off and no one ever finds out.

It depends on what domain you use to describe the act. If you are talking about the consequences of an act that can be thought of as evil, then yes, if the benefits outweigh the costs, an act can be okay. If, however, you look at intent behind an action, the act will more often than not be evil (unless you stretch the truth, aka, "I killed this man because he's a law enforcement individual, so he's armed and could have shot my kid who was caught stealing." Bad example I know, but it's 5:30 am here and I got a test at 7). I judge the morality of the act by a mixture of it that incorporates intent and the context in which the action is performed but I do not put too much emphasis on the consequences of actions or the character of the person committing the act. If you have intent to kill someone for selfish reasons, yet you only give them the concussion, it does not change the fact that you wanted them dead, and that's why consequence plays a smaller role in judging the morality of actions for me. As for a person's character, a person that does a lot of volunteering with disadvantaged children may seem like a person with good character, but child molesters put themselves in these situations to remove suspicion and to have better access to children.

[The Herald]

Amazing. Thanks for the hard work EG!!

Is 308 really coming out the 9th?

Any news?