Berserk 296 - Thundering Heavens

[The Herald]

Well, I really don't trust Griffith anymore, and I doubt him being king of Midland or the world for that matter, will be a very good thing at all. However, just to play the devil's advocate, I will remind you that Idea told Griffith that their wills were the same, and that it was up to Griffith whether to save the world, or to damn it. So really, we'll just have to wait and see what he does. Besides, I don't think the world will be any worse without Griffith than it is with him, but that's just my assumption. I wouldn't call Idea God, or Gatts the Anti-Christ. I'd rather not compare the story to Christianity, but if I had to label Idea, he'd be the devil. I'm not saying there's another entity such as "God" present in the world of Berserk...but still...Idea is the "cause" of all evil...that's good enough for me to label him as the devil rather than God. Besides, Griffith fits the description of the Anti-Christ much better, IMO. He is an extremely charismatic person who's fooling the nations (or so we can assume) after all. *shrugs*

I've always thought of the concept of God within the world of Berserk as the Deistic approach. He is the great clock maker who has created everything and just lets it follow through. If the world of Berserk were a commentary on religion, which would be pretty hard for it not to be labeled as such with the vatican and whatnot, God himself isn't really involved. It's more like the forces involved are like the whole battle going on between angels and devils, like in Constatine. Though Berserk is much better written and the battle of the higher powers is created by the people. The people have created the evil devils, aka the godhand, through the idea, but they have also created their angels, which are the characters like Guts and the Skull Knight. So, in essence, God could still be around, as the creator, but Berserk shows the people to be their own proctors. Then there are always the misnomers of the elves. They're still confusing me.

[Starnum]

Yeah, I kind of know what you mean. However, as far as we know Idea is the closest thing to a god in Berserk, I just wouldn't compare him to the Christian God, or any other monotheistic "God" I know of. *shrugs*

[Istvan]

Then there are always the misnomers of the elves. They're still confusing me.

My understanding is that the elves (and all the other magical creatures, like the trolls and kelpies and what not) were also created by humanity, just like Idea. People told stories about them, and others believed in them, and so they came into being, although do to the level of belief they were never even close to the power of Idea. As the Vatican religion (whatever it's called in Berserk) spread, the belief in elves and such faded, and so they likewise tended to fade from the everyday world.

Yeah, I kind of know what you mean. However, as far as we know Idea is the closest thing to a god in Berserk, I just wouldn't compare him to the Christian God, or any other monotheistic "God" I know of. *shrugs*

I agree. Really, Idea reminds me more of the kind of "god's" one gets in polytheistic or D&D type structures than any sort of monotheistic "God." With the difference being that (as far as we know) Idea is the only "god" in the Berserk universe.

[Aetherfukz]

Well, I really don't trust Griffith anymore, and I doubt him being king of Midland or the world for that matter, will be a very good thing at all. However, just to play the devil's advocate, I will remind you that Idea told Griffith that their wills were the same, and that it was up to Griffith whether to save the world, or to damn it. So really, we'll just have to wait and see what he does. Besides, I don't think the world will be any worse without Griffith than it is with him, but that's just my assumption.

Well... if Griffith still has his own will, and his will be done... that probably won't make his reign anymore better. As others said he is a clear megalomaniac. He wanted his own kingdom still after being tortured, so he "just" sacrificed all that was dear to him in the hawks. Can such a person really be a true and just king? I think not. If he wants another country he will just invade it not thinking of the populace or the casulties.

As Guts once said, a true and good leader cares about his troops first, and about everything else second. Pretty much the opposite of Griffith.

I wouldn't call Idea God, or Gatts the Anti-Christ. I'd rather not compare the story to Christianity, but if I had to label Idea, he'd be the devil. I'm not saying there's another entity such as "God" present in the world of Berserk...but still...Idea is the "cause" of all evil...that's good enough for me to label him as the devil rather than God. Besides, Griffith fits the description of the Anti-Christ much better, IMO. He is an extremely charismatic person who's fooling the nations (or so we can assume) after all. *shrugs*

I think exactly the same way. The scene were he was sending the lost souls to hell was looking like some kind of miracle while behind the scenes it was eternal damnation. Pretty much the thing the anti-christ would do.

[Arcandus]

"What defines GOOD?"

Good is something that makes the life in comunity possible or make the community life better. The morals, values are different for every comunity, but what is good for these communities is what make them persevere. The Greeks started making laws when they had the first polis, on the Bible, the 10 testaments(sorry i dont know the exact term for this in english) where given to Maome by "god" when he was having trouble with the people stealling, killing, etc. Good is not defined by relligion, but on older days, you couldnt go against god's word(and nowadays for alot of people its still true), so it was a good way to define good through it, but its not the only way, as we can see the greeks, and us, define what is good through laws, more precisily through the constitution.

My first almost big post lol. I had to make a monography defining the difference between good and evil some time ago.

[Istvan]

"What defines GOOD?"

Good is something that makes the life in comunity possible or make the community life better. The morals, values are different for every comunity, but what is good for these communities is what make them persevere. The Greeks started making laws when they had the first polis, on the Bible, the 10 testaments(sorry i dont know the exact term for this in english) where given to Maome by "god" when he was having trouble with the people stealling, killing, etc. Good is not defined by relligion, but on older days, you couldnt go against god's word(and nowadays for alot of people its still true), so it was a good way to define good through it, but its not the only way, as we can see the greeks, and us, define what is good through laws, more precisily through the constitution.

My first almost big post lol. I had to make a monography defining the difference between good and evil some time ago.

Let's say that's all true; I still don't see the point. No civilization would call what Idea strives for "good" (it exists to cause and to be the cause of suffering), and it is not the focus of a religion. No one consciously worships Idea, it simply grants what almost everyone desires - a "reason" for evil and for their suffering.

[hbi2k]

Let's say that's all true; I still don't see the point. No civilization would call what Idea strives for "good" (it exists to cause and to be the cause of suffering), and it is not the focus of a religion. No one consciously worships Idea, it simply grants what almost everyone desires - a "reason" for evil and for their suffering.

Although it does bear noting that the central symbol of the Berserk world's pseudo-Christianity bears a suspicious resemblance to Idea (perhaps combined with a stylized hawk):



It seems at least functionally omnipotent; the only function of a traditional Judeo-Christian monotheistic deity it specifically does not fulfill is that of creation; by its own account, it had no part in the creation of the world or humanity. Not sure what (if any) relevance that has to the topic at hand, but it's something to mull over.

If the church of the Berserk world and its followers believe in and worship an omnipotent God and believe the results of God's actions (i.e. the state of the world in general: if He's omnipotent then everything that happens is either His doing or, at least, was not prevented by Him) are "good," and if the state of the world in general is in fact the result of Idea's actions rather than God's (who may or may not even exist in the world of Berserk), then it's not a far cry to say that they in fact worship Idea by proxy. They simply lack the information to be fully aware of all the implications of that worship.

[Arcandus]

Let's say that's all true; I still don't see the point. No civilization would call what Idea strives for "good" (it exists to cause and to be the cause of suffering), and it is not the focus of a religion. No one consciously worships Idea, it simply grants what almost everyone desires - a "reason" for evil and for their suffering.

I wasnt talking about berserk, just coz this was somewhere here on the thread. But anyway, If Griffith would kill the big mother fucking monster, he would make possible the life in comunitty again, and he would be what people would call a good person, he would be like a messiah(the pope is saying he was sent by god, and the pope autority on those age was almost god's own words/ besides people are having visions with the white Hawk). Being the good Messiah, people would do whatever he would ask to do, even if it would require a "sacrife" for a greater good, people would be blind by his charisma, and worship Idea through Griffith.

Maybe Idea wants people to worship him, or, who knows, all he wants is to devore all the world or whatever. He is a god, besides that, he represents the desire to make evil, I would say more, he is evil itself, why would he care about causing agony through all eternity and have a chance for good to persevere once again if he can destroy everything now and forfill his "duty". This way Griffith would be screwed, he wouldnt have his stupid reign....he and all the apostiles, including the emperor would forfill the task that their creator gave them...maybe idea just promissed them their desires just to make them wish to do what he wants them to do coz he couldnt do. Idead "created" them, so he probabily would have the power to destroy.

Anyway, that is all hypotetical, and I hope it doesnt happend. There is Guts and his party, and a lot of people that wont let Griffithdo whatever he is trying to do. I'm tired of typing, cya.

[Aetherfukz]

"What defines GOOD?"

Good is something that makes the life in comunity possible or make the community life better. The morals, values are different for every comunity, but what is good for these communities is what make them persevere. The Greeks started making laws when they had the first polis, on the Bible, the 10 testaments(sorry i dont know the exact term for this in english) where given to Maome by "god" when he was having trouble with the people stealling, killing, etc. Good is not defined by relligion, but on older days, you couldnt go against god's word(and nowadays for alot of people its still true), so it was a good way to define good through it, but its not the only way, as we can see the greeks, and us, define what is good through laws, more precisily through the constitution.

My first almost big post lol. I had to make a monography defining the difference between good and evil some time ago.

Some say without evil there cannot be good, because good is the anathema of evil. Without light there can't be shadow.

[Istvan]

Some say without evil there cannot be good, because good is the anathema of evil. Without light there can't be shadow.

People say that, but it's not entirely true. More accurately, without a contrast it is impossible to understand the concepts in question, or even to recognize them as concepts. One cannot understand good without evil, or light without darkness. Yet if everything was light, no darkness at all, there would still be light (although there would be no word for it, nor any concept of it as a thing, since it would be impossible to imagine its lack), so it is inacurate to claim that there can't be light without darkness, or good without evil.

who knows, all he wants is to devore all the world or whatever. He is a god, besides that, he represents the desire to make evil, I would say more, he is evil itself, why would he care about causing agony through all eternity and have a chance for good to persevere once again if he can destroy everything now and forfill his "duty". This way Griffith would be screwed, he wouldnt have his stupid reign....he and all the apostiles, including the emperor would forfill the task that their creator gave them...maybe idea just promissed them their desires just to make them wish to do what he wants them to do coz he couldnt do. Idead "created" them, so he probabily would have the power to destroy.

I doubt that Idea would have any such desires. Remember, without humanity it would cease to exist (and even if it continued, would no longer have a reason to exist); also it seems to be more about suffering than simple destruction, which is (presumably) part of why Griffith is the chosen, not the new giant Emperor.

[Rolos]

What was originally being debated here was whether Griffith's reign is going to be beneficial for humanity or not.
While re-reading my newly acquired dark horse released Berserk collection (You know, the real stuff. I bought it during my short stay at a friend's apartment in NY. It was expensive, but its totally worth it.) I think I may have stumbled on something that will help us the find answer for that question.
This is what the behelit apostle told Luca (the brave prostitute,not the puffy haired coward) according to the official translation, approved by Miura himself:

Behelit apostle: I crawled out of my hole......and closely observed the newly arrived humans.
And the ones I glimpsed there....would fall down dead, absurdly and indiscriminately.
Then the suffering and fear of the living....trying to escape....that death.
The deceit-filled system established to conceal that chaos.
The people caught between the order of......the crooked system and death.
The bizarre festivals where with their own hands....They gave shape to the shapeless fear they wished to escape.
Both the hunter and the hunted.....
Everyone of the threatened
Was enthralled by heat.
The World.....................was ugly.
My garden was buried by...........the debris of that ugly world.


Luca: What the hell do you mean to do?....This grudge....are you going to take revenge on the people in Albion?


Behelit apostle: One time.....I caught sight of a certain girl.
The girl lived by selling her body to men.
She was possessed by disease....near to death.....and about to be crushed.....at any time by a world full of fear.
But the girl had something to rely on. The leader of her group.....gathered girls together and lived heartily through the harsh days.


Luca: Nina.....Nina and me?


Behelit apostle: The girl clung to her....she took refuge with her like a torch in the night.
But the torch....didn't just cover the girl in warmth.
It threw light upon an.....inflamed wound hidden by the dark.


Luca: ...............................


Behelit apostle: But those threatened by the dark....can by no means ever let go of a torch.
All they can do is stare in blank surprise at their illuminated, disgustingly cruel selves.....and continue to suffer it....
and to protect their stunted self-esteem...they depend on it......all the while hating it.
Cravenly.....deceitfully.
I, too, while abhorring this world that only buried me and crushed me.....cannot escape from that light.
No......when it comes to those humans mad with fear, swarming like bugs beneath the tower......nothing will ever change.
The ugly....the craven.....the deceitful....the threatened.....they who cling as they hate.
There is......but one thing we......truly desire.
It is the definitive....missing piece between....the old world and the new.
Namely........{ a reason }

If we all take as granted that what he was going to say (we never got to know what he told Luca) was that the difference between this world and the new was that the new one was going to have a reason, and that if we assume that what he meant by "when it comes to those humans mad with fear, swarming like bugs beneath the tower......nothing will ever change" was that even in his new world there was going to be suffering, then I think we can safely conclude that, as Itsvan has repeated quite frequently, during Griffith's reign people will still suffer, but there is going to be a reason for that suffering, or at least thats how they are going to perceive it.


PD: hbi2k......where did you get the lost chapter? I have been looking for it for ages! I only have the script -what is said in the chapter- but my efforts to find the chapter itself have all failed miserably. Would you mind telling me where to find it?



I am not saying you are like Puck......I am just saying that I am willing to degrade myself to that level to finally get my hands (or eyes) on the lost chapter.

[Buuhan1]

Thanks for another quality release, Evil Genius!

God, I am so happy to see Guts and co. again. I am always so damn bored and confused when it's concentrating on Griffith and his huge ass party.

Lost chapter? Is that the one where Griffith talks to God before he becomes Femto? That was included in the volume releases from Band of Hawk scanlations. At the time of me reading it, I didn't even know it was lost.

[The Herald]

You can find the lost chapter at Skullknight.net, that's where I think I saw it. It's where the 'idea' talks to Griffith, and that's all I'll say. In any case, the Idea I find closely resembles the Christian Satan and Griffith the anti-Christ described in the the last book of the bible, the man that is supposed to bring about the apocalypse. All literature can be linked to some kind of real world idea or history. Using the similarities logically, Griffith should bring about the apocalypse of the Berserk world, or as the girl said, 'the end of all logic'. That's all I could suggest that's what she meant. Berserk's world's theology, in it's set up, is too closely related to Christianity, at least Catholicism, to be ignored. Though, because the god of this world is ultimately Miura, only he can determine what will happen.

[Aetherfukz]

People say that, but it's not entirely true. More accurately, without a contrast it is impossible to understand the concepts in question, or even to recognize them as concepts. One cannot understand good without evil, or light without darkness. Yet if everything was light, no darkness at all, there would still be light (although there would be no word for it, nor any concept of it as a thing, since it would be impossible to imagine its lack), so it is inacurate to claim that there can't be light without darkness, or good without evil.

Completely agree with you there. That's what I wanted to say but I didn't have the time to word it properly (posting at work and all that )

[Arcandus]

Some say without evil there cannot be good, because good is the anathema of evil. Without light there can't be shadow.

People say that, but it's not entirely true. More accurately, without a contrast it is impossible to understand the concepts in question, or even to recognize them as concepts. One cannot understand good without evil, or light without darkness. Yet if everything was light, no darkness at all, there would still be light (although there would be no word for it, nor any concept of it as a thing, since it would be impossible to imagine its lack), so it is inacurate to claim that there can't be light without darkness, or good without evil.

who knows, all he wants is to devore all the world or whatever. He is a god, besides that, he represents the desire to make evil, I would say more, he is evil itself, why would he care about causing agony through all eternity and have a chance for good to persevere once again if he can destroy everything now and forfill his "duty". This way Griffith would be screwed, he wouldnt have his stupid reign....he and all the apostiles, including the emperor would forfill the task that their creator gave them...maybe idea just promissed them their desires just to make them wish to do what he wants them to do coz he couldnt do. Idead "created" them, so he probabily would have the power to destroy.

I doubt that Idea would have any such desires. Remember, without humanity it would cease to exist (and even if it continued, would no longer have a reason to exist); also it seems to be more about suffering than simple destruction, which is (presumably) part of why Griffith is the chosen, not the new giant Emperor.

All right. But if there is a god that represents evil where is the "good" god. While there are monsters created by god, there are nothig besides humans that have gone beyond their human power with their own will. Thats maybe why I like Berserk, its not a fight against good and evil, its just like everyone fighting for their desires, or dreams.

Anyway, its very difficult to find one perfect concept for abstract stuff, Sócrates is one good example of that, that concept was just an generalization. And thanks for editing my post, unfortunatly my in english is not that good, but i like the discution you guys post in here, and this time i had to post hehe.

[Istvan]

All right. But if there is a god that represents evil where is the "good" god. While there are monsters created by god, there are nothig besides humans that have gone beyond their human power with their own will.

Why does there have to be one? As near as we can tell, in the Berserk universe there is no "good" God. It's not that there isn't the concept of "good," as there clearly is, or that good isn't important to people, but the nature of phenomenon. Nobody (or almost nobody) asks why something good happens to them, they just accept it. But when something horrible happens it is very common for people to ask (God, or just screaming at the sky) why this had to happen. Idea was created to be that why. Since there is no countering demand for good, no Idea of Good was created. That's my understanding, anyway.

[hbi2k]

Why does there have to be one? As near as we can tell, in the Berserk universe there is no "good" God. It's not that there isn't the concept of "good," as there clearly is, or that good isn't important to people, but the nature of phenomenon. Nobody (or almost nobody) asks why something good happens to them, they just accept it. But when something horrible happens it is very common for people to ask (God, or just screaming at the sky) why this had to happen. Idea was created to be that why. Since there is no countering demand for good, no Idea of Good was created. That's my understanding, anyway.

Well, Flora DOES reference "God" once or twice. I'm thinking specifically of chapter 203, in which she says, "God gave them [Guts and his party] a destiny... this encounter." She would know what she's talking about: she's seems to have more reliable knowledge of the metaphysics of the Berserk universe than just about anyone. So either there really IS a "good" God with a capital "G" in Berserk, or she's referring to the Idea of Evil and Guts was meant by its manipulation of causality to survive the Eclipse / go through everything he's gone through since. The latter doesn't seem particularly likely, though-- she certainly didn't act as if his God-given destiny was a bad thing or something to be dreaded / avoided.

I suppose it might be an issue with the translation (I have that chapter in the Hawks scanlation, I didn't discover EG until later), too.

[The Herald]

At this point one question begs to be asked: how will Berserk end? Will it be the classic revenge/ self destruction story where Guts will destroy Griffith, but in doing so will destroy himself, or will the whole universe of Berserk be unravelled and explained, at least for Guts and his companions? The possibility exists that the Skull Knight knows everything, and that is why he was corrupted. A good example of that is Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the Nazis were destroyed because they opened the ark and sought the answers, while Indy closed his eyes, not wanting to know, thereby saving himself. But which one is Guts, the Nazis or Indy? I'm sure there's a better analogy for this, but Indiana Jones is easy to understand

[The Prince]

What are the chances that Berserk gets a happy ending?

- Climaxes with Guts killing Griffith.

Where killing Griffith salvages all the dead souls from the Eclipse, we get to see all the souls thanking Guts as they ascend to heaven.

- Guts and Caska get married and adopt Isidro. Open up a Blacksmith studio with Rickert.

- Puck dies in violent yet humerous fashion.

- We get to see the Skull-Night and Void talk out their differences....................

[Istvan]

What are the chances that Berserk gets a happy ending?

- Climaxes with Guts killing Griffith.

Where killing Griffith salvages all the dead souls from the Eclipse, we get to see all the souls thanking Guts as they ascend to heaven.

- Guts and Caska get married and adopt Isidro. Open up a Blacksmith studio with Rickert.

- Puck dies in violent yet humerous fashion.

- We get to see the Skull-Night and Void talk out their differences....................

Some of those probably deserve to be in the stupid theories thread.

[The Prince]

What are the chances that Berserk gets a happy ending?

- Climaxes with Guts killing Griffith.

Where killing Griffith salvages all the dead souls from the Eclipse, we get to see all the souls thanking Guts as they ascend to heaven.

- Guts and Caska get married and adopt Isidro. Open up a Blacksmith studio with Rickert.

- Puck dies in violent yet humerous fashion.

- We get to see the Skull-Night and Void talk out their differences....................

Some of those probably deserve to be in the stupid theories thread.

Funny, this isn't the first time you have made this suggestion in regards to one of my posts.

[Arcandus]

What are the chances that Berserk gets a happy ending?

- Climaxes with Guts killing Griffith.

Where killing Griffith salvages all the dead souls from the Eclipse, we get to see all the souls thanking Guts as they ascend to heaven.

- Guts and Caska get married and adopt Isidro. Open up a Blacksmith studio with Rickert.

- Puck dies in violent yet humerous fashion.

- We get to see the Skull-Night and Void talk out their differences....................

uhahuahuauhauhahuauhuah Puck dies ftw.

[Wib]

Thank you, My Friend.

[The Prince]

Is a preview for 297 out yet?

[KrazyIvan]

I failed to find the preview on the young animal site, but:
from http://www.theblackswordsman.com/.
Furthermore there is a raw posted on http://www.raw-paradise.com.