Newbie Berserk Discussion Thread

[hbi2k]

You'll have to be more specific. Do you mean the hill of swords fight? In that case, the answer is probably (although Griffith would deny it) because Griffith has started to feel things for Guts again. Read his thoughts, they're pretty clear on the issue.

I reread that chapter recently. I think it's kind of funny how hard Griffith tries to rationalize it away. "Yeah, that was just my stolen fetus-body acting up again. Yeah, that's the ticket." BS. I don't think Griffith's nearly as immune to remorse as he likes to pretend he is. That's what makes him such a great villain and overall effed-up character: he knows that the bad things he does are bad, he truly cares about the people he betrays, but then he does it anyway.

[MrFelony]

I think it's going to kill guts and turn him into something supernatural like SK

I doubt that since Gutts has always been trying to stay as human as possible, the fact that he misses his arm proves that.
He fights for the things he treasures, I think his body means a lot to him.

The Elfes might be able to lift the curse from the armor and give it an enhancement, or enchance the sword...but somehow I keep having the feeling that the demon inside Gutts will always be around no matter what they do to the armor.

I dont think that it will actually happen without a lot of reasoning no muira's part. I could see it killing him if Guts had to kill a lot of the beefy new apostles at the same time, but of course I bet shierke would intervene and they would try to run away again . anyway i havent read berserk for many months so I'm not quite sure where exactly the plot has taken itself

[Berserked]

I think it's going to kill guts and turn him into something supernatural like SK

I doubt that since Gutts has always been trying to stay as human as possible, the fact that he misses his arm proves that.
He fights for the things he treasures, I think his body means a lot to him.

The Elfes might be able to lift the curse from the armor and give it an enhancement, or enchance the sword...but somehow I keep having the feeling that the demon inside Gutts will always be around no matter what they do to the armor.

I dont think that it will actually happen without a lot of reasoning no muira's part. I could see it killing him if Guts had to kill a lot of the beefy new apostles at the same time, but of course I bet shierke would intervene and they would try to run away again . anyway i havent read berserk for many months so I'm not quite sure where exactly the plot has taken itself

Muira has constantly thrown us (me at least) off balance on theories.
If Gutts were to die and become or return different (stronger, altered) ofcourse it would have a lot of reasoning and prolly a whole nother volume to cover those reasons.
But since Muira has been keeping Gutts human all this time I don't think he will divert from that path.

Contrary to that I also think Gutts as a human even with the Berserk Armor isn't strong enough to finish off Griffith if that was/is the case.

[Istvan]

You'll have to be more specific. Do you mean the hill of swords fight? In that case, the answer is probably (although Griffith would deny it) because Griffith has started to feel things for Guts again. Read his thoughts, they're pretty clear on the issue.

I reread that chapter recently. I think it's kind of funny how hard Griffith tries to rationalize it away. "Yeah, that was just my stolen fetus-body acting up again. Yeah, that's the ticket." BS. I don't think Griffith's nearly as immune to remorse as he likes to pretend he is. That's what makes him such a great villain and overall effed-up character: he knows that the bad things he does are bad, he truly cares about the people he betrays, but then he does it anyway.

Well...sort of. I agree entirely with you on Griffith's personality when he was human. The thing is, a large part of the point of the ceremony to make someone a God's Hand (or, to a lesser extent, Apostle) is to burn things like empathy out of the person. Note the line "the last tears you will ever shed," for example. It's not just a horrible event, the process of altering into one's new form, and the process the souls of the dead play in this, quite literally alters one's emotional make up. Anymore, I don't think that he cares about those he betrays, or that what he's doing is wrong. It's meaningless to him. But Guts is different. I have two main theories for why that might be. Either his feelings for Guts were so strong that (deny it though he will) they survived the Eclipse, or alternatively that the fetus is somehow influencing him, as Griffith supposes. Personally, I favor the first theory, but we'll have to wait and see.

[The Prince]

You'll have to be more specific. Do you mean the hill of swords fight? In that case, the answer is probably (although Griffith would deny it) because Griffith has started to feel things for Guts again. Read his thoughts, they're pretty clear on the issue.

I reread that chapter recently. I think it's kind of funny how hard Griffith tries to rationalize it away. "Yeah, that was just my stolen fetus-body acting up again. Yeah, that's the ticket." BS. I don't think Griffith's nearly as immune to remorse as he likes to pretend he is. That's what makes him such a great villain and overall effed-up character: he knows that the bad things he does are bad, he truly cares about the people he betrays, but then he does it anyway.

Well...sort of. I agree entirely with you on Griffith's personality when he was human. The thing is, a large part of the point of the ceremony to make someone a God's Hand (or, to a lesser extent, Apostle) is to burn things like empathy out of the person. Note the line "the last tears you will ever shed," for example. It's not just a horrible event, the process of altering into one's new form, and the process the souls of the dead play in this, quite literally alters one's emotional make up. Anymore, I don't think that he cares about those he betrays, or that what he's doing is wrong. It's meaningless to him. But Guts is different. I have two main theories for why that might be. Either his feelings for Guts were so strong that (deny it though he will) they survived the Eclipse, or alternatively that the fetus is somehow influencing him, as Griffith supposes. Personally, I favor the first theory, but we'll have to wait and see.

Agree.....How many times have we heard Griffith say he'd never betray his dream. Yet admit to himself that he did just that (forget) because of Guts during the eclipse.

Though as Femto during their meeting in hell, Femto mercilessly belittled Guts. Completely apathatic to the fact that he may have killed Guts after launching him against a wall.

[hbi2k]

This is just my pet theory, but I don't think someone's personality is changed when they become an Apostle (or in Griffith's case, a God Hand member) at all. It's all power of suggestion: Griffith BELIEVES that he's above/beyond empathy, pity, remorse, etc., and so he denies that he ever feels these things, but in reality, he still has the normal range of human emotions. Just like Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. Just like the Nazis, who told themselves and each other "We are the supermen, they are subhuman, whatever we do to them is right and proper and the natural order of things" so much that they believed it. The Idea tells Griffith that he is beyond remorse, that he can do anything he wants without moral consequence, because it suits the Idea's purpose for Griffith to believe that, and Griffith believes it because he wants so very badly to believe it, because it's the only way he can deal with the terrible things that have happened to him and the terrible things he's done to others.

But look at the Slug Count, who was supposedly also a superhuman who could feel no pain or sorrow or remorse, yet by the end he felt plenty of all three. The Apostles and God Hand can deny their fundamental humanity all they want, but ugly and terrible and monstrous as they are, I don't think they ever cease being human in the moral sense.

[The Prince]

This is just my pet theory, but I don't think someone's personality is changed when they become an Apostle (or in Griffith's case, a God Hand member) at all. It's all power of suggestion: Griffith BELIEVES that he's above/beyond empathy, pity, remorse, etc., and so he denies that he ever feels these things, but in reality, he still has the normal range of human emotions. Just like Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. Just like the Nazis, who told themselves and each other "We are the supermen, they are subhuman, whatever we do to them is right and proper and the natural order of things" so much that they believed it. The Idea tells Griffith that he is beyond remorse, that he can do anything he wants without moral consequence, because it suits the Idea's purpose for Griffith to believe that, and Griffith believes it because he wants so very badly to believe it, because it's the only way he can deal with the terrible things that have happened to him and the terrible things he's done to others.

But look at the Slug Count, who was supposedly also a superhuman who could feel no pain or sorrow or remorse, yet by the end he felt plenty of all three. The Apostles and God Hand can deny their fundamental humanity all they want, but ugly and terrible and monstrous as they are, I don't think they ever cease being human in the moral sense.

Yeah...I was thinking the same.

As the slug count probably would have sacrificed his daughter if he truelly was without a remaining concious. Also that Faeri Queen apostle showed signs of human emotions across all spectrums, ranging from sadness, friendship, insecurity.....even fear.

I agree that perhaps in order to sacrifice and damn all that which you care for most for in life, would require that person to step outside themselves in order to bare the burden of such unconscionable guilt. Though perhaps that concious just gets buried down deep inside, where it lingers on.

Though in Griffith's case, one might ask whether Griffith character ever really possessed a true moral concious in the first place? Of course the answer is yes from his feelings toward Guts, but put aside that one aspect, and the answer to that question may not be quite as clear.

QUESTION: This may be a stupid one......But are we to assume personality wise that the post-Femto Griffith is the same Griffith, as far as sentient being goes, as the the pre-Femto version?

I'm just asking because during the scene where Guts meets up with Femto in Hell after the Slug Count fight, Femto comes off as a total jackass and disrespectful prick. Something I don't see fitting of Griffith's character, especially when dealing with Guts, whom he always showed admiration for before and even after the rebirth.

[Aetherfukz]

Muira has constantly thrown us (me at least) off balance on theories.
If Gutts were to die and become or return different (stronger, altered) ofcourse it would have a lot of reasoning and prolly a whole nother volume to cover those reasons.

I still to the day believe that when Guts dies, Berserk will end. Or more to the point, Berserk will end with Guts dieing, having slayed Griffith at last, succombing to his wounds. That would be a great ending, at least IMHO.

[Istvan]

This is just my pet theory, but I don't think someone's personality is changed when they become an Apostle (or in Griffith's case, a God Hand member) at all. It's all power of suggestion: Griffith BELIEVES that he's above/beyond empathy, pity, remorse, etc., and so he denies that he ever feels these things, but in reality, he still has the normal range of human emotions. Just like Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. Just like the Nazis, who told themselves and each other "We are the supermen, they are subhuman, whatever we do to them is right and proper and the natural order of things" so much that they believed it. The Idea tells Griffith that he is beyond remorse, that he can do anything he wants without moral consequence, because it suits the Idea's purpose for Griffith to believe that, and Griffith believes it because he wants so very badly to believe it, because it's the only way he can deal with the terrible things that have happened to him and the terrible things he's done to others.

But look at the Slug Count, who was supposedly also a superhuman who could feel no pain or sorrow or remorse, yet by the end he felt plenty of all three. The Apostles and God Hand can deny their fundamental humanity all they want, but ugly and terrible and monstrous as they are, I don't think they ever cease being human in the moral sense.

Yeah...I was thinking the same.

As the slug count probably would have sacrificed his daughter if he truelly was without a remaining concious. Also that Faeri Queen apostle showed signs of human emotions across all spectrums, ranging from sadness, friendship, insecurity.....even fear.

I agree that perhaps in order to sacrifice and damn all that which you care for most for in life, would require that person to step outside themselves in order to bare the burden of such unconscionable guilt. Though perhaps that concious just gets buried down deep inside, where it lingers on.

Though in Griffith's case, one might ask whether Griffith character ever really possessed a true moral concious in the first place? Of course the answer is yes from his feelings toward Guts, but put aside that one aspect, and the answer to that question may not be quite as clear.

QUESTION: This may be a stupid one......But are we to assume personality wise that the post-Femto Griffith is the same Griffith, as far as sentient being goes, as the the pre-Femto version?

I'm just asking because during the scene where Guts meets up with Femto in Hell after the Slug Count fight, Femto comes off as a total jackass and disrespectful prick. Something I don't see fitting of Griffith's character, especially when dealing with Guts, whom he always showed admiration for before and even after the rebirth.

Whereas I do think there's a genuine personality change because of the Eclipse, and most "good" or "human" feelings are burned out of the person. I just also tend to think that the stronger the feeling, the harder it is to remove/destroy. So in the case of people one was extremely close to, such as the Count with his daughter, or the Elf-Apostle to her freind, some emotion can linger on (perhaps also Guts for Griffith, but this is debatable). Possibly this is one reason the eclipse requires the sacrifice of those one cares most about in the world, to avoid such problems. But the degree of personality change we've seen in most of those who become Apostles/God's Hand indicates to me that there is some fundamental change going on, caused by the ceremony itself. I could be wrong, we'll have to wait and see, but that's what I think.

[hbi2k]

But the degree of personality change we've seen in most of those who become Apostles/God's Hand indicates to me that there is some fundamental change going on, caused by the ceremony itself. I could be wrong, we'll have to wait and see, but that's what I think.

Of course, the ceremony always happens on the absolute worst day of the person's life, so that could explain a lot of it too. I mean, anyone who goes through what Griffith went through (and to a lesser extent, what the faerie girl and the slug count and the others went through) directly before his "transformation" is going to come out the other end pretty fucked up from the experience. All the more so if they try to deny their own feelings, because then they're repressing instead of dealing. You can explain the facts as we know them at the moment either way, I just think the themes of Berserk are that much stronger if you don't explain away Griffith's behavior by saying, "Oh, he's not human / has no conscience."

[MrFelony]

Muira has constantly thrown us (me at least) off balance on theories.
If Gutts were to die and become or return different (stronger, altered) ofcourse it would have a lot of reasoning and prolly a whole nother volume to cover those reasons.
But since Muira has been keeping Gutts human all this time I don't think he will divert from that path.

Contrary to that I also think Gutts as a human even with the Berserk Armor isn't strong enough to finish off Griffith if that was/is the case.

It's hard to say he's human when he has a mechanical arm, magic armor that releases his inner strength(demons), and a huge magic sword. as many of the people who've seen him have said "he's a monster," but to put that better, "he's a monster of his own making." if you get my drift. like griffith, he has kind of elevated himself above the average person, but mostly through his own desire/will.

a side note. why did guts refuse magic weapons? was it because he didnt like them being magic, or that they just couldnt compare to his dragonslayer? cause if it's something along the lines of the former, then i call bull shit because he's using the berserker armor

[The Prince]

But the degree of personality change we've seen in most of those who become Apostles/God's Hand indicates to me that there is some fundamental change going on, caused by the ceremony itself. I could be wrong, we'll have to wait and see, but that's what I think.

Of course, the ceremony always happens on the absolute worst day of the person's life, so that could explain a lot of it too. I mean, anyone who goes through what Griffith went through (and to a lesser extent, what the faerie girl and the slug count and the others went through) directly before his "transformation" is going to come out the other end pretty fucked up from the experience. All the more so if they try to deny their own feelings, because then they're repressing instead of dealing.

From all accounts that I'm aware of, regarding backstories for apostles (and Griffith), the behelit has always been activated under circumstances of extreme vulnerability and desperation. As if the mechanism for triggering it, is the point at which the owner reaches rock bottom.

However dispicable sacrificing your most beloved toward becoming an apostle may be, Miura does, at least, bring a level of depth and persective to the story to rationalize (not necessarily justify) how someone could arrive at that decision. As opposed to having people use the behelit w/out justication beyond simply wanting superhuman powers, Miura has the act of becoming an apostle representing the tail-end of a unique tragedy on the verge of playing itself out. (Sorry if my wording sucks.....)

Though if this were to hold true, its hard to imagine the circumstances, in which some of the more noble apostles such as Locus, "The Archer Guy", and even Naga, that would have caused them to resort to using the behelit.

You can explain the facts as we know them at the moment either way, I just think the themes of Berserk are that much stronger if you don't explain away Griffith's behavior by saying, "Oh, he's not human / has no conscience."

If you're alluding to my comments earlier, the last thing I intended was to shortchange Griffith's depth of character.

Let me explain where I am coming from.......

*My synopsis of Griffith:

Despite all the time invested in Griffith's character throughout the first 14 volumes of Berserk, even before becoming (and returning) as Femto, he has always been an enigmatic figure. A lot of that having to do with Miura providing the reader little oppurtunity to get into the head of Griffith (besides a couple pages of contemplation while in the jail cell). In that sense, my own personal characterization of Griffith (beyond the charismatic facade) is that of a f**king psychopath.

By psychopath, I don't mean crazy, but as an individual unshaped and unburdened by their emotions. Even though his character was very like-able to the reader and portrayed in a relative positive light during the Golden Age arc, Griffith was a slave to his ambition and unsympathetic of those that were "burnt" toward his way of achieving it.

Ironically Griffith's biggest weakness I would argue, was confronting and dealing with emotion. What makes his relationship with Guts so interesting is that, his feelings towards Guts goes everything against Griffith's nature. And the lack of composure in dealing with it, led him to make decisions that directly went against his pursuit of his "dream". Whether it was putting himself in harms way by engaging Zodd, going back to rescue Guts (during Gut's 1st raid as a Hawk), or getting caught screwing the Princess after Guts left.

[Aetherfukz]

a side note. why did guts refuse magic weapons? was it because he didnt like them being magic, or that they just couldnt compare to his dragonslayer? cause if it's something along the lines of the former, then i call bull shit because he's using the berserker armor

He said something like "my hands need a weapon they are accustomed to". And that rings true, it's better to fight with a weapon you are used to than to try out a new one which may be a bit shinier but isn't an extension of your arm as the used one is.

[hbi2k]

a side note. why did guts refuse magic weapons? was it because he didnt like them being magic, or that they just couldnt compare to his dragonslayer? cause if it's something along the lines of the former, then i call bull shit because he's using the berserker armor

My interpretation was that his reasons were more practical: you don't go into battle with a weapon you're unfamiliar with, and he didn't have the luxury of a lot of time to spend training with a new weapon before getting tossed into a life-or-death situation with it. Considering that the magic weapon he was offered was an axe, something he's never been seen to use before and which is wielded vastly differently than a sword, and considering that the Dragonslayer is hardly a weak point of his arsenal in need of replacing anyway, I'd say he made the right pragmatic decision.

Edit: Aether beat me to it. (-:

[Istvan]

Of course, the ceremony always happens on the absolute worst day of the person's life, so that could explain a lot of it too. I mean, anyone who goes through what Griffith went through (and to a lesser extent, what the faerie girl and the slug count and the others went through) directly before his "transformation" is going to come out the other end pretty fucked up from the experience. All the more so if they try to deny their own feelings, because then they're repressing instead of dealing.

Oh certainly. Even without anything else, one would expect a person to exhibit some degree of personality change after the eclipse. It's the degree of that change (and not just in one individual, but in pretty much everyone who goes through it) that leads me to conclude the statements of the God's Hand and Idea were accurate when describing the effects the eclipse ceremony would have on the personality/mind. Also, I don't think either Idea or the God's Hand would bother to lie about it, so again I tend to believe the description they give. Just my view on the matter.

I just think the themes of Berserk are that much stronger if you don't explain away Griffith's behavior by saying, "Oh, he's not human / has no conscience."

Oh, I agree completely, but I think the key is when Griffith stopped being human. Everything from the Golden Age right up to the moment he became Femto was the entirely-human Griffith. Only his actions after the eclipse is over occur after he "has no conscience," which when you think about it, hasn't been all that much (in terms of what we've directly seen). He simply hasn't been "on-screen" as much since the eclipse. It's also interesting to note that, although he hides it well, he has become much more callous since the eclipse.

By psychopath, I don't mean crazy, but as an individual unshaped and unburdened by their emotions. Even though his character was very like-able to the reader and portrayed in a relative positive light during the Golden Age arc, Griffith was a slave to his ambition and unsympathetic of those that were "burnt" toward his way of achieving it.

I'd disagree. Griffith was not utterly unsympathetic. It was precisely because he did know the cost of his actions (and cared about that cost), but chose to persue those ambitions anyway that made him such an interesting and compelling character. For the best (though not only) example of this, consider the Caska flash-back scene, and his reaction to the child. Don't make the mistake of mis-identifying extreme control with a lack of emotion. Griffith was anything but "unshaped and unburdened" by his emotions.

[Berserked]

Muira has constantly thrown us (me at least) off balance on theories.
If Gutts were to die and become or return different (stronger, altered) ofcourse it would have a lot of reasoning and prolly a whole nother volume to cover those reasons.

I still to the day believe that when Guts dies, Berserk will end. Or more to the point, Berserk will end with Guts dieing, having slayed Griffith at last, succombing to his wounds. That would be a great ending, at least IMHO.

I agree with you there.

[Berserked]

Muira has constantly thrown us (me at least) off balance on theories.
If Gutts were to die and become or return different (stronger, altered) ofcourse it would have a lot of reasoning and prolly a whole nother volume to cover those reasons.
But since Muira has been keeping Gutts human all this time I don't think he will divert from that path.

Contrary to that I also think Gutts as a human even with the Berserk Armor isn't strong enough to finish off Griffith if that was/is the case.

It's hard to say he's human when he has a mechanical arm, magic armor that releases his inner strength(demons), and a huge magic sword. as many of the people who've seen him have said "he's a monster," but to put that better, "he's a monster of his own making." if you get my drift. like griffith, he has kind of elevated himself above the average person, but mostly through his own desire/will.

Yea, if you put it that way the way I put it seems trivial indeed.

a side note. why did guts refuse magic weapons? was it because he didnt like them being magic, or that they just couldnt compare to his dragonslayer? cause if it's something along the lines of the former, then i call bull shit because he's using the berserker armor

I think we're not gonna find out why he refused the magic axe.
I also think Gutts wouldn't be Gutts without his DragonSlayer, unless there's a bigger sword around ofcourse

[MrFelony]

I remember he said something as to why he didnt want it. I can't remember if he said he didnt need it, or if he didnt want it because it was magical.

[Rolos]

I think this should put an end to that discussion:

[Berserked]

right, ty.

[DrPepperPro]

Hello this is my first post.

I was thinking while reading the discussion a few pages back about fate - What if fate does not exist in the world of berserk?
This would mean that The Idea has only physical power, and it only thinks it can control fate. Then maybe unknowingly The Idea doesn't use its power/influence on Gattsu because it believes that he goes against the laws of causality. In the end though I guess thinking like that changes nothing. I thought I had some more to say about this but I guess I forgot.

Anyways heres a question from a newbie. Does The Idea manipulate fate at will? or was it at the instant of its creation that it set everything into motion, and it only watches the outcome now.

If it is the latter, then does that mean it has no power over anything that will happen past the events of the eclipse. Obviously anyone not involved with Gattsu would do as they were preordained, but Griffith and so on will have been affected in ways The Idea may not have foreseen. That brings me to another question.

Did The Idea predict everything Gattsu would do up until the eclipse, and only after did Gattsu start interfering with it's plan, or was Gattsu's every action including his birth something that The Idea could not factor into his plans?
I can see that part both ways. The Idea did predict Gattsu's being, which was the set up for Griffith to become a GH. But on the other hand, Gattsu defied fate at his birth, and everyone he affected (including Griffith) had their fate changed. This would mean that the GH has no idea about what The Idea's fate plan actually was/is, since they assume that Griffith becoming a GH is his original fate. And on the other side of that, they are correct that it is his original fate, and they can predict fate accurately.

Well as you can see I'm quite confused. If you have any thoughts maybe post them. I'd be honored if Eldo or some of the others here had something to say.

Interesting note, if you check near the end of that chapter, where she's sitting on the ground, there are two dragon slayers around her, anyone ever notice that?

its just showing how it bounced on the ground. 1 DS has some little lines around the handle, and the other has some at the tip. I didn't ever notice that until i bought the dark horse copy.

The sound effect says: Garaaan btw. so like metal hitting stone sound.

Thanks for reading my post. I'm going to sleep now 3am, maybe thats why im confused. Great Forum btw ya bye.

[Aetherfukz]

With that sound effect I'd say thats just one dragonslayer bouncing of the ground, minus action lines.

[Istvan]

With that sound effect I'd say thats just one dragonslayer bouncing of the ground, minus action lines.

Yeah, I think it's just Miura showing that the thing's moving.

[Starnum]

Yeah, I think it's just Miura showing that the thing's moving.

Yeah, obviously.

As for Idea, it's my impression that he pretty much controls fate. It's just that Gatts is now outside of that fate, because he was supposed to have died during the eclipse. However, since the "lost chapter" was removed from publication, who knows if Idea is even still part of the canon plot. We'll just have to wait and see.

[The Prince]

Yeah, I think it's just Miura showing that the thing's moving.

Yeah, obviously.

As for Idea, it's my impression that he pretty much controls fate. It's just that Gatts is now outside of that fate, because he was supposed to have died during the eclipse. However, since the "lost chapter" was removed from publication, who knows if Idea is even still part of the canon plot. We'll just have to wait and see.

Was the lost Chapter, the only time the concept of the Idea to be ever alluded to in the story?