Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Aetherfukz »

Starnum wrote:You don't just give up on someone because they go crazy or are mentally disabled.
Well...
It's a rather serious issue, but: My aunt had a stroke almost 10 years ago. At first she was really, really bad, wasn't able to move her legs or left arm at all, and had trouble speaking full sentences. But rehab worked wonder and slowly, but steadily, she got better. First the speaking issue dissolved, then the movement of the arm and legs came back. And while she still needs a walking stick now, she talks just as normal as she did before the stroke, and has no problems with her arm motions.

Anyway that's probably not the least bit interesting to you (not knowing me), but it leads to my point, which is:
Yeah you don't, and shouldn't give up on someone because they go crazy or are mentally disabled. Especially if you love(d) them. If they are at least showing slow signs of evolving back to where they were before whatever happend, you can cheer for them, you can hope for them. But if there is absolutly no sign of betterment it gets extremly hard to bear with them.
It's been how long now since Guts and Caska are travelling together? More than a year I recon. And she's still exactly the same as on the first day, plus even more hatred for Guts. She can't even say a single word, all she says is basically "bubu baba". If at least she called out Guts', or hell, anyone of their groups names one time when in grave danger, it would show that she evolves, and her character develops (again).
The only instances when Caska was active herself that I can recall were with the Child on the beach, splashing water on her hair when Farnese called her a bitch, reaching out for Griffith, and of course slaying the 3 wannabe rapists, which was probably her most significant action post-eclipse.

That image, her standing there with a sword in hand, reminded me of her old self and I was hoping that she would show at least a little bit of development from that point on, but to no avail.

What point has the inclusion of Caska to the party, and to the story, as of now? OK she's the main quest, but so was the holy grail (from which is said the quest itself was the main quest, not getting the grail :D). Apart from that she is just a shell that reminds Guts and the reader or her awesome former self. So the quest is journeying to elf hell, um elf helm, to at least restore parts of her sanity. But what if the elf king cannot or will not do that feat? Than she will be tagged along again. Or killed in combat, or even by Guts himself in a fit of rage. Although the latter would be very freaky and probably change Guts back to his loner gruesome self he had the 2 years after the eclipse, let's say the first happens and she dies in combat because the party can't save her or just some freakish accident happens.

Yes it would be sad. And Guts would be shattered once again. But at least from that point on he, and the reader, could move on. And yes it hurts losing someone you love, but Caska as she is now isn't the beloved warrior we all once knew. She is just a shell, an image or her former self. So which one is better, having a deep wound that will slowly heal over time, or having a deep wound with a knife in it that twists and turns all the time and reminds you of the incident that caused the wound? If there isn't the option of at least hoping that some time in the future you are able to remove the knife and let the wound heal again, I'd go for the first option.

Basically what I'm trying to say is: A story without character development is a boring story. A character who doesn't develop in any way is a boring character. Now we've been teased with the possibility of getting old Caska back since the day at the beach with Skull Knight. If the hanafubuku king just sends them to another, more powerful being, to get that done, I'm ok with that. That's what quests are all about. But if he basically says "nope, can't be done. She'll stay like that until she dies." I'll say let her die and get over with it. Farnese isn't looking bad either. 8)

OK forget that very last sentence :D
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Post by The Prince »

Here I'll try and match your post word for word......... 8)

- Let me preface things by stating that I can't imagine not having the Ferry King (or whoever) restoring Caska's mind or at least helping to improve the situation. Miura has held that carrot in front of the audience way too long, for the sake of misleading his readers after all this time. Considering everything that has happened leading up to Elf Island, which has been literally years in the making, it would have to take something as monumental as Caska getting back to normal again, to justify the wayward direction in which Miura decided to take the story.


- After Guts left with Caska following the Hill of Swords encounter, Guts gives an inner dialoque of never leaving her side again, and thus coming to terms with his past as well as where things stand in the present. But the theme of Guts not leaving Caska again, is akin to never giving up on Caska no matter how bad things got, and is constantly something put to the test again and again....as well as a constant form of frustration. Not just for Guts.....but the reader as well.

But frustrated is something that I believe Miura wants the reader to feel.

No two ways about it, Berserk is a "tragedy". Like so many other tragedies shares a common theme of forebidden love. Having its main character tormented with the aspect of his "true love" being right there in front of him, yet at the same time always out of reach.


- In regards to Caska being worthless, it depends on how you look at it. No doubt she is a huge liability and a source of constant frustration, but as far as the story goes she is central. At this point in time Caska as she is now, is not so much a character, as much as she is a caricature of Guts struggle. Caska's character and her current situation, serves as a symbol to the past (true love, remnant of the BOH), as well as the present, as an albatross for Guts to bear. A "walking stain" for which was once the only thing "pure" in Guts life.

IMO the brilliance of the entire Golden Age Arc was that it was simply a build up, allowing the reader to truely grasp the extent of Guts current plight. Where the entire Blackswordsmen Arc was the embodiment of Guts struggle to come to terms with his plight.

As suggested by Godo, when Guts left Casca behind in the cave for 2-yrs was a consequence of Guts not wanting to bear the burden and come to terms with his loss. Before the eclipse, the subject of Guts realizing what was important to him only after it was taken away, was a reoccuring theme in the story. It was only until talking with Godo on his deathbed for him to come to terms with salvaging what was left of himself, beyond the revenge and hate which had fueled him up to that point. That moment was clearly a big turning point in the story, and as character development goes.......a transition point from the "The Macabre Blackswordsman" to "The Decent Blackswordsmen" we see now with Guts.

......ALL THANKS TO CASKA!
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Starnum »

Yeah, that's my point. Even as just a character in a story, no matter what happens, we can't just give up on Casca. I'll be damn pissed off if all this build up to elfhelm and the elf king is all for naught, but if that's Miura's vision, then so be it. Whether Casca is an infantile loon or not, she still stands as a pivotal character in the plot.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Vancore »

Saying that Berserk is a story about Tragedy is akin to saying that Caska will most likely die sometime in the future to continue that, and if she does die, I would rather she die with her sanity intact if only because it will make the entire story more interesting then it is. If she dies like she is now it'll only disappoint me, it also wouldn't feel like a very tragic loss as it already seems she's lost right now and if the Elf King lays out that their is no hope for her... then well, I guess thats that. If you look at the choices which tragedy would be worse for you?

Ya, a bit deep, so I'm hoping that were past the tragedy parts of Berserk and onto the heroism part. Maybe Guts will lead an army of wizards and Elf's against the might of Griffith's army and tactical genius even though he seems more of a one on one fighter then someone who can manage an army. Although finding people to fit Gut's army would probably be difficult especially if we find out that Griffith is exactly what he's imitating right now. A good guy. *lol* another Tragedy.

Also, was sure Guts was around 26 years old, 22 seems a bit young at this point.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Starnum »

Nah dude, check out the FAQ, I laid out the timeline pretty clearly, just as it's given in the manga. He's 23 at the oldest. No doubt he's looking older than that recently. Also, about the Casca and Elfhelm business. I'm definitely hoping that Casca gets her sanity back. I'm not expecting Gatts to get his arm or eye back though. I want Casca to get better, and I have a feeling that's what's going to happen. I'm just saying, it's possible it won't happen though, and that would suck. I agree, she's going to die someday, she would just become such a more valuable character again if she regains her sanity before that. She's important to me no matter what, but she used to be so much more awesome. Also, Elfhelm may ultimately be destroyed, we shall see. Then again, Griffith has his hands full with other things right now, heh.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Prince »

Starnum wrote:Nah dude, check out the FAQ, I laid out the timeline pretty clearly, just as it's given in the manga. He's 23 at the oldest. No doubt he's looking older than that recently. Also, about the Casca and Elfhelm business. I'm definitely hoping that Casca gets her sanity back. I'm not expecting Gatts to get his arm or eye back though. I want Casca to get better, and I have a feeling that's what's going to happen. I'm just saying, it's possible it won't happen though, and that would suck. I agree, she's going to die someday, she would just become such a more valuable character again if she regains her sanity before that. She's important to me no matter what, but she used to be so much more awesome. Also, Elfhelm may ultimately be destroyed, we shall see. Then again, Griffith has his hands full with other things right now, heh.
I believe once we get to Elfheim, we will learn a lot more regarding the nature and origins of the Godhand. Along with the origins of the Skull Night, and the events of and leading to the downfall of Gaeseric's kingdom a 1000 yrs prior.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Starnum »

Oh man, I can only dream.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Istvan »

Well, in regards to the entire "usefulness of Caska" discussion, I think it's worth pointing out that the only reason that Guts even has a party is because of Caska. He allowed others to join him because he realized that he couldn't protect Caska on his own, and so needed help. Otherwise he'd have forced them away. Now maybe Guts has changed enough that he values the other members of the party in their own right, and would keep them around even if Caska died (although I wouldn't necessarily be willing to put money on it, especially given what her death would do to him), but regardless one can hardly say that Caska has been useless to the current struggle.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Aetherfukz »

Istvan wrote:Well, in regards to the entire "usefulness of Caska" discussion, I think it's worth pointing out that the only reason that Guts even has a party is because of Caska. He allowed others to join him because he realized that he couldn't protect Caska on his own, and so needed help. Otherwise he'd have forced them away. Now maybe Guts has changed enough that he values the other members of the party in their own right, and would keep them around even if Caska died (although I wouldn't necessarily be willing to put money on it, especially given what her death would do to him), but regardless one can hardly say that Caska has been useless to the current struggle.
That's a very good point I haven't thought of.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Eldo »

Istvan wrote:Well, in regards to the entire "usefulness of Caska" discussion, I think it's worth pointing out that the only reason that Guts even has a party is because of Caska. He allowed others to join him because he realized that he couldn't protect Caska on his own, and so needed help. Otherwise he'd have forced them away. Now maybe Guts has changed enough that he values the other members of the party in their own right, and would keep them around even if Caska died (although I wouldn't necessarily be willing to put money on it, especially given what her death would do to him), but regardless one can hardly say that Caska has been useless to the current struggle.
Fantastic point that I think everyone missed on because they were focused on her getting better. Now, I think the bombshell would be that once Casca gets cured, he disbands the party. Now, one might argue that Guts has changed from what he was before, but the reason he might disband the party is because he doesn't want to endanger them any further rather than they've lived beyond their usefulness. I'm not saying that it would happen, but it would be pretty interesting to see if it does, though.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Prince »

Eldo wrote:
Istvan wrote:Well, in regards to the entire "usefulness of Caska" discussion, I think it's worth pointing out that the only reason that Guts even has a party is because of Caska. He allowed others to join him because he realized that he couldn't protect Caska on his own, and so needed help. Otherwise he'd have forced them away. Now maybe Guts has changed enough that he values the other members of the party in their own right, and would keep them around even if Caska died (although I wouldn't necessarily be willing to put money on it, especially given what her death would do to him), but regardless one can hardly say that Caska has been useless to the current struggle.
Fantastic point that I think everyone missed on because they were focused on her getting better. Now, I think the bombshell would be that once Casca gets cured, he disbands the party. Now, one might argue that Guts has changed from what he was before, but the reason he might disband the party is because he doesn't want to endanger them any further rather than they've lived beyond their usefulness. I'm not saying that it would happen, but it would be pretty interesting to see if it does, though.
It would be an interesting twist (perhaps?), but if Guts really were to insist on this for their own good, what about Casca's own good? He clearly won't abondon her, so by the same token, he should then give up on his pursuit of Griffith altogether to avoid harm. But then what kind of story would that make?

Anyway I could easily see Guts trying to push his comrades away for their own good, though I see them sticking in the long run. IMO at this point he has pretty much adopted Isidro and Schierke (or they have adopted him), where neither has anywhere else to go. Especially Schierke who Flora entrusted to Guts. As far as Farnese, if she were cast aside, she just would follow Guts around like an abondoned puppy.....with Serpico and Magnifico in pursuit. Don't know about that Bridge-Knight guy, as he'd probably be fine with it (leaving), assuming he's now part of the party.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Istvan »

Eldo wrote:Fantastic point that I think everyone missed on because they were focused on her getting better. Now, I think the bombshell would be that once Casca gets cured, he disbands the party. Now, one might argue that Guts has changed from what he was before, but the reason he might disband the party is because he doesn't want to endanger them any further rather than they've lived beyond their usefulness. I'm not saying that it would happen, but it would be pretty interesting to see if it does, though.
Sadly, while that would make a lot of sense from a character perspective, I can't see it from a story perspective. Given the nature of the army Griffith has built around himself, Gut's going to need allies to have a hope of success. At least, it seems that way to me. But who knows, Miura has surpised me before with his plot twists, so I suppose we'll have to see.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Aetherfukz »

And also I remember Miura saying something like "now that the party is together finally the story can start" so he probably will not disband them as easy as that.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Rolos »

Has anyone considered the possibility that they will arrive at Elfhelm in a time of crisis?

I mean, with all that "birth of a new world" and stuff that the egg apostle started.
Ever since Griffith came to the physical world, all kinds of strange stuff have been happening, so why wouldn't Elhelm be affected as well?
Besides, Elhelm poses a bigger threat to Ideas plans than any other nation in the world, because its a nation of wizards and elves, who are not bound to this plane of existence and could effectively resist Griffith influence.
May be Elfhelm is not as safe as everyone has been hoping it will be.

Just a fleeting thought though, I have absolutely nothing to back up that theory.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Prince »

Rolos wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that they will arrive at Elfhelm in a time of crisis?

I mean, with all that "birth of a new world" and stuff that the egg apostle started.
Ever since Griffith came to the physical world, all kinds of strange stuff have been happening, so why wouldn't Elhelm be affected as well?
Besides, Elhelm poses a bigger threat to Ideas plans than any other nation in the world, because its a nation of wizards and elves, who are not bound to this plane of existence and could effectively resist Griffith influence.
May be Elfhelm is not as safe as everyone has been hoping it will be.

Just a fleeting thought though, I have absolutely nothing to back up that theory.
Welcome back.

Anyway, considering it's a nation of wizards, and that being an island (not very accessible by invading armies), I'm sure an attack on ElfHell would be very difficult.

Though I think Magnifico and Puck just might pull it off......
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Herald »

Elfhelm might be a place like Avalon where you can't find it unless the masters of it want you to find it. The king might want Guts to find it because he's a huge factor in the fight agianst the apostles, and one would think that the elves would be against the apostles. Though, there's always a chance that they are neither human nor apostle they don't want anything to do with the whole thing and the King might not want to help Guts because then the apostles would want to attack him and his island of Skellig. Then again, the reason for them all to go to Skellig is to help Casca and receive protection from the apostles, at least as long as Guts needs to heal.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Rolos »

Thats true, but you have to remember that the apostles attacked Flora's mannor because she was a potential threat, not because she had done anything to Griffith.

If Griffith is attacking everyone he thinks could possibly be a threat to him, then Elfhelm would be his first target. The idea of the elf king refusing to help Gutts and company because that would put him against griffith is retarded, for Griffith already considers him (and all kind of magic users) his enemies.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

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Rolos wrote:Thats true, but you have to remember that the apostles attacked Flora's mannor because she was apotential threat, not because she had done anything to Griffith.

If Griffith is attacking everyone he thinks could possibly be a threat to him, then Elfhelm would be his first target. The idea of the elf king refusing to help Gutts and company because that would put him against griffith is retarded, for Griffith already considers him (and all kind of magic users) his enemies.
Not saying the people of Elfhell don't pose a threat to Griffith, but attacking a nation of wizards surrounded by sea, is a lot different than attacking the home of a witch in a forest.

And as far as the story goes, it seems as though Griffith is a little preoccupied at the moment. Not to mention because Elfhell is only accessible by sea, it won't be easy to get an entire army over to the Island, along with the length of travel and the fact it appears most of the Vatican's fleet went up in flames.

Though it would be interesting to see some cool sea battles, now that Roderick is part of the crew.


*BTW....pm me you fool.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Istvan »

Rolos wrote:Thats true, but you have to remember that the apostles attacked Flora's mannor because she was a potential threat, not because she had done anything to Griffith.

If Griffith is attacking everyone he thinks could possibly be a threat to him, then Elfhelm would be his first target. The idea of the elf king refusing to help Gutts and company because that would put him against griffith is retarded, for Griffith already considers him (and all kind of magic users) his enemies.
I'm with The Prince on this one. Yes, Elfhelm is a potential threat to Griffith, and yes I'd expect him to destroy it eventually, but not yet. The thing about Flora is that although she was a threat, she was a small threat that could be easily crushed. From what we know of it, Elfhelm is extremely powerful, and would be difficult even for Griffith's army to destroy. Given that he's already facing the Kushan emperor, I doubt Griffith would choose now as a time to go after Elfhelm too. He's too good a strategist to want to fight a two front war if he can avoid it. After the Kushans are defeated may be another matter, but that should still be a ways away.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Rolos »

And what about the other members of God-Hand?
If Slaan could bring her realm into the physical world, why couldn't the others do the same?
We have already seen how Conrad helped Griffith by spreading that plague all over midland, so there would be many refugees at Albion for the mock eclipse.
(If you don't remember that ever happening, read Volume 17 Chapter 05 or just look at the pictures)

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Even if Slaan was just playing around, the other members of GD could emulate Conrad's example and actually do something to help Griffith, like, I don't know, exterminating the most numerous magic user concentration in the world (I don't know why, but it sound like something Void could do).
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Prince »

The Godhand can only appear under very special circumstances in the physical world, such as concentrated areas of disease, death, agony, an eclipse.....etc.....

And Slaan was only able to appear in the troll cave (qui???th) because it was an anomaly where the interstice and the physical planes where merging.

Even during the Mock-Eclipse the Godhand couldn't fully materialize, with only their "shadows" being represented.

In actuality I believe the significance of the 5th GH was to pave the way for merging all three planes of existance that would allow "supernatural" beings to enter the physical realm. Which could eventually lead to the Godhand entering the human world freely down the road. Perhaps Griffith becoming King would aid in this cause, but right now I do not believe that's possible.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Rolos »

But the Qliphoth (which was Slaan Sephira) came to the physical world because Slaan wanted it to. She could bring Qliphoth only due to the fact that the worlds are merging, so there is no longer the need of someone summoning spirits in the physical end. You know what? Let me explain it with drawings:

Image

Image

Image


What do I have to back up that theory? This:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... 76copy.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... 77copy.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... 00copy.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... 01copy.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... 03copy.jpg


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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by The Prince »

BAAWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Damn Rolos, I wouldn't expect anything less!!!

I think we should have a thread exclusive to Rolos Berserk Tutorials.

*BTW.....you mispelled "interstice".
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by Starnum »

Rolos wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that they will arrive at Elfhelm in a time of crisis.
Yes, I've heard it mentioned several times, including myself. We'll just have to wait and see.
The Prince wrote:and that being an island (not very accessible by invading armies), I'm sure an attack on ElfHell would be very difficult.
It's Elfhelm you fool, ELFHELM! :P
The Prince wrote:I think we should have a thread exclusive to Rolos Berserk Tutorials.
Um, no.
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Re: Berserk 292 - Mist of Death

Post by War Machine »

Very nice drawings, Rolos. Although you might've saved some time by using the diagram from skullknight.net:

http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/universe/
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