About Griffith...

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:10 pm

You've got a point there.

This is endeed a difficult question.
I'll just try to say what I think.

Now after thinking about it I've conviced myself that griffith is
neither evil nor good. That depends on how the situation is.

If he had to get raped and tortured to save peoples lifes, so that he can achieve his goal, would make him a good person.

But if he had to rape other people and torture them, so that he can achieve his goal, would make him evel.

He's just so obessed with his goal that it doesn't mather if he has to become evil or good. That's what I think!

Post by **Arresty** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:12 pm

Thats more or less what he is like. He is just goal oriented, and to achieve his goal will do anything. He does not care whether it is good or evil. For someone to be evil they have to do evil things for the hell of it. He does them with a purpose in mind so you couldn't really call him evil, if he could have achieved his dream without killing hte hawks he wouldn't have. He doesn't care eitherway.

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:24 pm

Well the fact that he doesn't care doesn't make him evil but it makes him a mother....ing asshole!

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:44 pm

Anyone saw the movie "Hero" ? I'm not trying to compare Griffith with an Emperor which goal was 'unification' but to the characters in the movie, the Emperor seemed Evil until they realized which was his goal. Before I saw that movie, Good and Evil acts differentiated from each other just by how do you affect other people to "act" (good or evil). For example, Ghandi was good, Alexander was evil. But then that movie put me to think "what if you need to sacrifice so much to achieve your goal that your acts seemed evil?". So the phrase "Your freedom ends where others ppl freedom starts" became questionable.

That was just to clarify how do i think about Good and Evil. They're relative, abstract concepts, defined by rules-religion-society, sometimes to help the world coexist, sometimes to help tyrans rule. Resuming: If it's "the right thing" to your eyes, and doesn't affect (in any way, bad or good) other people, then it is good. Else, it can be good or bad, depending on the eyes that are watching (yours, affected people, non-affected people).

But, since in this manga, it's -clearly-&-explicit- that the one doing "the acts" here is not Griffith, nor Gutts, nor The God Hand, nor the Kushans... it's Fate, Destiny, the "one" who controls (almost) everything (i think it controlled even the way Gutts was found just born, raised among mercenaries, even surviving to the eclipse, it's all on Fate plans) Griffith is not bad, to himself. Gutts was the only one alive after the Eclipse, so Griffith is bad only to Gutts. And since Gutts is killing so many Apostles and they're the ones helping Griffith dream come true, Gutts will be the "bad guy" to a lot of people.

So, was it fate? Griffith raped Casca 'cos it was written in Fate? was it Fate that the demon-turned son of Gutts appeared in the middle of the rebirth? It's very twisted to think about, but who are anyone else but Griffith itself to judge that act? Think about it, yourself hating everyone, The Hawks for not being able to help him to achieve his goal, Gutts, for abandoning him, The kingdom for torturing him. Can be love an act of good? Can you kill for love? And it can be viewed as a good thing? Why you can't kill for hate? Griffith just rebuilt from scratch with a demon body and mind, only thing left of the old Griffith was his Ego, and his Ego was hating everyone, and the first thing the God hand lends in front of Griffith is Casca naked.... for me it was Fate, not Griffith who raped Casca. The whole situation turned him to do it.

But the good or evil question, also, makes questionable the "decision" before te sacrifice, to make his companions, The Hawks, a sacrifice for demons. That was what fate offered Griffith, and the only thing that no-one knows is: "Does Fate controls such decisions?" Was The Count destined to refuse the God Hand offering? Was him good or evil at that decision? Was him refusing Fate? Was Griffith accepting fate?...

This post is now just too long >.<

Post by **Buzkashi** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:50 pm

Seriously man me and arresty went on on this subject for like 8 pages. And yes we even used the hero idea with it. Its all been said.

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:57 pm

The Hero idea was to explain with an example how do I think, not to be related to Berserk. But...

Then why the discussion goes on for 6 more pages?

Post by **Femto** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:58 pm

Yeah, I think I told this to someone before, but pretty much every possible discussion that can be had about Berserk, has been had already, either here or back in DP. The only thing we can do is wait for new info when a new chapter arrives.

EDIT: Paya, check out who started the thread, someone that joined late in March and has obviously not been hanging around here enough. Most of this thread has been spam anyway, and I'm expecting it to die off soon. I did the same thing in DP if I'm not mistaken. It sucks to realize that you have some theories or shit, and that everybody has heard them before.

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:06 pm

Damn how long did it take you to write that post? ^^

This is something that you could talk about youre whole life.
But I've just got to make a comment.

Personaly I do not belive in fate but since we're talking about berserk
let's put it that way.

Fate doesn't force you to do anithing anithing in live because you don't have a choise to do anithing else. If you see it that way fate is just life and to think about something that is inevitable, is just a waste of time, because you're fate made you think about fate.
You see what I mean?

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:09 pm

Well, at least it may be like in science, rediscussing a theory may bring new ideas to it. But it's also true, chapters take so long that the whole manga can be discussed twice in the middle.

edit: to Sahlen. Of course, I don't believe in fate also. But I do agree about the spiral "way of events" that Flora talked to the Skullknight. And, stick to the history argument, if it's Fate controlling everything and everyone, in an idea of "i'm walking this path, but Fate put a crossroad in front of me, what should I do?" It's fate who offers you a Choice, i'm wrong, at least in the manga, Fate doesn't offers you a Choice, it 'forces' you to make that Choice. Picking characters with an Ego like Griffith (a chosen one) it makes sure that Fate knows what his decision may be. But it can happen, someday like what happened to the Count. He was also a chosen one, he had a Fate, but he refused that Fate in the end, for the love of his daughter.... It may be twisted, but I don't think that Griffith is bad, he just had the "right personality" for Fate's plans.

Post by **Femto** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:24 pm

The_Paya wrote:Well, at least it may be like in science, rediscussing a theory may bring new ideas to it. But it's also true, chapters take so long that the whole manga can be discussed twice in the middle.

From my experience, I can tell you that the second option is the truth.

The thing is, all this sutff has been talked about so much that it gets boring after a while. Skull Knight speculation, Guts' behelit, Gaiseric, the Godhand, reborn Griffith, the child at the beach, all this stuff has been talked about before, extensively I might add. If a new SK theory arises, and it's so awesome that it makes people piss their pants, it's still just another theory, and there will be 10x more people than those that like it willing to shot the theory down. I've learned to keep stuff to myself, because I've seen other people post every little theory I've thought of before me. Anybody can give a million+ theories, but the only thing that matters is when we get the facts. That's why we have the Stupid theories thread, to keep things from getting stale and boring.

Goddammit, I need to get the hell out of these boards and get to work on my finals.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:26 pm

Did I tell you guys I hated Hero...?

Post by **Femto** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:28 pm

Eldo wrote:Did I tell you guys I hated Hero...?

Probably. Everything has been discussed before y'know.

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:29 pm

Eldo wrote:Did I tell you guys I hated Hero...?

I actually hated Hero a lot too :+P.

Post by **dos.azn** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:35 pm

hero sucked. no plot whatsoever. if only visuals were wat made a movie good, then "the day after tomorrow" would be a good movie

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:36 pm

Who is Hero? ^^
I hope thi is not a noob question

Post by **Femto** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:38 pm

It's a chinese movie. I'm pretty sure you must've heard about it before.

IMDB link.

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:39 pm

It's a movie. Link to sample

edit: Femto, go to work with your finals!!! :+P

Post by **Arresty** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:42 pm

I loved the movie.

And Sahlen if you think that post is long you haven't seen anything yet. Some of the ones me and some of the other regulars have put out in the past put that one to shame. Sometimes you just have alot to say.

The_Paya: Well the whole child turned demon I don't think was part of fate, since Casca was not supposed to live, so neither would have the child. They all three exist outside of fate. Also with Guts killing the count, that was also outside of fate, so he was not fated to turn it down, or to sacrifice his daughter. He was never supposed to be there. That was Guts changing fate.

And me and Buz went on forever about the whole end justifies the means and such argument in some other thread a while back. I think we finally gave up since both of us stood hard with out opposite stances. But if it has happened in a previous chapter it probably has been discussed, but still give us your ideas, sometimes we see new stuff. That is the main reason we are so against people starting new threads, alot of times its starting a thread about something we are all tired as hell of talking about. But if it comes up again in a thread it will either be discussed again or someone will just be like, we heard it already. But do keep thinking of ideas and theories because we are here to discuss. Just keep them in the appropriate places and even if we have discussed a million times you won't get flamed or anything.

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:42 pm

Uff!
I almost thought it would be something relating berserk and I didn't know it..
I'm saved ^^

Post by **dos.azn** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:44 pm

surprised you dont know about it, after all the advertising they did for it. they were even able to put.....uhhhh.....hmmm.....whos that guy who desperately wants to sodomize uma thurman....ah yes! quentin tarantino! yeah they were even able to put his name on the movie to attract more viewers

Post by **Femto** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:45 pm

The_Paya wrote:edit: Femto, go to work with your finals!!! :+P

Shit, you're right... I'm outta here!

+1

Post by **The_Paya** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:47 pm

Arresty: To me Gutts is also on Fate plans. Even the Skullknight where changing Fate before Gutts, since the hints that Gutts is walking the same path as the SK. It was fate that let Gutts come back and try to save Griffith, he had the choice to not to go, and the eclipse would never happened then. If you go back to the very little detail, it was like "all planned" (besides this is coming from Miura mind who may have already planned the end of this).

Post by **Sahlen** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:52 pm

dos.azn wrote:surprised you dont know about it, after all the advertising they did for it. they were even able to put.....uhhhh.....hmmm.....whos that guy who desperately wants to sodomize uma thurman....ah yes! quentin tarantino! yeah they were even able to put his name on the movie to attract more viewers

I'm from German and I've never heard something about this film.
Maybe they didn't do enough advertising here.

Post by **Arresty** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:54 pm

Guts lived inside of fate up until the eclipse. After the eclipse he is supposed to be dead. The brand itself is proof that fate has declared him dead. Since he is "dead" then he no longer has any fate and can change fate.

Also as far as I know SK is still bound by fate. He makes references to how he is not fated to do something yet, but he comments on how Guts might be able to change his fate since he should be dead now.

Post by **dos.azn** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:57 pm

Sahlen wrote:
dos.azn wrote:surprised you dont know about it, after all the advertising they did for it. they were even able to put.....uhhhh.....hmmm.....whos that guy who desperately wants to sodomize uma thurman....ah yes! quentin tarantino! yeah they were even able to put his name on the movie to attract more viewers
I'm from German and I've never heard something about this film.
Maybe they didn't do enough advertising here.

its alright man. its not a movie to really look forward to anyway