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[Istvan]

in this story, Gaiseric has a lot in common with grifith. Guts even notices it in the Tower of Rebirth:
no-one knows where he comes from. he is suddenly there with a powerfull army. conquering the whole world
also Gaiseric and Skullknight got a lot in common,
it might be possible for Gaiseric to be the 5th godhand, then the other Godhand members destroyed him and he became Skullknight
just some wild guesses

This kind of seems to contradict some of what was said in the witche's forest. Specifically, when Guts first appears with the armor, Zodd asks SK if he's going to have Guts walk the same cursed path that he did. Since we're almost positive that Guts can't in any way become a God's Hand (nor would he want to) this would seem to imply that Sk's path also did not involve being a member of the God's Hand.

[Aetherfukz]

Yeah the witch says to Skully "is it because you suffer from the same curse as them?" which would indicate he himself was a sacrifice once. But she also tells him she believes "that he still has a human heart" which would point otherwise. Or perhaps that he just had gone the same way as Guts, but lost all/most of his humanity on the way.

[MrFelony]

curse could be interpretted in many ways though. Guts "curse" could simply be his quest to kill griffith. he is cursed to not be able to forget about it and settle down (or something like that). too much speculation involved so might as well see where it actually goes lol. but hey, it's the newbie thread so do whatever you want here

[The Prince]

Carefull with double posts. Edit your other one to add the stuff

I will try and be more careful next time......

[MrFelony]

well i was going to edit my post, but now i dont have to . I like what you said about it being an older generation of god hand members because that would fit well with the spiral theme of the story. history repeating itself, but not exactly the same each cycle.

[The Prince]

well i was going to edit my post, but now i dont have to . I like what you said about it being an older generation of god hand members because that would fit well with the spiral theme of the story. history repeating itself, but not exactly the same each cycle.

Causality.....Now all we need is a confrontation between Guts and some old man in a chair surrounded by a bunch of TV's.

[Eldo]

If Skull Knight was responsible for the death of the previous generation of the God Hand, it would seem his efforts are wasted from what we have currently seen. You could cut the hand but it grows back. To quote V from V for Vendetta, 'Ideas are bulletproof'. Guts might be the bullet piercing shot that is able to beat down Idea, and in turn end the God Hand completely. It explains Skull Knight's fascination and investment on Guts.

Normally I'd shoot down theories like this as this is speculation at it's purest form, but what the hell, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. However, I firmly believe that Skull Knight is indeed Gaiseric, and based on his previous attempts and mentions on striking down Void, which might suggest some kind of grudge, Void was the one who bought down the 4/5 angels down from 'heaven' and destroyed the kingdom.

However, one has to question why Skull Knight has a immense fascination with Guts, even appearing as the deus ex machina in many scenarios. I don't think that Guts is simply just walking down Skull Knight's path that has his attention. There must be something different about Guts that sets Skull Knight apart, which he could eventually manipulate.

[Eedze]

well there might be something. considering we don't know anything of Guts parents except he was found below a corpse

in this story, Gaiseric has a lot in common with grifith. Guts even notices it in the Tower of Rebirth:
no-one knows where he comes from. he is suddenly there with a powerfull army. conquering the whole world
also Gaiseric and Skullknight got a lot in common,
it might be possible for Gaiseric to be the 5th godhand, then the other Godhand members destroyed him and he became Skullknight
just some wild guesses

This kind of seems to contradict some of what was said in the witche's forest. Specifically, when Guts first appears with the armor, Zodd asks SK if he's going to have Guts walk the same cursed path that he did. Since we're almost positive that Guts can't in any way become a God's Hand (nor would he want to) this would seem to imply that Sk's path also did not involve being a member of the God's Hand.

Zodd says: Do you plan on making him walk the same path as you, To follow your footsteps down the path of hell.

wich could also be translated that he will battle against the forces of hell

also in the domain Qliphoth, where Slan appears and wounds Guts, Skullknight shows up too. Slan calls him, your Majesty. wich might be the title he had as king Gaiseric, but i think that there is no honor in those words, It might be that he got that title granted by the Godhand. but now they are enemy's

[The Prince]

in this story, Gaiseric has a lot in common with grifith. Guts even notices it in the Tower of Rebirth:
no-one knows where he comes from. he is suddenly there with a powerfull army. conquering the whole world
also Gaiseric and Skullknight got a lot in common,
it might be possible for Gaiseric to be the 5th godhand, then the other Godhand members destroyed him and he became Skullknight
just some wild guesses

This kind of seems to contradict some of what was said in the witche's forest. Specifically, when Guts first appears with the armor, Zodd asks SK if he's going to have Guts walk the same cursed path that he did. Since we're almost positive that Guts can't in any way become a God's Hand (nor would he want to) this would seem to imply that Sk's path also did not involve being a member of the God's Hand.

-I do recall this scene vividly, and is the only place in the storyline (as far as I know), where something is implied that would go against having a theory implying that Griffith is merely following the same path and pursuing the same dream, same course of events as Gaeseric 1000yrs prior.

-In this scene where Zodd asks SK if he's going to have Guts walk the same cursed path that he did, one might be inclined to believe that it is Gutz who might be predestined to follow in SK's footsteps. Where it is assumed SK is in fact Gaeseric.

-BUT IMO Zodd's statement was more or less pertaining to the owner of the cursed armor walking a path of constant inner turmoil and risk of ultimately losing their humanity for the sake of revenge, as is the case with Gutz and was with the SK.

-Though IMO this still doesn't have to contradict what had been theorized earlier......

MOST IMPORTANT:

-In regards to what seems to be a paralleled course of events perpetuated every 1000 years, where in time Griffith himself may find "4-angels" descending and destroying his kindom/dream as well.....In a causality perpetuated cycle doomed to repeat itself every millenia.

BUT I believe that Gut's character who for reasons described, has been able to defy his fate throughout his life, thus making him an anomaly of sorts. And for those reasons, there can be no analogous figure to compare a Guts to in regards to past history. And because he exists outside of the "cycle" predetermined by causality, he is an X-factor in all of this. And might have the power to break the chains of fate.

[Death&Rebirth]

Normally I'd shoot down theories like this as this is speculation at it's purest form, but what the hell, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. However, I firmly believe that Skull Knight is indeed Gaiseric, and based on his previous attempts and mentions on striking down Void, which might suggest some kind of grudge, Void was the one who bought down the 4/5 angels down from 'heaven' and destroyed the kingdom.

Well, theoretical speaking it would make sense all with the speculation that Void was someone close to Gaiseric (a brother or someone seen "as a brother to") that to ascend as the first of the Godhand sacrifice Gaiseric. Or simply Gaiseric belong to the first "4/5 angels" group that was brought down by void in his ascension to Godhand. Now if we take a closer look at the time line in sk.net (not a law but still the most accurate thing as reference), from the establishment of the Midland empire to the birth of Void passes 216 years, which would contradict that Gaiseric/Skullknight could be contemporaneous with "Who would be Void". Know we also know that Gaiseric wore a full Skull Helm and that what brought the first midland empire was a Sacrifice ritual (in p128 of vol10, we see in bottom of the tower were Griffith it's being held prisoner, a great number of corpses with the brand on the forehead). Also, earleir in vol10 Godhand contacts with Griffith and say they are family (p39) and also call him "angel of the longing".

Now, my theory in the Gaiseric issue, after reading the manga and all this debate, is the following, so bare with me:

Gaiseric, like much of you stated and "firmly believe" is Skullknight. In this I'm 100% sure.
He creates the Midland empire and in some kind of ritual, that isn't the Eclipse, he becomes something more that an mere apostle, emerging as Skullknight. Midland empire his brought down by a group of 4/5 angels, in this I'm not sure. I'm sure that a Eclipse happens which brings Gaiseric midland empire to crumble. In this, Void is born, alas making Void responsible for that. Gaiseric grunge might be motivated by that or/and that Gaiseric/Skullknight sees himself in a lower position now, in some kind of godly hierarchy. Skullknight sees that he hasn't another choice but to bring down Godhand (Void, Conrad, Ubik and Slan). The revenge motivation might be what links Skullknight with Gutts. Now, who is or was Zodd? We don't know much, besides of what Ricket and Pippin say? But considering the confrontation between Zodd and Skullknight (and they share the same amount of power skill), I'd say they are from the same time and they were both members of the initial group of angels. Zodd, might have accepted that Void was indeed stronger than him to the point of defending him against Skullknight.
What also points that Skullknight was Gaiseric, is the way Slan teases him be calling Majesty: it can induce that Skullknight was indeed king/emperor Gaiseric and/or that Skullknight was the one that ruled before Void.
Gutts it's the enigma. He can't be an apostle but his rage can grant him power enough (with some boost from the Berserk Armor) to establish a equilibrium in strength/power. Flora says that Gutts still has human heart and that his what differences him From Skullknight.

Sorry about the rant and about some inconsistencies. But this the best i can speculate in this with the info there is.
I hope Miura can gives us more about Skullknight/Gaiseric when they reach elfhelm.

[Istvan]

He creates the Midland empire and in some kind of ritual, that isn't the Eclipse, he becomes something more that an mere apostle, emerging as Skullknight.

Doubtful. My impression from a number of things is that he didn't just "become" Skull Knight, it was a gradual process where he changed over a period of time. So the first step would have been wearing the Berserk Armor, and the effect that had on his body (as indicated in conversations in the forest and on the beach), and then there were other things later that continued to make him less and less human over time. I also get the impression that this process was started in his attempt to gain the power he'd need to destroy Void.

But considering the confrontation between Zodd and Skullknight (and they share the same amount of power skill), I'd say they are from the same time and they were both members of the initial group of angels. Zodd, might have accepted that Void was indeed stronger than him to the point of defending him against Skullknight.

Sorry, wrong. First, Zodd is not as strong as SK, he comes closer than any other Apostle we've seen to this point, but SK was clearly and decisively the stronger of the two. Second, Zodd has explicitly said that he's around 300 years old, which makes him way too young to be from the same era as Gaiseric was. As far as we know Zodd is just one of the strongest Apostles (I'd have said the strongest until we met the Emperor).

[War Machine]

The Midland Empire was formed a thousand years before, but it doesn't say exactly when Gaiseric ceased to be the emperor. Apparently there was some civil unrest from the heavy taxation used to build the Midland capitol, so the angels came and destroyed everything. That's when Gaiseric disappeared from history, so his transformation into Skull Knight could've happened at the moment the angels attacked or as a gradual process after the attack. And all this happened during the wake of Midland Empire, so there's really no indication (yet) that Gaiseric used powers from or was part of the God Hand.

I'm still hoping Guts will return to the Tower of Rebirth.

PS: We're talking about the same thing in two threads.

[The Prince]

He creates the Midland empire and in some kind of ritual, that isn't the Eclipse, he becomes something more that an mere apostle, emerging as Skullknight.

Doubtful. My impression from a number of things is that he didn't just "become" Skull Knight, it was a gradual process where he changed over a period of time. So the first step would have been wearing the Berserk Armor, and the effect that had on his body (as indicated in conversations in the forest and on the beach), and then there were other things later that continued to make him less and less human over time. I also get the impression that this process was started in his attempt to gain the power he'd need to destroy Void.

But considering the confrontation between Zodd and Skullknight (and they share the same amount of power skill), I'd say they are from the same time and they were both members of the initial group of angels. Zodd, might have accepted that Void was indeed stronger than him to the point of defending him against Skullknight.

Sorry, wrong. First, Zodd is not as strong as SK, he comes closer than any other Apostle we've seen to this point, but SK was clearly and decisively the stronger of the two. Second, Zodd has explicitly said that he's around 300 years old, which makes him way too young to be from the same era as Gaiseric was. As far as we know Zodd is just one of the strongest Apostles (I'd have said the strongest until we met the Emperor).

-Although I'm pretty sure Zodd has only been around 300 yrs or so. Just thought I'd mention that in the first chapter of Vol. 13, Storm of Death (1) I believe, when both the SK and Zodd are about to square off beside the whirlwind on the lake during the eclipse, referring to the SK....

Zodd says: "You. Who've been our foe for a Millenium"...."I figured you wouldn't let this chance slip past"

-Also in reference to an earlier remark about why Zodd was the only apostle outside the eclipse; When SK asks Zodd why he was not participating......

Zodd replies: "Hardly, I had no interest in their indulgent spree. What I seek are the strong. You should know that OLD RIVAL"

[Istvan]

-Although I'm pretty sure Zodd has only been around 300 yrs or so. Just thought I'd mention that in the first chapter of Vol. 13, Storm of Death (1) I believe, when both the SK and Zodd are about to square off beside the whirlwind on the lake during the eclipse, referring to the SK....

Zodd says: "You. Who've been our foe for a Millenium"...."I figured you wouldn't let this chance slip past"

This has actually been addressed before on this thread, it was a mistranslation. I forget what the actual words Zodd used meant, but it didn't in any way imply he'd been alive more than a few centuries.

When SK asks Zodd why he was not participating......

Zodd replies: "Hardly, I had no interest in their indulgent spree. What I seek are the strong. You should know that OLD RIVAL"[/i][/b]

I think that four or five fights (or even more, who knows?) over a couple of centuries would be enough to qualify someone as an "old rival", Zodd didn't have to be as old as SK for this phrase to work.

[The Prince]

-Something has always bothered me since reading those Chapters where Griffith's New Band of the Hawk comes out of nowhere to ambush the Kushan army during their invasion of the Vatican City (around ch 277 or so). I recall the Kushan's being bewildered since from the direction in which Griffith's army appeared and approached, there were only a bunch of cliffs jetting off from the ocean (not mention the fact that the entire harbor was in shambles at the time).

In other words where is the reader to assume these forces appeared from?

-I can perhaps buy into the fact that beings like Griffith and certain apostles may be able to appear out of thin air, but are we to assume his entire army is capable of that too? Considering much of his force is comprised of normal human battalions in addition to apostles.

And what about all the horses that the cavalry rides in on? Are we to assume these are magical horses? And just because an apostle rides a horse, like that White Knight Guy, are we to assume that those horses are a part of them or are some kind of apostle horse in themselves? Where perhaps each horse would have sacrificed their stablemates in a ritual of their own?

[Aetherfukz]

Well regarding where they came from: When Guts' party was at the beach with the mysterious kid, I think after they defeated the crocs Guts looks over his shoulder to the cliffs where something is moving, and he says along the lines of "only my imagination?" - I always thought that the thing moving was Griffith and his army. Why otherwise would Guts notice them and think about them, if it wasn't some apostle or Griffith himself marching far away.

[The Prince]

Well regarding where they came from: When Guts' party was at the beach with the mysterious kid, I think after they defeated the crocs Guts looks over his shoulder to the cliffs where something is moving, and he says along the lines of "only my imagination?" - I always thought that the thing moving was Griffith and his army. Why otherwise would Guts notice them and think about them, if it wasn't some apostle or Griffith himself marching far away.

I assumed that was the Kushan army.

[Istvan]

-Something has always bothered me since reading those Chapters where Griffith's New Band of the Hawk comes out of nowhere to ambush the Kushan army during their invasion of the Vatican City (around ch 277 or so). I recall the Kushan's being bewildered since from the direction in which Griffith's army appeared and approached, there were only a bunch of cliffs jetting off from the ocean (not mention the fact that the entire harbor was in shambles at the time).

In other words where is the reader to assume these forces appeared from?

-I can perhaps buy into the fact that beings like Griffith and certain apostles may be able to appear out of thin air, but are we to assume his entire army is capable of that too? Considering much of his force is comprised of normal human battalions in addition to apostles.

And what about all the horses that the cavalry rides in on? Are we to assume these are magical horses? And just because an apostle rides a horse, like that White Knight Guy, are we to assume that those horses are a part of them or are some kind of apostle horse in themselves? Where perhaps each horse would have sacrificed their stablemates in a ritual of their own?

Go reread the chapter. They do not appear out of thin air, or any such thing. In chapter 280, on page 21 and 22 you can see the answer. The troops were hiding in the holds of a few "wrecked" ships that Griffith presumably arranged to be there ahead of time. The reason the Kushans were surprised is that there didn't seem to be anywhere to hide an army over there, and certainly not a large one. But because the Hawks are relatively few, and by hiding in the "shipwrecks" that the Kushans overlooked, they were able to carry out Griffith's ambush. Mind, the ambush itself wouldn't have worked if not for the insane combat skills of the Apostles, but that's another story...

[The Prince]

-Something has always bothered me since reading those Chapters where Griffith's New Band of the Hawk comes out of nowhere to ambush the Kushan army during their invasion of the Vatican City (around ch 277 or so). I recall the Kushan's being bewildered since from the direction in which Griffith's army appeared and approached, there were only a bunch of cliffs jetting off from the ocean (not mention the fact that the entire harbor was in shambles at the time).

In other words where is the reader to assume these forces appeared from?

-I can perhaps buy into the fact that beings like Griffith and certain apostles may be able to appear out of thin air, but are we to assume his entire army is capable of that too? Considering much of his force is comprised of normal human battalions in addition to apostles.

And what about all the horses that the cavalry rides in on? Are we to assume these are magical horses? And just because an apostle rides a horse, like that White Knight Guy, are we to assume that those horses are a part of them or are some kind of apostle horse in themselves? Where perhaps each horse would have sacrificed their stablemates in a ritual of their own?

Go reread the chapter. They do not appear out of thin air, or any such thing. In chapter 280, on page 21 and 22 you can see the answer. The troops were hiding in the holds of a few "wrecked" ships that Griffith presumably arranged to be there ahead of time. The reason the Kushans were surprised is that there didn't seem to be anywhere to hide an army over there, and certainly not a large one. But because the Hawks are relatively few, and by hiding in the "shipwrecks" that the Kushans overlooked, they were able to carry out Griffith's ambush. Mind, the ambush itself wouldn't have worked if not for the insane combat skills of the Apostles, but that's another story...

I did see that, though it wasn't clear to me what was being shown. As I assumed Griffith's army was sizeable, and only relatively small when compared to the Kushan Army.

[Istvan]

Well, it's also kind of hard to tell just how big that ship's full size was. Some ships from that period, like those designed to carry bulk grain and such, were incredibly huge. If they didn't have to be in there very long, you could pack a pretty decent sized force into one.

[The Prince]

Does anyone know where I could get a download for the song "Sign" from the PS2 soundtrack?
I already bought the anime soundtrack, and just want this song.

Thanks.....

[lon3vvolf]

I've got the game and the soundtrack, but I'm not sharing, cuz I'm just an ass like that.

[Aetherfukz]

Didn't that game only come out in Japan? Is it worth modding your PS2 for? Cause there's this funny torrent looking at me sometimes, screaming "Dude download me and just mod your freakin' station and be the Guts, man!...

[The Prince]

I've got the game and the soundtrack, but I'm not sharing, cuz I'm just an ass like that.

Sweet...don't trouble yourself. We already know you're an ass, further validation is simply overkill.
\

[War Machine]

I modded my PS2 and it's the best thing I've ever done with it. The Berserk game is a lot of fun, but the fighting is completely optional and enemies never stop coming out, so for the most part, you're only running around until you get into a fight with a load of monsters you have to kill or a boss fight.

Anyway, go for the DMS4 chip, it's relatively cheap and very reliable. But I must warn you that low quality DVDs will wear out your PS2's lens, so use Verbatim DVDs, I learned that the hard way. I've had the chip on my slim PS2 for about 2 years now, and aside from the lens getting burned out (which I replaced), it's been working great.