The _really long_ Berserk Theory

[Creatine]

Hey all. This isn't really a theory but more of a strange observation of mine. Up until last week, I have not read the "lost chapters" of Berserk ( Chap. 82 and 83, respectivly), and those chapters were the clincher (for me at least), and I could see why Miura requested them to be taken out.
Before I got any further, I have to commend Miura; Berserk is among (if not the most) compelling, thought provoking pieces of literature I have ever read; and I have read A LOT. So, here we go. It's a long post, so I thank anyone who takes the time to read it.
Note* While writing this, I saw how one can be lost, so instead of multiple posts, I opted instead of numerical notations in the form of (Number) at the end of a statement or point of reference. Thanks again for putting up with all this jargon. I'll try to make this post as organized as possible.
--------------------------------------------MAJOR-SPOILERS!!!!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I watched the anime (I watched the anime before read the manga and was in High School at the time), I was interested at the idea of angels actually being devils (the God Hand). I then read the manga, and in volume 3, when the God Hand is first introduced in the manga for the first time, and we are given a flashback of the Counts ascent (descent?) to Apostlehood. He said;
"Are you gods? Or, are you messengers of the false god!?"(More on this later) (1)
We also witness the vortex (maelstrom?) for the first time. It is called Hell at this time (more on this later) (2)
Another point of interest for me was the mention of the God Hand themselves; mythology (I consider modern theology as mythology; sorry, I'm an athiest) is a past time of mine, and the term "God Hand" (to me) begs the possibilty of other parts, such as a head (more on this later, as it is important) (3)
All this is in the beginning of the manga (respectivly). I will set this aside (as I have a ways to go) so I can set up what I learned about a very interesting man by the name of Jacob Boehme.

Jacob Boehme was a young german shoe maker, and in 1610 he had a vision (visit? message?) from "god" via light reflected off a pewter dish he was examining. (4)
His vision contained profound theological insights well beyond his educational level, which amounted to little more than Bible study and sole-cobbling techniques. He came to the conlusion that God was a binary, fractal, self-replicating algorithm and that the universe was a genetic matrix resulting from the existential tension created by His desire for self-knowledge. (5)
His writings were Gnostic( NOT AGNOSTIC) and kabbalistic in nature (The kabbalistic nature is VERY important). His concepts often reflected Eastern spiritual concepts that were not widely known in Germany at the time. Böhme began with a radical rethink of the traditional Judeo-Christian God. He threw out the traditional picture of a guy with a beard and long robes in favor of an abstract, formless deity. (6)

I must interrupt myself. I wish to be a lucid as possible, and I feel that explaining what Gnosticism and the Kabbalah are is needed.
The core set of beliefs held by the Gnostics included one or more of the following tenets (mixing and matching from the list was encouraged);
The world was created by an Evil God (usually identified as the Old Testament God) who was acting without proper authorization from the Good God, who was the secret and true God. (7)
The material world, for either the reason above or some other reason, is therefore inherently evil and flawed. (8)
All that stuff in the New Testament is just the mass market version of what Christianity was supposed to be, while the Gnostics possessed the special edition DVD of Christianity with lots of bonus features, including secret teachings which were denied to the unworthy. (9)
They base our path to God on not so much as faith as we do reason.
They know that Anything that can be asked can & will be answered. (10)
They know there are no mysteries.
That believing on faith alone is exhausting.
That they bring reason. (11)

Now, explaining what Kabbalah is. Kabbalah is mainly based on two texts, the Sepher Yetzirah ("the book of creation") and the Zohar ("the book of enlightenment").
Sepher Yetzirah is a collection of secret traditions supposedly passed down from Abraham. It describes the structure of the universe and the method of its creation, including an extremely convoluted series of planes of existence, based on geometry and key numerical sequences derived from the Hebrew alphabet. While probably not dating back to the time of Abraham, whenever that actually was, it is the older of the two texts and probably runs at least as far back as the second century B.C.
Together, the books outline a sweeping vision of the structure of reality, including guidelines on how to alter it in nontraditional ways, which more or less amount to magic (12).
Based on the two key texts, medieval occultists and Jewish mystics created a massive body of writings about metaphysics, alchemy and magic. Because it covers material related to the Old Testament, kabbalah was adopted by both Jews and Christians. Kabbalism also led to the development of Hasidism among Eastern European Jews.
The most readily identifiable concept in kabbalism is the Tree of Life, a diagram that is essentially a map of reality. The Tree of Life consists of three columns known as "pillars", and 10 sephiroth, or spheres, each of which represents an aspect of the process God used to create the world (this is, again, VERY IMPORTANT) (13).
At the top of the diagram is Kether, "The Crown", which represents the divine intelligence of God, from which all of creation emanates. The three pillars emanate down from Kether all the way down to Malkuth at the bottom. (The word means "Kingdom"; the bottom sephira is also sometimes called Shekhinah.) Kether is the angle at which reality points toward the creator; Malkuth is the angle at which is points toward His creation -- the earthly world.(Again, 13)
In traditional kabbalism, there are 10 sephiroth, although some schools teach of a "hidden" 11th in the middle of the diagram. Each sephira has different characteristics and is represented by a different Hebrew letter, which also corresponds to a number. The 10 sephiroth are connected by 22 lines, known as "paths," each of which carries a specific meaning. Some occult traditions teach that the paths correspond to the major arcana in the Tarot.
The chart comes to life as a result of emanations, a concept which covers the movement of will, force, divine spark, light, energy and reality from God to creation. Emanations are the manifestation of divine intelligence as a material or metaphysical thing, such as an angel or a soul. (14)
Because the shape of emanations is outlined by the Tree of Life (supplemented by information contained in numerous other kabbalistic writings), the Tree and the Hebrew alphabet can be used to calculate the "true names" of things. If you know the true name of something, you can control it, which quickly led medieval kabbalists to become ritual magicians (as well as inspiring medieval ritual magicians to become kabbalists). (15)
With kabbalistic secrets firmly in hand, the well-informed can construct magic words that presumably empower users to command the very forces of the universe. Angels and demons, in particular, are susceptible to this sort of control. (15)
Truly ambitious sorcerers also sought the true name of God, the most powerful magic word imaginable. The search for God's true name took on epic proportions during the middle ages. The name was referred to as the Tetragrammaton, because it was believed to have four letters (YHWH). (16)
To a greater or lesser extent, kabbalism is the basis of nearly every tradition covered under the general heading of "occultism". Kabbalah is the basis for the rumored occult practices of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and the Knights Templar, the stylings of the O.T.O., the antichrist rituals of Jack Parsons, and the creation of mystical beings such as the Golem. Scientology is also roughly modeled on the kabbalah, albeit filtered through a Battlestar Galactica sensibility. (17)

That is finally out of the way. Back to Broehme (Please be patient! I hope that some of you can tell where I'll be going with this)

With the underlinings of his writings now known, I'll go back to Boehme, or, more accuratly, his writings.
Prior to the creation of man, Böhme wrote, God was an undifferentiated single unity defined by the absence of everything else -- the Abyss, or "Ungrund." (18)
Creation was the result of the Ungrund dividing from its state of original unity -- a proposition completely familiar to Taoists but foreign and offensive to Böhme's fellow Lutherans.
Even more controversially, Böhme argued that God could not be omniscient and omnipotent, since He was eternal and unique. "He knows no beginning, and also nothing like Himself, and also no end," Böhme wrote, arguing that God created man in His own image so that He could learn about Himself. (19)
To initiate this learning process, God rendered Himself into positive and negative aspects -- yin and yang to the Taoists, although the material substance of Böhme's universe is not itself synonymous with God. (20)
Prior to the initial split, God was only a potential mind with an unformed longing to know itself. After the split, God iterated into a binary-based matrix, continually increasing in complexity as He collected more and more information about Himself. In other words, Böhme's God evolves with the passage of time, in sharp contrast to the traditional Judeo-Christian view of a perfect, complete and unchanging figure who exists outside the normal flow of time. (21)
The positive and negative aspects of creation were necessarily opposed to each other, and Böhme believed that this conflict was at the heart of the universe's logic and all of its processes. Since this tension is inherent to the design of all reality, evil and suffering are a necessary part of reality -- and both originate with God. (22)
The tension between God's positive and negative aspects boils down to an identity crisis -- cosmic self-loathing. The positive force is the part of God that chose to differentiate itself in search of self-knowledge; the negative force is the part of God that seeks to return to its original unified state (obliterating reality in the process). Böhme characterized this negative force as "divine wrath," the eternal frustration of seeking a goal that can never be accomplished.(23)
In Böhme's cosmology, the wrathful element of God as the Father, the beneficient element as Jesus Christ, the Son. The syzygy of the conflict between the opposite poles created a process of change -- the Holy Spirit, as the continual interaction of the Father and Son through time. (24
Böhme presented the universe as the product of the dueling forces of Father and Son, one bent on disordering and a return to unity (entropy), the other bent on ordering and harmonizing in the process of differentiation (organization), a formula now understood to foreshadow key concepts in chaos theory and genetic sequencing. The human body and soul, according to Böhme, were a microcosm of the divine model, akin to the holographic universe physics model first formally proposed in the 20th century. (Again, 24)
Böhme expanded on these thoughts to develop theoretical frameworks encompassing virtually every aspect of the Christian mystical experience, covering everything from Sacred Geometry to the book of Genesis to the nature of Satan, the angels and the Antichrist. (25)
With the basic underlying premise of creation firmly in hand, Böhme turned his attention to the details, integrating concepts from the Kabbalah and alchemy, and laying out a foundation for scientific and especially philosophical thought that exerted a wide-ranging influence on the elite minds of the Enlightenment (although the controversial nature of his assertions often kept that influence below the radar). Böhme's work reflected so many diverse spiritual concepts that he is considered to be the father of Theosophy -- a precursor to the New Age movement which stipulates that all religions are basically talking about the same thing in different words. (26)

Here are some qoutes by Broehme;
"When thou standest still from thinking and willing of self, the eternal hearing, seeing, and speaking will be revealed to thee, and so God heareth and seeth through thee. Thine own hearing, willing, and seeing hindereth thee, that thou dost not see nor hear God." (26)

"When thou art quiet and silent, then art thou as God was before nature and creature; thou art that which God then wats; thou art that whereof he made thy nature and creature: Then thou hearest and seest even with that wherewith God himself saw and heard in thee, before every thine own willing or thine own seeing began." (27)

"You are at enmity with yourself." (28)

"When in such sadness I earnestly elevated my spirit into God and locked my whole heart and mind along with all my thoughts and will therein, ceaselessly pressing in with God's Love and Mercy, and not to cease until he blessed me… then after some hard storms my spirit broke through hell's gates into the inmost birth of the Godhead, and there I was embraced with Love as a bridegroom embraces his dear bride.” (29)

“In this light my spirit suddenly saw through all, and in and by all creatures, even in herbs and grass it knew God, who he is, and how he is, and what his will is: And suddenly in that light my will was set on by a mighty impulse, to describe the being of God.” (30)

“What kind of spiritual triumph it was I can neither write nor speak; it can only be compared with that where life is born in the midst of death, and is like the resurrection of the dead.” (31)

“I did not climb up into the Godhead, neither can so mean a man as I am do it; but the Godhead climbed up in me, and revealed such to me out of his Love.” (32)

“I contemplated man's little spark, what it should be valued before God alongside of this great work of heaven and earth.” (33)

Whew. After Miura wrote chapter 176 of Berserk (when Griffith was re-incarnated/resurrected back in human form) he said "Now, Berserk can truly begin!"
I'll say the same. After all this track, my post can truly begin! Miura as woven an AMAZING tale that I hope can be considered as a testament of Theosophy!
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(1) When the count asks the God Hand during the flashback "Are you gods? Or, are you messengers of the false god!?" it can be the first hint, double negative or just character depth. The reason for my reasoning is, that the Count was a very pious man, or at least had the facade of a pious man. BUT, he purchased his Behelit from some gypsies (or something), indicating at least some interest for the occult while slaying people who were doing the same. The reason for double negative, is that he was mocking himself at the stress of the moment. OR (and this is what I think) he was referring to Binitarianism, or some form of it. As he was a count and a head of Inquisition trials, it would not be totally out of the picture that he was very educated in theology, and coupled with the stress of the moment, 4 "sides" of God instead of two did not seem too jarring (Femto was not yet born). BUT it could have been him just losing faith and grabbing any form of vengence he can *shrugs*. It is the second part of the statement ("Or are you messengers of the false god!?") that is my point of interest. To me, it is a direct reference to the Evil God in gnosticism, as well as Boehme's idea of the "negative" aspect of God. In this instance they are the same.

(2,4,5,6,7,8,13,18,19,21,22,24,26,29,30,31,32,) The vortex is a VERY important aspect. Though it is slightly glimpsed in chapter 82, It is explained in chapter 83, and this is why I think Miura requested it's removal; it was so damn revealing (just so that there isn't any confusion, "The Idea" and God in this entire post are one in the same. I'll clarify this later on);

Griffith: What's this?!...
The Idea: An ocean
Griffith: (.....I'm sinking....)

Griffith: (The light is going farther)
(....this?)
(Where is this?)
(Where is my body...?)
(I'm sinking)
(....deeper)

Griffith: (...Is this!?)

Griffith: (Everyone's death)
(passes through me...)

Griffith: (...I desired this)
(I killed them)
(It's a miracle... I feel nothing)
(...I'm sinking...)


Griffith: ...What's this?
Voice: You've shed the last of your crystal tears.
when one is experiencing the agony, that destroys himself
it leads him to freeze his heart. [It makes that person emotionless]
Griffith: ...something's
here.

Griffith: ...Beherit?
Voice: That splash [Alt. "That spray"]
A drop of desire falls overflowing this sea in the distance.
This drop is an invitation to a different world.

Griffith: ....God?
The Idea of Evil: Welcome
The Idea: Human
Griffith: Are you God?...
The Idea: I am
The Idea: the Idea

The Idea: The desired God
The Idea: The Idea of Evil

Griffith: God...
Griffith: This, God? This huge... lump of flesh?...
The Idea: What you are seeing is a part of me
The Idea: My core
The Idea: Look around you

Griffith: What's this?!..

The Idea: All humans have, deep in their souls
The Idea: a common consciousness that transcends individuality
The Idea: Their collective consciousness as a species
The Idea: Its dark side is this swelling ocean
The Idea: I was born from these swells
The Idea: as the ego of this world
The Idea: This world itself is I
The Idea: The darkness
The Idea: that dwells in every human heart
The Idea: The Idea of Evil
The Idea: This is God

Griffith: God... This...
Griffith: Does that mean that...
Griffith: Does that mean that it was humans who created God?
Griffith: Does that mean that it was humans who desired this?
Griffith: This terrifying thing?
Griffith: This... This looks like...
The Idea: Hell
The Idea: Some call it that way
Griffith: Hell...
The Idea: This is just the surface
The Idea: of the multiple layers of the whole consciousness
The Idea: But you know
The Idea: You know that this place is terribly human

The Idea: Violence and loneliness...
The Idea: This place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings
The Idea: It is truly the will that defines human nature
Griffith: ... Yes
Griffith: it's true
Griffith: This is... in me
Griffith: I can feel it
Griffith: But why?
Griffith: Why were you born?
Griffith: Why did humans give birth to this will called God?
The Idea: Humans
The Idea: desired reasons

The Idea: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
The Idea: Reasons for life
The Idea: Reasons for death
The Idea: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
The Idea: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
Griffith: And that was
Griffith: God...
The Idea: And I produce those
The Idea: As it is what I've been brought to existence for
The Idea: I control destiny

The Idea: Obeying to the essence of human kind
The Idea: I weave every man's destiny
Griffith: ... Does that mean
Griffith: that you're the one who controls my destiny?...
Griffith: that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

The Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past
The Idea: By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
The Idea: and merging blood with blood
The Idea: I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
The Idea: To pave the way for the times you would be born in
The Idea: I maniplulated History
The Idea: and created an appropriate context for you
The Idea: All the encounters you have made so far
The Idea: were a part of the destiny that led you here as well

Griffith: ... The destiny...
Griffith: My...
Griffith: God! What do you want from me?!
The Idea: Be
The Idea: as you will

The Idea: I dwell deep in your heart, I am a part of you
The Idea: You are a part of your kind's consciousness, a part of me
The Idea: Your desire is my desire as well
The Idea: Your actions themselves
The Idea: shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole
The Idea: May they bring pain or salvation to the men

The Idea: Do
The Idea: as you will
The Idea: Chosen One

Griffith: ... If so
Griffith: I want wings

The Idea: Take with you
The Idea: the power of the feelings this inner world is filled with
The Idea: and change this physical field that is your body
The Idea: into the suitable shape for you
.....wow. I really have my work cut out for me. Lets begin (in case you have not guessed, this is the meat and cheese of the post);

First off; Griffith has a meeting (a vision, message, whatever) with god/God/a side of God. And this entity was far from a guy with a beard and long robes. This entity also surrounds itself with the dark aspects of humanity and seems to be promoting, absorbing and/or enhancing it (you gotta see the pics in the manga to know what I am referring to). Flora touches the subject of the abyss, though lightly;
"If you sink too deep, you will become unable to return. Because of this, no living person has ever been this far down...
But beyond that...
Lies the abyss.
And there, perhaps..." (I'll explain 13 in detail later on)
Again, the Idea of Evil surrounds itself with all of mans negative aspects, humanity's "collective consciousness", and seems to be promoting it, absorbing it and/or enhancing it.
The vortex seems to be perpetually expanding, as ALL negative human emotions (as well as people who have any relation to evil spirits, as mentioned by Slann in volume 3);
Femto: You will become one undulation, melting in the sea of the darkside of the soul in order to let fall a drop (of water) into the water.
Slann: That is the fate of those who were related to evil (spirits).
This encompasses more people then you would think; unless a person is born and raised in a cultural or religious vacuum, we all (in the Berserk world sense) will be part of the vortex and here is the reason; everybody from the Vatican (Berserk world) to pagan worshiper involve themselves in the same evil. The Vatican and his followers worship god; The Idea of Evil. The pagans worship evil as in...well evil (Slann appeared to them in one of their pagan dances in the fire). A not so good example is Vargas; he was a doctor, had a family he loved, and risked his life to help Guts as well as step into harms way to protect Puck. Even with is disfigured face, he was still optimistic. Yet, he was seen in the vortex. I think his appearance was not only meant as a form a vindication in punishing the count, but as a preview of the Berserk universe itself AND of it's material; The material world, for either the reason above or some other reason, is therefore inherently evil and flawed. There are a few ways to look at this, though. One can postulate, that what degree is needed to be considered "related to evil"? The Idea of Evil said itself;
The Idea: Its dark side is this swelling ocean
The Idea: I was born from these swells
The Idea: as the ego of this world
The Idea: This world itself is I
The Idea: The darkness
The Idea: that dwells in every human heart
The Idea: The Idea of Evil
This begs the question, if one lives their ENTIRE LIFE without any fear, anger or any other "negative" feelings, are they excused from getting trapped in the vortex? Is being in the vortex even a bad thing?
With all these going for it, The Idea of Evil/God is ever growing, ever changing, and is dependant on the flows of time as we all are.
The Idea of Evil said itself;
The Idea: What you are seeing is a part of me
The Idea: My core
...
The Idea: Its dark side is this swelling ocean
The Idea: I was born from these swells
Negativity and evil thoughts are needed for this God, and indeed, for all reality. They "created" this God/this God was created in evil. More on this later.
(Just as a quick side note of what Chaos Theory is; It is the theory or Idea that all subatomic and nucleonic particles are all united under ONE force, not gravity, but a very powerful force which holds the very essence of protons, electrons and neutrons together. It branches out into every facet of our existence. Infinite correlation, no probability.
In chaos theory, everything is related, everything is with purpose and pattern. Though that is really cutting corners, bear with me)
The Idea of Evil told Griffith;
The Idea: By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
The Idea: and merging blood with blood
The Idea: I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
The Idea: To pave the way for the times you would be born in
The Idea: I maniplulated History
The Idea: and created an appropriate context for you
The Idea: All the encounters you have made so far
The Idea: were a part of the destiny that led you here as well

Griffith: ... The destiny...
Griffith: My...
Griffith: God! What do you want from me?!
The Idea: Be
The Idea: as you will

The Idea: I dwell deep in your heart, I am a part of you
The Idea: You are a part of your kind's consciousness, a part of me
The Idea: Your desire is my desire as well
Griffith is a part of The Idea of Evil, he is a part of this "evil" God.
This was blatant (to me at least) from the wrathful element of God, to beneficient element of Jesus Christ. Griffith (a, if not the beneficient element in the whole Berserk story [for the most part]) and the Idea of Evil(totally full of wrath, if not wrathfull itself. ) have an official syzygy in chapter 83 (interesting to note, "syzygy" means "# (astronomy)/(astrology) A kind of unity, namely an alignment of three celestial bodies (for example, the Idea of Evil, Griffith's "spirit" or "Soul", and the "souls" or suffering of the first Band of the Hawk "passing through him") such that one body is directly between the other two, such as occurs at an eclipse). All this happend during the Eclipse. I get more into this further.

Whew, wasn't as bad as I thought, but I still have some work to do!

(3) The GodHead
As I mentioned, if there's are a Group Called God Hand, then there should be other parts, such as a God Head. The reason I restrict myself to God Head, and not God Foot, God Pelvis or God Shoulders, is because there is such a theological term of God head; also called Binitarianism.
Classically, it is understood as strict monotheism — that is, that God is an absolutely single being; and yet there is a "twoness" in God. At times, this monotheism drifted toward a "twoness" of God: that is, two Beings in one "God family" that is in agreement with itself, composed of the Father and the Son. These two strains of a theology of two, and one God developed alongside one another, and eventually came into direct conflict.
I am at a stall on where to go with this; Can it mean what I mentioned before with Griffith and The Idea of Evil, or of the Idea of Evil with the/another part of God (The true God as mentioned by Boehme/Gnostics)? If it is the latter (Boheme), then what Boheme wrote was just an extention of Binitarianism; a "twoness" of God. In the Gnostic sense, a lesser god acting against the authority of the true God.

(9) What the Vatican in the Berserkverse and his followers (Azan, formally Farnese and a greater part of their Europe) follow a lightly veiled version of Catholosism, but what they worship is just a sliver what what is God in their reality. People like Guts, Flora, Skull Knight, indeed all the featured characters of Berserk know some of the more hidden machinations of the Berserkverse.

(12) Flora, Schierke, Serpico and Farnese all either do magic, or some form of it. Flora is a master, while Schierke is still learning, Serpico puts his trusts on spirits of wind and Farnese is just learning. Doing magic has something to do with a "vision" of the structure of reality, and how to alter it in nontraditional ways.

(13) The Tree of Life with it's plans of reality is strikingly similar to the layout of the Berserkverse, as it is explained by Flora.
Here are the Diagrams (copy and past the links)
The Tree of Life
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif
The Berserkverse
http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/universe/
(Thanks, skullknight.net.)

(14) Miura dedicated a whole chapter to "sparks", and there is also a Boehme qoute relating to it;
“I contemplated man's little spark, what it should be valued before God
alongside of this great work of heaven and earth.”

(15,16) Though I think lightly touched upon with Serpico and Schierke; using "real" names to controll the supernatural. For Serpico, the wind spirits; for Schierke, the water spirit, earth spirit and the Fire Wheel. Maybe more spiritual names will be mentioned and will be plot devices...

(17) Many instances of occult are featured in the Beserkverse, as well golems!

(25) Griffith may be a christlike figure, but is very possible he is the antichrist (or Gutts is the antichrist). My reasoning;
Griffith=Christlike figure, Gutts=Figure who wishes to kill Griffith, Gutts=Anti-Griffith, or, Anti-christ.

Now I am almost done; As Zodd said;
"Let me give you some advice....no, a prediction!"
This is kind of a theory, but maybe not. You be the judge. This is what I think may happen in the coming arcs, what will be unfolded (if Miura does not die before Berserk is finished!)

Griffith will continue on his campaign of conquest of Midland, largely un-opposed. Griffith will succeed in conquering Midland, and may even acquire territories held by Emperor Ganishka. I will go so far as Griffith will try to conquere the entire planet, and uppon the deaths of countless allies and enemies, will succeed. But as Slann said herself, even the God Hand are not all knowing. In chapter 83, The Idea of evil said itself;
The Idea: This is just the surface
The Idea: of the multiple layers of the whole consciousness
The "core" of this God is connected to a double helix type strand that sinks well into the abyss. I will say that the Berserkverse, that world that reality, is just at the end of ONE DNA strand that makes of God, or even the Idea of Evil. The Idea of evil said itself;
Griffith: Why did humans give birth to this will called God?
The Idea: Humans
The Idea: desired reasons

The Idea: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
The Idea: Reasons for life
The Idea: Reasons for death
The Idea: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
The Idea: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
Griffith: And that was
Griffith: God...
The Idea: And I produce those
The Idea: As it is what I've been brought to existence for
The Idea: I control destiny
Where humans created for this Idea of evil to be relevent? Or did the ego of humans creat the Idea of Evil? The chicken, or the egg? But what known, is that the core of the Idea of evil is connected to something much grander.
I think, when Griffiths campaign is finally done, a conflict of interest will arise. A finished qouta, if you will. The original God, the true God will "step" in the story. According to Boheme, God was iterated into a binary-based
matrix, continually increasing in complexity as He collected more and more
information about Himself. God evolves with the passage of time, and when the true God feels it has reached a limit, or feels that specific "core" has reached its limit, God has an identity crisis with that core, whatever core that has reached it's limit. The true God will attempt to absorb the core, the Idea of Evil of the Berserkverse; while the Idea of Evil wishes to keep it's uniqueness, will activley protect itself from being absorbed, thus the true God is against all that is in the Berserkverse, and in a grand irony, the true God is the antagonist, while the Idea of Evil is not the antagonist, but all this time was manipulating time for one thing; Gutts. By having such a horrible path laid out for him, Gutts is the only one capable of repelling the true God; Since he is not an apostle, he has no contact with they other realities all apostles have in their body (read the Demon City arc). Also, by slashing through countless beings who are connected to the other realms, the Dragon Slayer is the only weapon that can cut through spiritual entities.
I don't know if Gutts will succeed, or if anything I wrote here is even relevant. You be the judge, and only time will tell.
Thank you, Miura.
Berserk rocks.
(If you have any questions, or if I missed out on any of my points [and I am sure I did] please mention them. Forgive me, as I am SUPER tired)

I would like to thank Wikipedia, and rotten.com, and Kentaro Miura

edit: fixed the title to be concise as possible -- psi29a

[Kazure]

holy shit, it's the bible.

[Nomimono]

A theory that long deserves a summary, I think. I tried to skip to the end of your post to see what your conclusion was, but I had a hard time making sense of it.

If you don't provide a short, easily readable conclusion that makes your findings clear, I'm afraid very few people will go to the bother of reading through your entire text.

[psi29a]

Creatine:

You probably pored a long ass time into this _first_ post, however after reading the first 2 paragraphs and skipping to the bottom, I failed to see a introduction and a conclusion. Perhaps this is a failing on my part, however I doubt it.

I think we all would love it if you revisited your post above and edited it, run it through a spell checker and all the other nice things you can do to convince people to read your post. Otherwise people will stare blankly at it, and ignore it, or mock you for how long it is.

I would also recommend a introduction, a paragraph that makes an assertion, or basically your 'Theory'. You also want a conclusion at the bottom that sums everything up. This way we can understand what we are about to read, ignore it if we are not interested, or dive right into the evidence you provide in the first place.

If you want us to take you seriously, then take us seriously as well and do a good job at presenting your material. Otherwise you do yourself a disservice and this thread will probably be forgotten.

[Creatine]

Creatine:

You probably pored a long ass time into this _first_ post, however after reading the first 2 paragraphs and skipping to the bottom, I failed to see a introduction and a conclusion. Perhaps this is a failing on my part, however I doubt it.

I think we all would love it if you revisited your post above and edited it, run it through a spell checker and all the other nice things you can do to convince people to read your post. Otherwise people will stare blankly at it, and ignore it, or mock you for how long it is.

I would also recommend a introduction, a paragraph that makes an assertion, or basically your 'Theory'. You also want a conclusion at the bottom that sums everything up. This way we can understand what we are about to read, ignore it if we are not interested, or dive right into the evidence you provide in the first place.

If you want us to take you seriously, then take us seriously as well and do a good job at presenting your material. Otherwise you do yourself a disservice and this thread will probably be forgotten.

This did come to mind as I was writing this, and was the main reason why I did not wish to present it for a very long time.
(As for the spelling errors, I have no excuse. I was hungry and tired, and English is my second language. I did run it through a spell checker, but my grammatical errors were mostly overlooked)

It wasn't the fear of stating what I think is going on in the Berserkverse, but of how I could present it in an organized way. Since I felt this would be impossible (given what I am pointing out are subtle nuances in the manga itself, coupled with esoteric theology) I opted instead to do a format in the vein of the manga itself.

I actually made this post as to the point as I can, but again, I had to mention and point out the nuances and their repercussions. The story of Berserk is so mind-boggling complex and huge, that I think that a long post really is necessary and cannot be avoided.

Again, I thank everyone who has read this post at this point, and will go through and revise the points necessary (as in correct "as" to "has" and other mess ups I caused).

[MrFelony]

I've been wanting to write a berserk essay for a while, but if I were to do it I would have written it in word and when I wasn't tired and hungry . write it in essay format, then more people will read it. I'll probably read it later when I have a lot more free time.

[Brainpiercing]

Ok, I read it all, I didn't skim, except for the multitude of Boehme quotes.

Now, some points, not on the content.

Requests for Introduction are conclusion are seconded, although it's the conclusion that is really sadly missing.

When you re-quote something you've already quoted, just quote the lines that are critical, not the entire passage again.

Now, although you've shown a lot of paralells between theosophism and Berserk, I wouldn't quite put in beyond Miura not have come up with it on his own - using a bit of common metaphysical myth and fairytale.

[Istvan]

I read your post, and I think you have some very interesting ideas, but there are a few problems I have with them (leaving aside the gramatical problems already mentioned by others). First, I think your identifying Griffith with Christ is an incredibly stretch (that isn't really supported) because Griffith often acts in "evil" ways to accomplish his goals and, even more to the point, all of his goals are essentially selfish in nature. I just don't see that there's really room for such a comparison. Many people may view Griffith as such a figure, but that doesn't equate with him actually being such a figure. Simiarly, I think your comparison of Kabbalism to the Berserk world structure is also a stretch, because while there are some superficial similiarities, there are also a huge number of differences that you don't account for.

Where humans created for this Idea of evil to be relevent? Or did the ego of humans creat the Idea of Evil? The chicken, or the egg?

It seemed to me that Idea itself had been pretty clear that it was humans who had created it, which would seem to answer that question, and also put a major spike in your theory of dualism in God for the Berserk world. Which brings me to my last major criticism, from you conclusion. Even granting that everything else you postulate is true, I have a really hard time imagining Guts being the one that Idea created to save itself. Even leaving aside the mechanics (how would he get to to it? How would he kill the oposing "god", especially given the trouble he had with just the emperor? and so on) we're left with the question of motivation. Why would Guts act to protect the Idea of Evil, given that it was responsible for all the suffering he's gone through?

There were some other potential problems I noticed as I was going through, but these were the major ones that leapt out at me. Still, it's clear that you put a lot of work into these theories, and I'd encourage you to keep working on it.

[War Machine]

As everyone has been saying, I strongly advise you to revise your post; you are talking about too many things at once so it is very difficult to keep up on what you're talking about. Also, don't quote the whole extra chapter, just the parts you need when you need them.

I'm having a lot of trouble with the way you start: You give these ideas from many different sources, but you aren't talking about anything on the berserkverse until later on. I think it would be better if you show those ideas once you explain the berserkverse side first. For example: "I think the idea of evil is bad, much like World War II", then you talk about war and give some related ideas (do note that this is only an example and the phrase doesn't make sense). Also, don't say "more on this later on", if you talk about it later we will see it eventually, so there's no need to state it. Also try to finish one thought before starting another, so anyone read can follow the text.

Where humans created for this Idea of evil to be relevent? Or did the ego of humans creat the Idea of Evil? The chicken, or the egg?

It seemed to me that Idea itself had been pretty clear that it was humans who had created it, which would seem to answer that question, and also put a major spike in your theory of dualism in God for the Berserk world.

It seems to me that The Idea Of Evil's name alone implies that he's been created by humans. He also reinstates it several times throughout the chapter. I agree completely with Istvan on that statement (I can't say much on the rest because I couldn't understand it very well, so I'll keep my comments until I fully understand your position).

One last thing, isn't one of the God Hand members called Idea? I think it would be better to keep calling "The Idea Of Evil" like that to avoid confusion (or maybe TIOE for short).

[Facade19]

Beautiful, just absolutley beautiful.
What a piece of thought provoking insight.
Most of what you have stated and worked upon I have come to think of in somewhat the same line (if you wish to see what I mean look in the thread entitled "What has Berserk done to shape your perception of reality.")
The perception of reality and the "common/shared space" of consciousness of the One with All.
Words are failing me right now, but this is exactly what is so profound and eloquent.
I must admit that the sheer amount of effort and thinking employed here are itself worth the effort (pleasure) to read through (I hope you write more, as it was a joy to consume every paragraph).
And your prediction is itself just something unchartered (refering here that I have never encounter such a prediction before).
Gutts being molded by the Idea of Evil to become the "securer/savior" of the Idea of Evil against the True G-d.
In a sense (and this is based on my own interpretation of your thoughts) Griffith is being used by the Idea of Evil to create the forthcoming "securer/savior" (that is Gutts (higher form Gutts) so he can confront the True G-d of the Berserverse.
Please if you have any reading lists regarding the theme you have expressed here (G-d experience Himself through All) share it with me.
PM me, that is if I am not asking too much. This topic has now absolutely caught my attention for further studies.
Once again amazingly done.
Cannot wait to read more from you!!!

Edit: I just read through a couple of replies and here is what I think.
The Idea of Evil said that it was humans that created it.
And G-d created humans so He can experience Himself.
The Idea of Evil then is a Proxy of G-d created by the consciousness of All (subconsciousness) that undermines all individuality and transcends through space and time. The One is able to know Himself through All. And All gave birth to the Idea of Evil. Now the Idea of Evil is still part of the All and the All are a product of the One. Wicked relationship and I should be more thorough, but it is 1:15 am here and I just want to get this out of my head so I can sleep better.

[psi29a]

And G-d created humans so He can experience Himself.

please provide the chapter/page where this is stated or even remotely implied in berserk.

It is critical that you do not mix non-berserk mythology/theology with berserk itself, even if trying to establish some sort of understanding.

Idea of Evil was created by man, that is stated in the manga many times. No where does it state that there is a God other than the Idea of Evil. Idea itself references itself as God.

All the empircal evidence points that:
a) there is no God other than Idea in the Berserk world
b) strickly speaking, because of a) we can infer that there was no God before Idea in the same world.

That to me is very profound, that man created Idea aka God.

[Facade19]

I was working within the OP's theory.
See some members said that humans created the Idea of Evil and based on that his (the OP) theory was flawed.
I merely proposed another scenario in where the OP's argument could be built upon and counterpose to the criticism.
That was all. I should have said that. Sorry about the confusion.

[psi29a]

I was working within the OP's theory.
See some members said that humans created the Idea of Evil and based on that his (the OP) theory was flawed.
I merely proposed another scenario in where the OP's argument could be built upon and counterpose to the criticism.
That was all. I should have said that. Sorry about the confusion.

Thank you for clarifying. I have no desire to lob people's heads off, that would be counter productive. What I'm pointing out is that we have to work within the structure of the story and it's theology and mythology. If we don't, then all of this falls about and we can make up all manner of crap that could have a connection or theory.

A theory is not a hunch, but something that has a hypothesis or set of hypothesis' that can be tested. We can't just implicitly (or explicitly) say something exists and have that be the cornerstone/foundation of a theory. Miura would have had to explicitly said there was a God other than Idea in Berserk.

An example would be that there is a sword called the Dragon Slayer, we can infer that it is a 'Slayer of Dragons'. However, there are no Dragons to slay. There may or may not have been dragons in the Berserk world, it is never stated, hence Dragon Slayer is just really neat name for a big ass sword and does not mean that there where actually Dragons in Berserk.

So that being said, we can't just start making stuff, it isn't our world, it is Miura's world. If he had wanted a God in berserk that wasn't Idea, he would have done so. It is possible that he may in the future though, but it has been almost 20 years (starting from 1989) and there is no mention of any other God than Idea of Evil.

[hbi2k]

I'd tend to agree with the criticism that equating the Idea of Evil with either the Kabbalistic destructive / unifying god or the Gnostic creator-demiurge is problematic because both, by definition, existed before humanity and the universe as we know it, but the Idea is very clear in stating that he/it was created by humans, implying that humans existed before the Idea. There are probably ways in which this could be resolved. The simplest would be to posit that humanity existed in the form of the Maelstrom / Vortex before the universe was created in order to give them a context in which to lead a physical existence, i.e. True God -> Maelstrom -> Idea of Evil -> the physical universe as we know it, in which humanity currently exists in its differentiated, individualistic state (as opposed to the undifferentiated state of the Maelstrom).

However, even if such a theory could be formulated without being self-contradictory, we have little evidence in the manga itself to make such a leap, as others have pointed out.

It also bears noting that the so-called "Lost Chapters" should probably not be taken as canonical at this time. Miura's stated reason for withdrawing the chapters, that they reveal too much too soon, does seem to imply that he intends to revisit some or all of the themes raised in them at some future time. However, nothing says that he can't change his mind, and even if a similar sequence of chapters does show up later on in the manga (perhaps in the form of a flashback), any number of the details of his cosmology may have changed. As such, I think any theory that relies too heavily on the Lost Chapters for its support should be taken with a grain of salt.

[lon3vvolf]

Thanks for giving me something to read, but I'm at work so I'll get to it later. However I read the last part and the whole thing about God coming into play does not sit well with me. Its about Gutts, so having God come in and do stuff... eh...


Wasn't there a 10 post limit before thread creation?

[Istvan]

Wasn't there a 10 post limit before thread creation?

Nah, there used to be a delay of a day or two till you could make a new thread, but psi29a didn't bother to bring it over to the new forums, and he said he wouldn't unless there was a major problem with newbies abusing the forums.

[Eldo]

Wasn't there a 10 post limit before thread creation?

Nah, there used to be a delay of a day or two till you could make a new thread, but psi29a didn't bother to bring it over to the new forums, and he said he wouldn't unless there was a major problem with newbies abusing the forums.

Actually, there was a post limit, but that was only a hack for the previous version of phpBB. Right now it has been removed to give us some mortar.

At least the first post in this thread is nothing like Wyrm's. They give you cancer.

[Istvan]

I'll take your word on that. I think that Wyrm (whose name I've heard a time or two before in this kind of context) was before my time, so I don't really know what he was like.

[psi29a]

I'll take your word on that. I think that Wyrm (whose name I've heard a time or two before in this kind of context) was before my time, so I don't really know what he was like.

Don't take his word for it... behold! PROOF! That was taken near the beginning of the forums when it had a 'brighter' theme Aelous (sp?). The post itself can probably been seen in the depths of the forums, either here in Berserk or in the Interstice.

[Eldo]

Or, you could search for his posts.

I still haven't read the first post though, but it should be said that I did get an Achievement Award for reading Wyrm's.

[Brainpiercing]

The striking characteristic of Wyrm's posts was not only that they were long, but they also didn't make sense at all. This post may be long, but there is some stringent thought behind it - not all correct, but at least it makes enough sense that you can tell WHERE it may be incorrect.

[Starnum]

Heh, notice that he's quoting green text in that picture. God, what a complete waste of my time that was.

[FightClub]

I read the first part, then kept going for like sixteen seconds until you said something about a great piece of literature, then you lost me. Berserk isn't the great Gatsby...bbqsauze.

PS: This was so absurd I read up to that part on the phone.

[lon3vvolf]

I agree with most everyone on their replies that your theory, if you can call it that, is accurate. From what you wrote there isn't a clear purpose to what you wrote. There’s a whole bunch of jargon about religious theories and you do try to tie them into manga.

However there’s a problem with that. Oftentimes people’s beliefs in things, and what they reason, vary. Therefore what you may see as direct correlations between those guys you quoted and Berserk, others may see as totally unrelated occurrences which do not correlate whatsoever.

My other major gripe with this 'theory' is that I can hardly consider it one. As stated before, you did not present a clear theory of "Berserk is explained by this" or something to that extent. I just see you grabbing at strings which if looked form a certain angle can an idea. There’s no clear summary as well, you just branch off into your own future predictions about the manga.

Remember, Berserk isn't an anime about the relationship between God and the world... it’s about a guy with a big sword.


ps. hbi2k.. you sir, are a genius. I always youtube Berserk and have been watching since you made ep 3. Moar Butterfly Zodd!

[Brainpiercing]

Remember, Berserk isn't an anime about the relationship between God and the world... it’s about a guy with a big sword.

While it may be a manga about a guy with a big sword, it IS still much, much more than that. If you choose to limit yourself to the big sword, fine, you are certainly part of the audience that Miura is writing/drawing for, but not the exclusive part.

Creatine posted the theory that Berserk is based on Theosphy. I disagree that it is based on it, but there are some parallels - as there are with other philosophical or theological views. However, whatever influences Miura had, the combination, the outcome, is his. Idea and the Godhand, as evil gods created by mankind (and I doubt there are any more than the godhand) may be similar to the theosophical god-image, but they are not the same. Possibly there are some other gods than Idea, but all the evidence would point to similar, man-invented deities. I do agree that Griffith has both the potential for becoming a messiah, or a devil in disguise, and I foresee that he will be worshipped, for a while, as a saviour by many people in the Berserk world.

But then, he might also just fulfill his life-long dream, and become a very powerful, but emotionless absolute ruler.