Evil Genius

[18:01] psi29a: yar
[18:09] *** Albator has joined #mindwerks.
[18:10] psi29a: greetings
[18:11] Albator: How was the annitversary
[18:11] Albator: Greets
[18:11] psi29a: quite good, lots of beach time... so i'm a geek with a tan
[18:11] Albator: lol
[18:11] psi29a: went through 3 books, working on the 4th
[18:11] Albator: So it was qiiet time, that's good
[18:12] *** Southpaw has joined #mindwerks.
[18:13] psi29a: yeah, no laptop... just me the wife the beach, all you can eat seafood, and books
[18:13] psi29a: howdy there SP
[18:13] Southpaw: sup
[18:13] Albator: I'm just going to hang around there, since as you know I'm no good with comps, and not a heavy gamer:shock:
[18:14] psi29a: a few people are going to coming in later this evening, but *shrugs* it was last minute any everything
[18:14] Albator: I just see what you guys will come up with
[18:15] Albator: nothing serious happend here
[18:15] psi29a: well the goal tonight is to see who is onboard and where we stand as a group. I know what I want, but obviously everyone else has their own ideas.
[18:15] psi29a: so, we are either on the bus... or off the bus
[18:15] Southpaw: the short bus?
[18:15] Albator: Oh so no lurking
[18:15] Albator: Ho well
[18:15] psi29a: Mystic's lil bro will be coming on board, SirAileron
[18:16] Albator: Seen him on DP board
[18:16] psi29a: yes, 'short bus' will be our phase one
[18:16] Southpaw: fyi psi I have class at 7 but i will be on after that
[18:16] Southpaw: er 19:00
[18:16] psi29a: cool beans
[18:17] Albator: Mindwerks is attracting everybody and their mothers now
[18:17] psi29a: more minions == more fun
[18:17] Albator: I have yet my have my wife to get some interest
[18:18] Albator: Bloody eclipses is not a good advertisement
[18:18] psi29a: well, it really depends on what interests her.
[18:18] Albator: No kidding
[18:19] *** SirAileron has joined #mindwerks.
[18:19] psi29a: once SA gets here we can start and ad-hoc as people join
[18:19] psi29a: speak of the devil
[18:19] Albator: There he is!!
[18:19] SirAileron: whoo!
[18:19] Albator: The famous
[18:19] Albator: Hi there
[18:20] SirAileron: how's it going?
[18:20] SirAileron: wait, I'm famous? <_<
[18:20] Southpaw: thats the word
[18:20] Albator: Oh yeah, but it's all Femto's fault
[18:20] Albator: Is that thug stopping by?
[18:20] psi29a: right oh, we will try to catch people up as they log in here.
[18:21] Albator: THat's his field after all
[18:21] psi29a: lets start this thing
[18:21] Albator: Should I leave then?
[18:21] psi29a: nah
[18:21] psi29a: more the merrier
[18:21] Albator: Righty
[18:21] SirAileron: one can't have too little input on these sorts of things
[18:22] psi29a: alright, goal #1 Make something that doesn't suck, 2nd job type games are shitty. It has to be fun from 30 minutes to all day.
[18:23] Southpaw: job type?
[18:23] Albator: like wow right
[18:23] SirAileron: so the premise is people build themselves and call themselves what they want
[18:23] psi29a: example: WoW's grinding through things
[18:24] psi29a: actually it would be more like raiding guilds
[18:25] psi29a: where you have to be there every couple of days, or you get kicked out.
[18:25] psi29a: this is in order to be competitive
[18:25] SirAileron: as well as to keep things clean, no doubt.
[18:25] psi29a: it really isn't casual gaming friendly in the endgame
[18:25] SirAileron: but if it's really well done, then it wouldn't matter in the end
[18:26] Albator: So you already have your game concept?
[18:26] psi29a: right oh, we are all here from kinda the same reason.
[18:27] psi29a: I do, but we are getting there alba
[18:27] psi29a: What does everyone want to get out of this?
[18:27] Southpaw: experience
[18:27] psi29a: *nods*
[18:28] SirAileron: as well as something kickass to brag about. >_>
[18:28] Southpaw: does look nice on a resume
[18:28] Southpaw: look i helped make X
[18:28] psi29a: I'm in it for the experience as well, hopefully to turn it into something I incorperate Mindwerks into an LLC for. Obviously, that is a little far fetched at the moment.
[18:29] Southpaw: small steps first
[18:29] psi29a: true enough, I've actually researched and with MW the way it is now, I may want to make LLC asap just to cover my ass due to EG
[18:30] Southpaw: unlimited liabilty is the lose, so that might be a good idea
[18:30] psi29a: what does everyone want in terms of experience? To work on, or gain more knowledge in?
[18:31] Southpaw: umm anything really, I don't even know if i have any useful skills at the moment
[18:31] SirAileron: programming and image creation, as well as learning about how to entertain properly
[18:31] psi29a: FYI, i plan on posting this in a log for future reference
[18:31] Albator: Design, I'm trying to pick up drawing, but I can't do shit with a comp
[18:32] psi29a: *nods*
[18:33] Albator: Knew you would agree
[18:33] psi29a: sorry, I'm writing down in my every knowing notebook
[18:33] psi29a: Well, lets start to what has been accomplished thus far.
[18:34] psi29a: I've created a skeleton web-based application using PHP as my programming language of choice.
[18:34] psi29a: the User Interface is a mixture of HTML, CSS, and Javascript
[18:35] Southpaw: yay, things i know
[18:35] psi29a: our data is warehoused in a mySQL myisam database
[18:36] psi29a: I have the ERD in my notebook and I'll map something in PDF for everyone to look at.
[18:36] psi29a: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERD
[18:37] psi29a: here is an example of an ERD in case anyone wants to know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ER_D ... MMORPG.png
[18:37] Southpaw: ty for link
[18:37] psi29a: it is for a MMORPG
[18:38] psi29a: eventually, I'll take screenshots of what I have now and post 'em as well.
[18:39] psi29a: however, I'll try to describe the front end.
[18:39] psi29a: We are going to take google maps, make the push-pins our 'actors' be able to move them around, for example our player can move around the map
[18:39] psi29a: for the technical demo I'm going to use the City of Waterdeep because I have a huge friggen as map of it.
[18:41] psi29a: this is going to be a fantasy setting (for the time being at least).
[18:41] psi29a: the idea is our main project can be retooled to handle any setting we want.
[18:41] psi29a: the fantasy/sci-fi differences are handled in the view logic
[18:41] psi29a: speaking of view logic, that is part of the V in MVC
[18:42] psi29a: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller
[18:42] psi29a: Model-view-controller (MVC) is a software architecture that separates an application's data model, user interface, and control logic into three distinct components so that modifications to one component can be made with minimal impact to the others.

MVC is often thought of as a software design pattern. However, MVC encompasses more of the architecture of an application than is typical for a design pattern. Hence the term architectural pattern may be useful [1], or perhaps an aggregate design pattern.
[18:43] psi29a: I use MVC as my guideline so that changes and updates are hassle free.
[18:43] psi29a: you change the look of the that effects how the screen looks in Firefox? No problem, doesn't effect any of my business logic.
[18:43] psi29a: it helps keep bugs to a min
[18:44] psi29a: right oh, anyone nodding off?
[18:44] Southpaw: not yet
[18:44] SirAileron: not me. <_<
[18:44] psi29a: any questions so far?
[18:45] Southpaw: no it looks like i got some reading to do though
[18:45] SirAileron: I'll develop some as I work around some I'm sure
[18:45] SirAileron: this is soak-in time for me.
[18:45] psi29a: its all theory, but once you actually look at it, things start making sense rather quickly. I'll give all of you a small and quick application to get you all familiar.
[18:46] psi29a: i call it my 'magic 8-ball' application.
[18:46] Southpaw: excellent
[18:46] psi29a: every refresh of the page will give you a magic 8-ball answer.
[18:47] psi29a: the things i'm telling you about here probably won't be covered in college/uni (sadly enough).
[18:47] psi29a: but you will learn to live by them in the business world, and actually make a lot of sense and help you out.
[18:48] psi29a: While PHP will be our language of choice, we are going to use Fusebox as our framework.
[18:48] psi29a: Fusebox is a way of conceptualizing an application into the metaphore of a Fusebox in your house.
[18:49] psi29a: Each part of the fusebox is called a circuit, in a circuit are fuses. For example: login, logout, authenticate
[18:50] SirAileron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusebox_(programming)
[18:50] SirAileron: >_>
[18:50] psi29a: those 3 are fuses in a circuit we are going to call officer
[18:50] psi29a: thanks SA
[18:50] psi29a: thats the one
[18:51] psi29a: so when someone fills in their username and password and hits submit on a webpage, the form will call something like this: index.php?go=officer.login
[18:52] psi29a: when the click logout, it will call this: index.php?go=officer.logout
[18:52] Southpaw: i think that just made sense
[18:53] psi29a: we following or questions?
[18:53] Southpaw: following
[18:53] SirAileron: makes sense to me.
[18:53] Southpaw: well i have to book got class will be on later
[18:54] psi29a: *nods* there can be many circuits with many fuses. circuits are just logical grouping of fuseactions that revolve around a central theme of sorts.
[18:54] Southpaw: bye
[18:54] *** Southpaw has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[18:54] psi29a: shucks, and I didn't get to the good part Guess I will fill him in later.
[18:54] SirAileron: kind of like the 'robots' theme in java.
[18:55] psi29a: I'm not familiar with that
[18:55] psi29a: explain please
[18:55] SirAileron: robot was the term for a java applet that had actions coded in it
[18:55] psi29a: ah, gotcha
[18:55] SirAileron: it's a simplistic term, >_>;
[18:56] SirAileron: it was in one od the newer java books
[18:56] psi29a: *nods* the MVC works quite well in Fusebox in that we seperate circuits into their Model, View, and Controller compenants.
[18:57] psi29a: Now here is the really important part, FLiP .
[18:58] psi29a: Fusebox Lifecycle Process
[18:58] SirAileron: that's where a fuse is called on, right?
[18:58] SirAileron: rather, it performs a process?
[18:59] SirAileron: (as the name seems to indicate >_>)
[18:59] psi29a: FLiP is a SDLC, software development life cycle.
[18:59] psi29a: meaning, it is a process by which we develop an application
[19:00] psi29a: you don't just start hacking away, you make a plan
[19:00] SirAileron: ah
[19:01] psi29a: how this work is like this: There are prototypers, architects and then there are fuse coders.
[19:01] psi29a: we make a prototype, then we take the prototype and architect it by cutting up the HTML/images/js into their places, create the circuit files and design the flow in the Controller.
[19:02] psi29a: once something has been architected, the fuse coders can come in and actually code the meat.
[19:02] psi29a: the neat thing is that the architect's job is create fusedocs (fuse documentation) that specify the inputs and outputs.
[19:03] psi29a: i put in A and B (2 and 2) and I expect to get to get C (4)
[19:03] psi29a: it describes what file should do in the first person
[19:03] psi29a: it is up to the fusecoder how best to make it do that
[19:04] psi29a: however, sometimes... time is short, and we make paper prototypes (drawing on board or paper), then we try to mimic it as best as possible into an architecture.
[19:05] psi29a: so, we come to our tools.
[19:05] psi29a: I recommend either Eclipse, Zend, or Crimson Editor as a programing IDE of choice.
[19:06] psi29a: if you use linux, install php, mysql, and apache
[19:06] psi29a: if you use windows
[19:07] psi29a: install this: http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html
[19:07] psi29a: it gives php, mysql, and apache (and other tools)
[19:08] psi29a: http://www.apachefriends.org/download.p ... taller.exe
[19:08] psi29a: anyone alive?
[19:09] SirAileron: I am
[19:10] psi29a: cool beans

[19:10] psi29a: cool beans
[19:10] psi29a: albator?
[19:11] SirAileron: (download faster, damn you... >_>)
[19:11] psi29a: so, any confusion or questions?
[19:12] SirAileron: just lots of research material and brain workouts for me.
[19:12] SirAileron: I think I've jsut been inspired. >_>
[19:12] psi29a: heh
[19:12] psi29a: here is the general flow of events
[19:14] *** Albator has signed off IRC (Ping timeout).
[19:14] psi29a: user clicks on something on webpage --> browser fires off a request to index.php?go=officer.login --> the server precesses request and calls the index.php file --> the index.php file calls the up the fusebox application that interprets the particular circuit and fuse being called --> processes the fuseaction(s) --> the server sends back the result (failed or not) to the web-browser
[19:15] psi29a: by server I mean the apache web-server application
[19:16] *** Malvado451 has joined #mindwerks.
[19:16] psi29a: in the processing of the fuseaction, it can do whatever php lets you do from draw shit on to the screen, write to files, open a DB connection and read/update/delete data. etc
[19:16] SirAileron: that sounds pretty clean
[19:16] psi29a: howdy Malv
[19:17] psi29a: so that is a rough and tumble course on our tools.
[19:19] SirAileron: and because they are separate, you can temporarily inhibit acces to one portion of any of the three to do modifications and/or bugfixes with minimal problems
[19:19] psi29a: once you get everyting setup, go ahead and write a test.php file and do the entire hello world! test to make sure everything works
[19:19] psi29a: that is correct
[19:19] psi29a: there is a lot of other things that fusebox handles behind the scenes for you to.
[19:20] *** Eldo has joined #mindwerks.
[19:20] psi29a: but the caveat that php is a interpreted language with a build up and tear down approach.
[19:21] psi29a: there is no 'fusebox' server.... you run request with the expectation hat it will do its job then cleanup afterit'self after it is done processing the request
[19:21] psi29a: howdy eldo
[19:21] Eldo: Hey man.
[19:21] psi29a: welcome to software development crash course
[19:21] Eldo: I was going to release Breaction in your honour, but Mystic suddenly finished on me.
[19:22] psi29a: Eldo, meet SirAileron, mystic's bro.
[19:22] Eldo: vanished, heh.
[19:22] Eldo: Oh right, I knew that.
[19:22] Eldo: Is Mystic busy or something?
[19:22] psi29a: heh, I didn't till a lil while ago
[19:23] SirAileron: I'm here,
[19:23] SirAileron: I went to the can. <_<
[19:23] Eldo: I just woke up and have my internet capped at 64k.
[19:23] psi29a: suck
[19:23] SirAileron: Mystic just got back, so I'm guessing he'll be on soon or something
[19:24] Eldo: Was he busy with uni work or something?
[19:24] SirAileron: He was busy with a woman, although you didn't hear it from me. <_<
[19:25] Eldo: Damn.
[19:25] Eldo: Was it Starlore?
[19:25] SirAileron: *coughyescough*
[19:25] Eldo: arke would be so jealous.
[19:26] SirAileron: He had a thing for her?
[19:26] Eldo: Well, I presume so.
[19:26] *** Sortep has joined #mindwerks.
[19:26] Malvado451: oh snap
[19:26] Eldo: By his utter silence.
[19:26] Eldo: He dignifies his confession with his silence.
[19:26] Malvado451: hey there is a number by my name
[19:27] Eldo: arke, if you're really pissed off that Starlore ran off with any man, do not speak now.
[19:27] Eldo: Told you so.
[19:27] psi29a: right oh
[19:27] SirAileron: XD
[19:27] psi29a: cooking dinner now
[19:28] Eldo: Oh right, how was the holiday?
[19:28] psi29a: so, SA what would you like to go over next?
[19:29] Malvado451: i'm a computer newb. just thought i say that right off the bat.
[19:29] Eldo: I knows nothing.
[19:29] SirAileron: *thinks*
[19:29] Eldo: Where's Albator? Did he leave as I enter or something?
[19:30] Malvado451: i know how to turn it on and download porn. that's about it.
[19:30] Eldo: He's the only French person I speak to.
[19:30] SirAileron: he timed out.
[19:30] *** Starnum has joined #mindwerks.
[19:30] Eldo: Oh.
[19:30] Starnum: Greetings
[19:30] Eldo: Mystic told me you could edit, Aileron.
[19:30] Eldo: How would you like to join EG and help edit?
[19:30] *** newbified has joined #mindwerks.
[19:31] Starnum: Welcome
[19:31] psi29a: back, mmmm.. corndogs
[19:31] psi29a: howdy
[19:31] Eldo: Hey fellas.
[19:31] * Starnum waves.
[19:31] newbified: /sound snd/boing.au
[19:31] newbified: Haven't seen you in WoW in a few days Starnum And even longer for you Psi
[19:31] Eldo: As soon as Femto joins, carnage will ensue.
[19:31] Eldo: The mindless type.
[19:32] Starnum: Yeah, so I read that log, sounds like a lot of stuff that's out of my league.
[19:32] Starnum: Mindless type indeed.
[19:32] psi29a: lets keep the banter oriented towards the dev meeting, if ya wanna chat about other stuffs, take it to another channel please
[19:32] Eldo: I didn't read the log because it's over 25 words or 4 lines of text.
[19:32] Starnum: >.>
[19:33] Eldo: Actually, I'm capped on 64k and the page hasn't finished uploading yet.
[19:33] Malvado451: <(0_0<) so what is the next topic?
[19:33] Eldo: I could only get 4 lines of text on the log.
[19:33] Starnum: So, I'm not sure if there's anything I can do to help, except play testing.
[19:33] SirAileron: for now, until I get back into the coding swing, I suppose I could ask about what I could help out with as far as pixel art,
[19:34] SirAileron: that's freshest on my hands right now.
[19:34] psi29a: ok, well currently I have a big ass map of waterdeep i'm going to hack up as our map
[19:35] psi29a: of course, some prototype artwork would be cool, concept art
[19:35] Eldo: This game is going to be like the warlords thing you had a couple of months back, right?
[19:35] psi29a: Eldo: sorta, please read the log
[19:35] Eldo: I wished I could, it's not loading.
[19:35] Starnum: As you just said.
[19:35] psi29a: i posted it in the forum eldo man
[19:35] Eldo: I'm on an internet speed just a bit faster than 56k.
[19:35] * Starnum pats Eldo on the back.
[19:36] Eldo: Yeah, forums aren't going real fast for me.
[19:36] Starnum: They're lagging a little anyway.
[19:36] psi29a: OK, to catch everyone up here is the deal.
[19:36] psi29a: Forum Page created in 0.116591 seconds using 29 queries
[19:36] psi29a: seems fast to me
[19:36] Starnum: Uh-huh
[19:37] Eldo: Main page is fast, getting into a thread is real slow.
[19:37] Eldo: And I cleaned out my internet cache yesterday, so everything has to load from the beginning.
[19:37] psi29a: going to the log I get:
Page created in 0.096466 seconds using 18 queries
[19:38] psi29a: ah, perhaps that is it then
[19:38] Starnum: It's probably nothing to worry about, so go on.
[19:38] psi29a: right oh, so we need artists and coders
[19:38] psi29a: no beta testors/players yet
[19:38] * Starnum is neither of which.
[19:38] Starnum:
[19:39] Eldo: This is going to be a purely game play orientated and no storyline?
[19:39] psi29a: those with interest in coding or being artisty, those are the people we need at the moment.
[19:39] psi29a: for the time being, purefly game play because it is a technical demo
[19:39] Starnum: I can write, that's about it.
[19:39] psi29a: we create a world later
[19:40] psi29a: i would like to see the players eventually start to create the story themselves... starnum is a talented writer, I'm sure he could bring it to life (not just him, but in conjuction with others as well).
[19:41] Eldo: I guess I'll have advertise it, I guess.
[19:41] Eldo: Not much I can do.
[19:41] psi29a: well, I'm not asking everyone to pitch in at once. I'm trying to gather developers to get the project moving along
[19:42] psi29a: from there, we add people who fill a niche
[19:42] psi29a: we have to start somewhere
[19:42] Malvado451: olioli
[19:42] SirAileron: crab battle!
[19:42] Eldo: What about Killfile and Southpaw?
[19:42] Malvado451: ok so i read the forum topic. i understand the basic idea.
[19:42] Eldo: Do they have a role in this?
[19:42] psi29a: Killfile may be on later, and SP will be back on later.
[19:43] psi29a: as developers yes.
[19:44] psi29a: SA: so far I've come to the conclusion that the first tech demo will have the followings things
[19:44] Starnum: I'll do what I can. I have exstensive background running medieval campaignes. So just let me know when my services are needed. I'll be letting ideas stew until then.
[19:44] psi29a: google maps style interface to the game world
[19:44] psi29a: we use the city (waterdeep) as our initial map
[19:45] psi29a: our players will be like pushpins in the google map, of which they can move around just by clicking and dragging.
[19:45] psi29a: the players can group up, or solo
[19:46] psi29a: they have stats like str, dex, and importantly enough charisma
[19:46] Eldo: Do you think you can have different classes?
[19:46] Eldo: Like, promotion classes and so forth?
[19:46] psi29a: charisma is important because the higher it is, the more henchmen you can have with you
[19:46] psi29a: experience is used to buy things for the player
[19:47] psi29a: so there isnt any 'level' per say
[19:47] SirAileron: I think you build a character to your own specifications, not limited by a set of classes
[19:47] Starnum: so XP is finite, gotcha.
[19:47] Eldo: Why don't you just call it money instead of experience?
[19:47] psi29a: becase money buys tangable objects
[19:47] psi29a: experience lets you assign things that are intangable
[19:47] psi29a: to yourself
[19:48] Starnum: probably because it's used to build physical attributes.
[19:48] psi29a: exactly
[19:48] Starnum: I like using systems like that.
[19:48] Malvado451: but wouldn't a system with open character develop make it harder for the developers?
[19:48] SirAileron: that's only natural,
[19:49] SirAileron: but the balaincing act comes a bit later, I suppose
[19:49] Malvado451: i mean by pve standards
[19:49] Starnum: So is this game going to be mostly text based, like Newage?
[19:49] psi29a: attributes are exponention in that you have say a 5 in str, and it takes 1000 * 6 exp to get your additional point to your str.
[19:49] Malvado451: unless endgame is only pvp
[19:49] *** Shazam has joined #mindwerks.
[19:49] psi29a: actually, endgame moves beyond one on one
[19:50] psi29a: endgame involves fiting over finite resources
[19:50] psi29a: fighting
[19:50] psi29a: such as land
[19:50] *** Eldo has signed off IRC (Ping timeout).
[19:50] psi29a: but back away from that for a moment
[19:50] SirAileron: dial-up death. o_o;
[19:51] Shazam: Such are the woes.
[19:51] psi29a: perhaps you created a group that hangs out in the poor quarter of the map
[19:51] psi29a: your collective charisma in those areas that you would call your home gives you influence in that area
[19:51] psi29a: thosepeople in there are your responsiblity at that point, and you have to manage it as thus
[19:52] psi29a: if you can't keep up, then other people will push you out
[19:52] psi29a: numbers count
[19:52] psi29a: I also want a reputation system of which your actions dictate your social status
[19:53] psi29a: so if you killa bounch of people, you get marked as vile with a bounty on your head
[19:53] SirAileron: and most likely other players would want to kill you.
[19:53] Shazam: You can have that as a status, not as a numerical value.
[19:53] psi29a: thus, we introduce head hunters, a profession (or class if you will) that will have to be-head you to get that bounty
[19:54] Shazam: Bounty hunters, heh, uh, heh, cool.
[19:54] psi29a: yup
[19:54] psi29a: I was a bounty hunter in UO, i hunted down all the karma-challenged
[19:54] Shazam: How does respawning work in this game?
[19:54] * Starnum nods.
[19:55] Shazam: Like, when people die, do they lost some experience, money, items etc?
[19:55] psi29a: well, that is a topic of concern.
[19:55] SirAileron: I know of a game that handles that rather brutally
[19:55] psi29a: i like the idea of death being perminant *grin* like on UO draconis, but most people would stop playing
[19:55] Shazam: I guess you can half money and lose all items or something.
[19:56] SirAileron: or you just lose your equipped items, maybe?
[19:56] Shazam: Yeah, something like that.
[19:57] Shazam: Or you can just make it so that they don't die, and go to gaol or something.
[19:57] psi29a: well, the idea is to have fun... we have to consider that death is a way training people act in a certain way to avoid death as much as possible
[19:57] psi29a: and not do stupid things
[19:57] Shazam: How about you implement an age system for each character.
[19:57] psi29a: and how would that work ?
[19:57] Shazam: And each time they fuck up, they go to gaol for a couple of years.
[19:58] Shazam: And when they reach a preset age, the character they use retires.
[19:58] Starnum: Gaol?
[19:58] Malvado451: prison
[19:58] Shazam: No wait, that won't work.
[19:58] Shazam: Forgot other people are playing as well.
[19:58] psi29a: yeah, it is a persistant state world.
[19:58] psi29a: the goal is that they play for 15~30 min a day
[19:58] psi29a: longer if they want, but not necessary
[19:58] Malvado451: so that means you need quick rewards?
[19:59] Shazam: Don't you want them glued to the screen?
[19:59] SirAileron: We still want to capture the casual audience
[19:59] psi29a: no, i want them to be happy and have fun, to not treat it as a 2nd job
[19:59] psi29a: something to play when not playing company of heroes, or starcraft
[19:59] Shazam: OK, I guess that's cool.
[20:00] psi29a: casual gaming is key
[20:00] psi29a: we can offer hardcore gamers something to, but that will be later on
[20:00] psi29a: not what we are aiming for now
[20:00] psi29a: so, death... what is everyone's opinion on how to treat it?
[20:00] Shazam: I'm not sure how those ideas can be fully implemented in 15-30 minutes of gameplay, that's all.
[20:00] Shazam: But it's a work in progress.
[20:01] SirAileron: I think that your body gets resurrected elsewhere, but without the items you had on you.
[20:01] psi29a: it is at that *grin*, so the 'loot' dissapears or can your body be looted?
[20:01] psi29a: they making muggers even more 'vile' for head-hunters?
[20:02] SirAileron: I think the body should be able to be looted
[20:02] *** Malvado451 has signed off IRC (Ping timeout).
[20:02] psi29a: *nods*
[20:02] Shazam: So the soul leaves the body, and goes to the temple to be resurrected?
[20:02] SirAileron: with that, a man can regain his items with a vengeance
[20:02] psi29a: sounds good to me
[20:03] psi29a: have monks in the temple around the clock praying for the city's souls to remain there to help fight... something
[20:03] psi29a: i sense the beginning of a story
[20:03] SirAileron: heh,
[20:03] Shazam: When we have a background story, we can make up the religion, I guess.
[20:03] SirAileron: 'the world without eternal death'
[20:04] psi29a: like have half the city initial over run with kolbolds near the border and the further back you get bigger & meaners the creatures become.
[20:04] *** Southpaw has joined #mindwerks.
[20:04] psi29a: hey SP
[20:04] Shazam: That works.
[20:04] Southpaw: sup
[20:04] Shazam: Hey, it's Southpaw.
[20:04] psi29a: lemme cut & paste we have covered thus far for you

[20:04] psi29a: lemme cut & paste we have covered thus far for you
[20:04] Southpaw: ty
[20:04] Shazam: Eldo.
[20:04] Southpaw: shazam=?
[20:04] Southpaw: word
[20:04] Shazam: Haven't seen you in, uh, a year?
[20:05] Southpaw: ah Hi
[20:05] psi29a: http://www.evil-genius.us/forums/viewto ... 5122#85122
[20:05] Shazam: Hey man.
[20:05] psi29a: SP, once you catch up... we are currently going over how to treat death in the game
[20:05] Southpaw: very well
[20:05] Starnum: Hiya SP!
[20:06] *** Malvado has joined #mindwerks.
[20:06] psi29a: malvado, I posted a log of what ya missed @ http://www.evil-genius.us/forums/viewto ... 5122#85122
[20:06] Malvado: thankyou
[20:07] psi29a: right so... what do peeps thinks of an initial overun of part of the city with kobolds?
[20:07] psi29a: kinda gets the initial players into the game, spending a little bit of time per day to take back part of the city piece by piece
[20:08] Starnum: sounds fine ot me.
[20:08] SirAileron: it sounds like a good way to demonstrate the capacity of this project, and it provides a good chance for bug testing
[20:08] psi29a: i agree
[20:09] psi29a: all the details (like fog of war, etc) will be considered later we can't make it perfect right of the bat
[20:09] psi29a: but things like that are worth looking into
[20:09] * SirAileron puts the weather idea on the backburner
[20:09] psi29a: I envision different levels of 'zoom' for what the player can see
[20:10] *** Bengal has joined #mindwerks.
[20:10] psi29a: all the way down will be the dugeons, sewers, ruins, one level up will be ground level/city/area view, then one level up be the regional view, then one level up the world... and then who knows
[20:10] psi29a: so far I want to focus on the city view
[20:11] psi29a: while keeping in mind the sewer view
[20:11] Starnum: me greets Bengal warmly.
[20:11] psi29a: we is everyone's opinion on instances? good thing or better when everyone can be there?
[20:11] Shazam: Good thing.
[20:11] Shazam: The dying system has been worked out now.
[20:12] SirAileron: instances work fine for now
[20:12] Shazam: And they lose reputation when they die too, so the consequences are quite dire.
[20:12] psi29a: this i like, reputation is important because it influences your 'area of influence'
[20:12] Southpaw: well waht is persistant and what is instanced?
[20:12] SirAileron: "dude, uncool, you died."
[20:12] Bengal: Instances are really usef ul from a mechanical standpoint. And they can reduce a lot of frustration.
[20:13] SirAileron: "you're like, the hero"
[20:13] psi29a: persistant state world means that everyone is there, if one player kicks a dog... that dog will bite the first person it sees next in the butt
[20:13] * SirAileron likes
[20:13] psi29a: instead of each time you play, the game starts over
[20:13] SirAileron: it's a tactical thing
[20:14] Southpaw: no I meant what are we instancing and what will be persistant
[20:14] psi29a: i don't like games that 'reset'
[20:15] psi29a: i was thinking for those that just want to go off and adventure (because there will always be those), then we create random dungeons
[20:15] Bengal: I've always been a fan of persistant state worlds. I'd like for some areas to be instanced, though, so no one can (on purpose or accidentally) mess something up TOO badly for the guy behind them.
[20:15] psi29a: the neat thing about this is that we can make a sub-game out of this
[20:15] Starnum: reseting is bad, that's why I stopped playing Newage.
[20:15] psi29a: ditto
[20:15] Shazam: I think you should expand the gameplay time to 30 minutes to an hour.
[20:15] Shazam: Instead of 15-30.
[20:15] psi29a: *nods* that of course is still tentative
[20:16] psi29a: btw guys, I'll take what we talk about here and then make up a minutes report of what we covered and decided on.
[20:16] Bengal: You don't want to give too big an advantage to the people who have too much time on their hands, but at the same time you don't want them to have nothing to do while they wait for other folks to catch up...it's tough to balance
[20:16] Shazam: Yeah, minute report sounds good.
[20:17] psi29a: actually you want to reward those that have spent a lot of time by giving them more responsiblities
[20:17] Shazam: I think everyone gets the same amount of time or events they play in each game period.
[20:17] psi29a: so... you have enough influence over a part of the city, how about you administrate that part of town then?
[20:17] psi29a: oh, you suck.. well, we have others that can replace you *grin*.
[20:18] Shazam: Hm, it sounds like too much technical work involved.
[20:18] psi29a: Shazam: don't get worked up over the technical details
[20:18] Shazam: Personally, I think once you have influence in that town, you get to use their resources.
[20:18] psi29a: i've worked on (and still work on) huge projects all the time
[20:18] Southpaw: could areas of town have spillover affects that will influence neghbots?
[20:18] Southpaw: neighbors*
[20:18] psi29a: SP: like what for example?
[20:19] Shazam: PLAGUE!
[20:19] psi29a: hehehe... *evil grin*
[20:19] SirAileron: This just gets better and better. XD
[20:19] Southpaw: well say you ahve someone running a residential are and playing the mobster bit, could he devalue property around him?
[20:19] Malvado: as in your get better deals and kickbacks?
[20:19] Southpaw: palgue is good too
[20:19] psi29a: remember, as people gain levels... we add more content to the game, we don't have to code all of this at once
[20:19] psi29a: we have plunty of time
[20:20] SirAileron: and plenty of freedom
[20:20] psi29a: true nuff
[20:20] psi29a: SP: he could influence th epropery around him
[20:21] psi29a: the entire reputation system works off the karma of the individual plus how well known he/she is, plus his charisma
[20:21] Bengal: I imagine anyone "living" in that area would try to move away if they could, so while he'd get good kickbacks at first, someone mobbing it up in a residential area would soon be without residents
[20:21] psi29a: karma == things you do, reputation == how important the thing you did was, and charisma == your natural ability to influence people
[20:22] Southpaw: only if they can afford to move away perhaps, in such an area they may live there because of a laick of options
[20:22] psi29a: kinda like the real world
[20:22] Southpaw: indeed
[20:23] psi29a: but remember someone can muscle in on your turf, also... if a group of people band together, they can have a collective influence to challenge yours
[20:23] Bengal: it's a balance of what people are willing to put up with vs their options. be a big enough prick and they'd rather live in cardboard boxes somewhere else than in the houses you oversee
[20:23] psi29a: exactly
[20:23] psi29a: and that causes conflict, which means lots of good 'ol fashion guild war events hehehehe
[20:23] Bengal: excellent
[20:23] Southpaw: definately, but you would also attract like minds, people who will do anthing for money or havee need of services from the morally challenged
[20:24] Shazam: Are there going to be economy levels in villages or towns?
[20:24] Shazam: Since we're talking about the same topic anyway.
[20:24] Southpaw: i would hope so
[20:24] psi29a: that is handled naturally as the game move forward and people interact
[20:24] Bengal: now we just need a global reset mechanic that screw everyone over periodically to make sure that nothing grows stagnant should someone get too good at holding their own position...like a Terrasque or something
[20:24] psi29a: we can not arbitrarly set prices
[20:24] Southpaw: war?
[20:25] psi29a: Bengal: that happens naturally as SP said, war.
[20:25] Southpaw: i am pretty sure the palyers will be movers and shakers enough to keep things interesting
[20:25] Southpaw: and I fail at typing
[20:25] psi29a: i agree
[20:25] psi29a: at both *grin*
[20:25] Bengal: It can be hoped, but it's always good to have a backup plan in case they need encouragement.
[20:26] psi29a: Bengal: that is when I introduce Guts and Griffith *grin*
[20:26] Bengal: Gatts and Grifffith certainly qualify as a Terrasque-level force of change.
[20:26] SirAileron: that's a powerful force. <_<;
[20:26] psi29a: anywho, you guys thing we are pie-in-the-sky or is something that you all might be interested in seeing off the ground?
[20:26] Shazam: We can drop references of their influence in the storyline.
[20:27] psi29a: *nods*
[20:27] Shazam: When the player interacts with NPCs.
[20:27] Shazam: Like, in a tavern.
[20:27] Southpaw: i got some rockets somewhere, we can launch this thing
[20:27] Bengal: and we can always have smaller disruptions here and there. If nothing happens in the area a player oversees for too long, Zodd moves in and kicks him out until he gets bored
[20:28] Shazam: And healing items can be stuff like fairy dust/powder.
[20:28] Bengal: or babies. eating babies always makes you feel better
[20:28] Shazam: I think Zodd can be like a 'natural disaster'.
[20:28] Southpaw: definately babiez
[20:29] Bengal: Shazam: Precisely what I meant
[20:29] Shazam: Like natural disasters in Simcity.
[20:29] psi29a: I'm thinking that when a player reaches a certain point, they become demi-gods. What this means is that they are retired and join with the heavens... at which point we can make tangent worlds *grin*
[20:29] psi29a: but that would take years heheh
[20:29] SirAileron: I like that idea.
[20:29] Southpaw: talk about an ego boost
[20:29] Southpaw: i am teh masterer
[20:29] Shazam: They get to use the behelit!
[20:30] Bengal: This, of course, assumes that they can hang on to the behelit long enough to prove that it's theirs and use it.
[20:30] Bengal: Which, of course, means Sacrifices! Yay!
[20:30] psi29a: yeah, but at that point they no longer have a character per say, but they have control over environmental effects and things like the game black & white
[20:30] SirAileron: ooh,
[20:30] SirAileron: you could *be* the behelit. >_>
[20:30] Southpaw: so they don;t completely retire> they still have influence?
[20:31] * SirAileron drops out of character's hand
[20:31] psi29a: at this point, they can eithe retire or join in as an admin or start over with a new character.
[20:31] SirAileron: I didn't want him to go that way. >_>
[20:31] Southpaw: mkay
[20:31] psi29a: but, if you all have suggestions.. i'm all ears
[20:32] psi29a: perhaps they get the option to ascende
[20:32] psi29a: but they do'nt have to
[20:32] Starnum: Well guys, I need to go, but I'll definitely be keeping my eye on this project to see how it develops.
[20:32] SirAileron: then you have to fight for your soul
[20:32] psi29a: kinda like a parting gift to the game so they become part of the world, even though they no longer play.
[20:32] Shazam: See ya Starnum.
[20:32] psi29a: take care starnum
[20:32] Starnum: Later
[20:32] Southpaw: a sort of hall of fame
[20:32] Bengal: You could always kick it up a notch and make them choose a quest, then go fulfill it by doing horribly challenging new things.
[20:33] psi29a: *nods*
[20:33] Starnum: Thanks, keep up the good work guys, ja.
[20:33] *** Starnum has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[20:33] Shazam: You don't have to necessarily reward them, they could just keep on playing and be regular characters.
[20:33] psi29a: well, I think at this point we are ahead of ourselves, because this topic is covering details when the player has spent a long time playing and wants something new to do or they will leave.
[20:34] Bengal: good point
[20:34] psi29a: they are really powerful
[20:34] Malvado: or give them a constant chaotic status for joining but gaining new skills and stat ups.
[20:34] Bengal: what do we still need to cover in the early game?
[20:34] psi29a: in the real world, age would kill them
[20:34] psi29a: so we need a way to balance it because of the 'undying' nature of the world
[20:34] Shazam: But how does the ageing system work?
[20:34] Shazam: Like, a month per day or something?
[20:35] Bengal: that would be a bit extreme
[20:35] psi29a: Shazam: we will get to that next, I want to know how to handle the balance issue of power characters
[20:35] Bengal: kill them off
[20:35] psi29a: ok, how about this.
[20:35] Bengal: unless they find a way to become immortal
[20:35] psi29a: we keep track of everything they do, which ultimately gives them a score.
[20:35] psi29a: once they reach a point, they retire/die
[20:36] psi29a: we keep a hall of fame listing
[20:36] psi29a: of their score through-out their existance
[20:36] psi29a: they encourages rise & fall of powers
[20:36] psi29a: clans, guilds, etc
[20:36] Bengal: another thing to consider
[20:36] Bengal: there's a game called Riddle of Steel, it's a tabletop RPG
[20:37] psi29a: the retiring/dieing could give you the option to play a new character, or perhaps a child of the that character
[20:37] Bengal: one of the mechanics that people like a lot is that your characters are very mortal and they die a lot
[20:37] psi29a: southpaw?
[20:37] Southpaw: i dont like a cap limit on points
[20:37] Bengal: But when you make your next character, you get benefits based on your previous character. possibly more stat points, or you could play one of the uber rare magic users if you had a REALLY high score, that sort of thing
[20:38] SirAileron: the child is an interesting idea
[20:38] Southpaw: if you do that no one can ever beat score xxxx so the top whatever will all be the same
[20:38] psi29a: SP, there comes a time when the character has to die or they Terminator over the entire game.
[20:38] Southpaw: i didnt say don't kill them just don't make it a cap point
[20:38] Shazam: I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.
[20:39] Shazam: I like the child idea.
[20:39] Bengal: It shouldn't be score-based, it should be age-based
[20:39] Southpaw: you could just make it so their is a con to any pro in abilities etc
[20:39] Southpaw: so that any strategy can be beat by an alternative
[20:39] Bengal: THey hit a certain age and they die
[20:39] Southpaw: that too
[20:39] Shazam: Maybe you get some bonuses being a child of the character, like getting a fraction of reputation, retaining some stats, whatever.
[20:39] Bengal: this age has nothing to do with their score, but instead the time they've been played
[20:39] Shazam: Instead of starting off with zero.
[20:40] Bengal: Shazam: didn't I just suggest a similar system?
[20:40] psi29a: Shazam: then over time, people become powerful by nature of feeding off their parent
[20:40] Shazam: Yeah, and I was agreeing with the system.
[20:40] Bengal: I don't think the new character should necessarily be a child of the old
[20:41] Southpaw: well it would be neat, you could get a geneology of the deeds of the family
[20:41] Bengal: it can be an option, but I like the idea of reincarnation and inspiration as well. You are the spirit of this character returned to earth, or their life's story has inspired you to be greater
[20:41] Shazam: When the character retires, they could retire at a specific village. Become a blacksmith or governor or whatever based on their stats.
[20:41] Bengal: OR you could be their child. You need more options because not everyone will want to be the same family always
[20:42] psi29a: you know, you could encourage females to play as well, your objective to secure that both of you continue playing in the next life is to concieve children
[20:42] Bengal: I really don't like that idea at all, Psi
[20:42] Shazam: Maybe you can have the option to marry the female player?
[20:42] Shazam: Is that what you're saying?
[20:42] psi29a: you could marry whoever you like
[20:42] psi29a: but t doesn't let you have children
[20:43] Shazam: Because castrated at war?
[20:43] Southpaw: you children could be npcs that you can send out to govern things or fight in you armies like little generals and you are the patriarch lookinf over your clan
[20:43] Bengal: nope, because the Godhand will eat all babies born to two players.
[20:43] Southpaw: children are tasty like veal
[20:43] Bengal: ALL of tem
[20:44] psi29a: heh, that can be a possible thing,but we need to address the power inequalities of those who have played a lot.
[20:44] psi29a: or more importantly, does it matter?
[20:44] Shazam: You can have that reincarnation idea.
[20:45] Bengal: besides, by the time a player's character dies of old age, their new character would be at least two generations removed, not just one. You'd be making a grandkid instead of the next generation
[20:45] Southpaw: it matters in that they shouldnt be invincible
[20:45] Shazam: Doesn't necessarily have to be a child of the hero.
[20:45] Southpaw: the power palyers should be able to be brought low
[20:45] Bengal: I think you're assuming too much advantage to being a power player.
[20:45] psi29a: I really want to might of the many out way the might of one person.
[20:46] psi29a: terminator could kick ass of any number of people and I think that is wrong, the balance was all off
[20:46] Shazam: You could make the stats static.
[20:46] Southpaw: the game was all off
[20:46] Shazam: The only thing that changes are influence and reputation and stuff.
[20:46] Southpaw: there was no penalties for loseing at all
[20:46] psi29a: like roll stats, and those are it?
[20:46] Shazam: That way, each characters will have equal level of stats.
[20:46] Bengal: You don't have to make the stats static, you just have to mitigate advancement so that it exists, but isn't unbalancing
[20:47] psi29a: my mitigation was that increasing your stats becomes increasinly exponential
[20:47] Bengal: nobody wants to play a game without advancement, and advancement of statistics over time makes too much sense to forbid it.
[20:47] Shazam: The only advantage an experienced player gets is skills, army, reputation, etc.
[20:47] Southpaw: we shouldnt have the termie problem because our should be built so that characters can be defeated because they will have areas tha they are not proficient at
[20:47] Bengal: Exponential cost of increasing stats is definitely a good way to go
[20:47] Shazam: Bengal has a point though.
[20:48] Southpaw: exponetial upkeep for armies
[20:48] Shazam: You'll have to be playing for years before you reach demi god status.
[20:48] Bengal: I suppose before we worry too much about advancement, we need to decide what mechanical parts make up a character in his/her entirety
[20:48] psi29a: a body builders in real life can work work work all he/she wants, but over time his stats attrophy
[20:48] psi29a: anyone like attrophing stats over time of non-use ?
[20:49] Southpaw: nad the bodybuilder can only reach a certain point before he is only maintaning not increasing dtr
[20:49] Shazam: Hm, I'm not too liking it.
[20:49] Southpaw: str*
[20:49] Bengal: Atrophy shouldn't be a problem until you hit old age, call it the last five months before your character dies.
[20:49] Southpaw: attrophy on skills but not feeling it too much on stats
[20:49] psi29a: str for example, they hit a curve where any more str is unrealistic and they have to train just to keep level.
[20:50] Southpaw: that would be fine
[20:50] Shazam: I like the exponential cost of stats.
[20:50] Bengal: That's not actually true. The human body will forever increase muscular strength, as long as you keep increasing the challenge.
[20:50] Bengal: Body builders who hit a plateu aren't working hard enough
[20:50] Southpaw: at a point your body will break under the load and not increase
[20:51] SirAileron: Guts? >_>
[20:51] psi29a: ah, notted, but that challenge will become similiar to exponential challenge (experience for example)
[20:51] Shazam: But gutz is a half elf!!11
[20:51] psi29a: those that want str can put a lot of exp into str, but they are doing at cost to their other stats
[20:51] Southpaw: exponential is the win i think should keep a nice cap on stuff
[20:52] psi29a: the cost being that it isn't increasing at all
[20:52] Bengal: Exponentially harder it becomes. Impossible it doesn't. and your body doesn't start breaking unless, like most people, you don't take care of it. Most bodybuilders don't take enough care of their joints, and as such it eventually hurts too much to work harder, but that's their own negligence to blame, not biology
[20:52] Shazam: And the character has the choice to either upgrade stats, or upgrade skills.
[20:52] Shazam: Makes them a bit indecisive.
[20:53] psi29a: skills is another topic we should discuss, should we have a set range of skills of which range from 0 to 100% effeciency
[20:53] psi29a: the skills you pick is basically your class/profession
[20:53] Shazam: I think there should be basic ones for each classes, like increase 10% of money gained from battle or something.
[20:53] Bengal: Skills should upgrade with exp AND with use, as should stats to a degree. each time you do something that uses a skill or a stat it should earn a minute portion of its own "experience" extremely minute, though, as time goes on
[20:53] psi29a: you have a set number of skills you can pick or perhaps a set number of effecieny points you can assign
[20:54] Southpaw: limit on number of skills you can choose? maybe allow more skills if you pick a similar subset and don't break out of it
[20:54] Bengal: No, you should have a topless skill system, let anyone take any skill, but classes buy their class skills cheaper than cross-class skills
[20:54] psi29a: my example harkens back to UO. there are no 'classes' or 'perfessions' just skills. You have a skill point cap, the number of points is finite.
[20:55] Bengal: and start out with base-proficiency levels
[20:55] psi29a: you can cross train if you want to, but you can never reach 100% effeciency
[20:55] Southpaw: meh I vote classless system
[20:55] Shazam: Classless system for the win.
[20:55] SirAileron: Very win
[20:55] psi29a: ah, so you guys like that
[20:55] Shazam: Bengal is really rolling with ideas here.
[20:56] psi29a: I'm for non-class based system, where you pick your own skills
[20:56] Southpaw: so say you pick a skill set and can max those and then can freely cross train they just cap somewhere under 100
[20:56] psi29a: and how much you want in that skill.
[20:56] Bengal: Classless systems are all well and good, but you need definite roles to enhance a player's feeling of accomplishment. People don't normally feel like they've done as much in a classless system as in a class-based system, even after accomplishing identical amounts
[20:57] Southpaw: you will have a role, you will determine it your self as you pick skills set atts
[20:57] psi29a: if you want to cast spells and use a sword, you can, but you have to train them up.
[20:57] psi29a: but you can only be 100% effecient
[20:57] Shazam: Maybe you start off with the skills based on the class, instead of none.
[20:57] Bengal: if you're REALLY hung up on a classless system, though, you should let people select "natural" skills, which start with base proficiency and upgrade faster, and still have a capless skill system
[20:57] psi29a: over time your skills atrophy, but you can spend experience to keep them up
[20:57] Shazam: Like mages start with +10% for magical damage or soemthing.
[20:57] psi29a: that isnot exponential
[20:58] Southpaw: your skills should have a base determined off of your stats and your main skill set will get a bonus?
[20:58] psi29a: I see the 'capless' system because I see a cap as being uncessary.
[20:58] Shazam: Have the same exponential cost, but the character starts off with base skills.
[20:59] Shazam: Instead of no skills.
[20:59] Bengal: especially basing your setting on Berserk, you should notice that there's no such thing as 100% efficiency at anything. instead, there's a bonus that can be potentially infinite, if you work hard enough
[20:59] psi29a: i don't think we should have base skills, you have an entire range of skills and you spend you rinitial points on what you want.
[20:59] psi29a: you later spend experience to 'upgrade' those states, with possible 100% effeciency
[20:59] psi29a: however, over time... the skill you use less of start to fade
[20:59] psi29a: not a lot
[20:59] Bengal: I think the option of class "packages" should exist, then.
[21:00] psi29a: by packages you mean, 'i want to play a fighter, what do you recommend?'
[21:00] Bengal: cherry-pick your skills, or buy the package that training to be a specific thing would get you, possibly at a slight discount.
[21:01] psi29a: that is something to consider, gang ?
[21:01] Southpaw: i dont like capping at a 100, should be capless, and I think that you should have a base skill level determined on your stats and if the skill can be used untrained, then spend point on what you want to increase
[21:01] Bengal: It's much easier to train to be a fighter than to train to wield a sword, cast spells, and pick pockets
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[21:01] Southpaw: so make a bonus for being specialized

[21:01] Southpaw: so make a bonus for being specialized
[21:02] Southpaw: its easier to train to be really good at this one role, than to be ok at x, x, and x
[21:02] Shazam: Yeah, skills cost cheaper to upgrade.
[21:02] Bengal: right, say you select five skills, or take a package and be given six predetermined skills. you can still train any skill at all, but those first five you select, or the first six you're given, will start slightly higher and advance slightly easier
[21:02] psi29a: Ranoro8289: a lot has been discussed: http://www.evil-genius.us/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85123 logged here
[21:02] Shazam: Like a certain percentage.
[21:03] Ranoro8289: ok thanks
[21:03] Bengal: no percentages!
[21:03] psi29a: but you can only be 100% effecient in any skill anyway
[21:03] psi29a:
[21:03] Southpaw: yeah should def do packages, no bouns for those who free pick though, the choices are reward enough, and a package palyer should be fairly limited in being able to breanch out
[21:04] Bengal: all skills start at zero, the skills you choose to be proficient with, or that come in the package you choose, start at +10 or so. It's much easier to get to a +15 or a +45 or a +236 in a skill you've selected than in a cross-trained skill
[21:04] Southpaw: also have a unversial set of skills anyone can gain access to
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[21:05] Shazam: I haven't played much D&D type of games to understand how those works.
[21:05] psi29a: so the consensus is that skills should be treated sorta like attributes in that they are uncapped however are exponential in gaining more points
[21:05] Bengal: everyone should have access to all skills
[21:05] Southpaw: agree at Psi
[21:05] Bengal: psu: absolutely
[21:05] Bengal: psi even
[21:05] Shazam: Yeah.
[21:05] Shazam: So they have a choice between upgrading stats, or skills.
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[21:05] *** Sortep has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[21:06] Southpaw: are we going to have stats affect skills?
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[21:06] psi29a: how about this though, the exponential curve is the same for all skills, so if you train one up really high, to train up another skill, it will cost you the same amount it chost you to train that one main skillup
[21:06] *** Sortep has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[21:06] psi29a: wb Southpaw
[21:06] psi29a: sortep
[21:06] Bengal: I still say that everything should upgrade on its own through use as well as with EXP. where it costs 1000 xp to upgrade a stat or a skill, each time that skill is calculated for use, you should get 1/100th of an experience point
[21:06] psi29a: blast
[21:06] Shazam: Nah, I think it should be seperate.
[21:06] SirAileron: Yeah, I agree to it.
[21:06] SirAileron: @_@
[21:07] SirAileron: damn, I didn't scroll down. <_<
[21:07] psi29a: hehehe
[21:07] SirAileron: the capless skills make snese
[21:07] Shazam: Use 'drunk' as an excuse, works all the time.
[21:07] Bengal: definitely the rate to which you raise one skill shouldn't affect any others
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[21:07] Sortep: still openings in teh game?
[21:07] Shazam: Skills and stats should be linked.
[21:08] Shazam: So yeah.
[21:08] Bengal: linked in what way?
[21:08] Shazam: I mean, shouldn't.
[21:08] Shazam: Heh, I'm drunk.
[21:08] Bengal: oh
[21:08] Southpaw: how should we link them? high appropriate stat increases skill or makes it cheaper to upgrade?
[21:08] Southpaw: or other i didnt think of
[21:09] Bengal: skills and stats would technically be linked in my suggestion, since every skill check requires checking a stat as well, so both would recieve the bonush 1/100th of an experience point
[21:09] Shazam: I think the cheaper to upgrade should be left for class.
[21:09] Southpaw: you mean the package deal?
[21:09] Shazam: Yeah, cheaper costs according to package of class.
[21:09] psi29a: well... package and class are kinda the same
[21:10] Shazam: Not specifically linked to stats that way.
[21:10] Bengal: right, but that was the point of the packages in the first place
[21:10] Southpaw: cool so the stats should increase effectiveness
[21:10] Shazam: That's what I thought.
[21:10] Southpaw: well you could have an incresed cost reduction with stats and package
[21:10] Bengal: I guess you COULD let someone select a proficient attribute in addition to their proficient skills, and classes would have a proficient attribute as well
[21:10] Sortep: hola mr psi... any music/sound engineering openings?
[21:10] psi29a: of course
[21:11] Shazam: We need MIDIs!
[21:11] psi29a: matter of fact, I planned on a radio station to be DJed while we play
[21:11] Sortep: shaz... i gots dat all day
[21:11] SirAileron: yay, moozek!
[21:11] Sortep: and... ui just got the new motif sounds for my mpc
[21:11] Sortep: so fook midi
[21:11] psi29a: haha
[21:11] Sortep: str8 up audio cheif
[21:12] Sortep: mackie boards.... neumann microphones... live instruments etc
[21:12] psi29a: I wanted to setup a shoutcast or icecast server, and have a flash applet that can be turn on (default is off) while playing in the page. Thanks to the wonders of AJAX you don't have to change pages, so it keeps playing in the background.
[21:12] Sortep: singer etc if neccessary
[21:12] psi29a: the neat thing about that, is that once in awhile the DJ can hope on and announce news while playing
[21:12] Bengal: but since it would be unbalanced to let anyone have more than one proficient skill, we let the packages have a slight bonus by giving them an extra rank in the associated stat, since the benefit of not taking a package is versatility. So you could take one proficient stat that starts at a +5 and five proficient skills that start at a +10, or you could be, for instance, a soldier, and start with strenght proficient and at a +6 and 6 sk
[21:13] Southpaw: a live dj would definately be awesome
[21:13] psi29a: SP: yes, it would motivate and frenzy the players
[21:13] Shazam: What I don't get is, what's the point of choosing a class if there's no bonuses accompanied with them?
[21:13] Sortep: well mr. psi... i can hook up a symphonic track for those who choose thus...
[21:13] Bengal: shazam: see above
[21:13] psi29a: 'oh know, the dual between drunkazn and newbified is getting bad, its turn 53 and drunkazn just got fireballed'
[21:14] psi29a: that kinda thing
[21:14] Southpaw: the bouns of package is faster skill growth in a specific field
[21:14] Sortep: amd if you want.. i can sneak a couple of unreleased tracks from a couple of the slightly bigger names i'm working with
[21:14] psi29a: sweet!
[21:14] Sortep: i'm also gonna completlely redo the theme that had sent months ago
[21:15] Sortep: got something a little more berserk like in mind
[21:15] Sortep: ;oD
[21:15] Bengal: soldier skills have to do exclusively with soldiering, but you get six soldier related skills to be proficient, and thus advance faster at, wheras a non-class character only gets five skills to be proficient at, and thus advance faster at
[21:15] psi29a: i figured it necessarly doesn't have to be fantasy music, but peeps in the game can play their music... an dof course, people in the game vote on who they want as DJs
[21:15] psi29a: because obviously, some people's music just sucks
[21:15] psi29a: erm, music choices rather
[21:15] Sortep: see: lil john
[21:15] Sortep: ;oD
[21:15] Ranoro8289: lol
[21:16] Shazam: We could just lift the soundtrack from Berserk and play it over and over again.
[21:16] Sortep: although i have a strange admiration for someone who can make millions from the phrase "skeet skeet skeet"
[21:16] psi29a: you see, that is why I don't like class / package based systems
[21:16] Bengal: why is that?
[21:16] psi29a: you put bonuses in and things just go all out of hand really quickly and have ballance issues
[21:16] Sortep: wait wat did someone say it doesnt have to be symphonic?
[21:16] psi29a: just keep everyone the same and choose the skills they want
[21:16] Southpaw: no bonuses cheaper progression only
[21:16] Southpaw: limited other skills
[21:16] Southpaw: and we call them packages
[21:16] Shazam: So, no classes, no packages, whatsoever?
[21:17] psi29a: by choosing what skills to assign points/experience you create your character
[21:17] Shazam: Hence, no bonuses on progression of skills?
[21:17] psi29a: don't arbitrarly give people bonsus
[21:17] Bengal: The point of the class versus the non-class is you're specialized. a soldier can't swing a sword and cast magic as well as a nonclass character could. Versatility balances everything out for the nonclass character
[21:17] psi29a: and some people want to play a balanced character
[21:17] psi29a: why not let them
[21:18] Bengal: but we ARE letting them
[21:18] Bengal: class packages are optional
[21:18] psi29a: well, how about this option...
[21:18] psi29a: dependig on the ratio of points to certain skills, that determined your 'class' so youget special bonuses
[21:19] psi29a: you get no bonuses being balanced
[21:19] Bengal: psi: that can work really well too
[21:19] Bengal: it's an option that I didn't want to suggest because it was more complicated
[21:19] psi29a: however, if you spend a lot more in archery, you get can gain access to better arcery techniques or equipment
[21:19] psi29a: no worries on technicalities
[21:20] psi29a: using a ratio comparison of skills allows us to hand out incentives for people to specialize
[21:20] Bengal: indeed
[21:20] psi29a: they could get titles even
[21:20] psi29a: 'grand master wrestler'
[21:20] Shazam: That's what I was thining.
[21:21] Shazam: Titles.
[21:21] Bengal: it's definitely something to work toward
[21:21] Bengal: and further, we don't have to tell anyone what ratios equate to what titles or classes.
[21:21] Shazam: I mean tities.
[21:21] Shazam: I actually meant titles.
[21:21] psi29a: heh
[21:21] psi29a: Southpaw?
[21:21] Ranoro8289: so everyone would start off with basic items and abilities and depending on what they favor and use, they develop bonuses and classes?
[21:22] Bengal: I still say that they should be able to select proficient skills and a proficient stat to upgrade more cheaply
[21:22] Southpaw: bonuses and titles and capability to used advanced itamz
[21:22] psi29a: they wouldn't be hard-coded classes no, but you would be recoginized for your skillset of choice and gain access to things in that involve that skill.
[21:22] psi29a: *nods* SP, right on
[21:23] Sortep: on a totally non important music end... what genres of music should be covered?
[21:23] Southpaw: its kinda like a classless class system
[21:24] psi29a: Bengal: not sure I want to make a stat or attribute easier to upgrade, that kinda aggrivates the entire power problem we talk about earlier
[21:24] psi29a: its a classless system that emphasises skill choice
[21:24] Bengal: it's an issue of to what degree is it easier to upgrade? 10%? 5%? 25?
[21:24] psi29a: if you have a high baking skill over that of swordplay, you are consider a baker by professional I guess
[21:25] Bengal: 2% rather
[21:25] psi29a: how 'bout this, skills and professionals
[21:25] psi29a: if you a professional baker, then your baking skill goes up that 2% faster then
[21:25] psi29a: we can allow you to tick what skill you want to be a professional in
[21:26] Bengal: So if I were a professional Sodomite... *ponders*
[21:26] psi29a: or perhaps you get 3 ticks
[21:26] Southpaw: or tags maybe
[21:26] Bengal: I still suggest that you have plenty of skills, and let five be selectable
[21:26] psi29a: all the other non-ticked skills are consider your ameature skillsets
[21:26] psi29a: Bengal: I agree
[21:26] psi29a: yeah, tags work
[21:27] Bengal: that's what I've been suggesting forever. O.o
[21:27] Bengal: but I think we should let players tag one stat as well
[21:28] Southpaw: no way
[21:28] Bengal: a 2% discount is NOT going to be unbalancing
[21:28] psi29a: Bengal: you deal with this a lot in meetings, words have differening meanings (look in the dictionary for anti-semite and you will see 4 definitions)
[21:28] psi29a: we have beat around the bushfor all of us to be on the same page
[21:29] Bengal: the idea is that while the benefit is tiny, it's enough to be attractive to the player, and make them more satisfied without unbalancing the game
[21:29] Shazam: There should be a drinking option.
[21:29] psi29a: well gang, it is 30 min till 10PM and I think we kicked ass tonight
[21:29] Shazam: When you go to bars and drink.
[21:29] Southpaw: but at high end that 2% could be unbalancing
[21:29] Bengal: not at all, because it's still exponential
[21:29] psi29a: i say we wind things down and if youguys come up with ideads, post 'em in the thread in OTW
[21:30] psi29a: ideas even
[21:30] Bengal: you might get an extra two or three points higher than someone else, so you're looking at having a stat of 102 instead of 100
[21:30] Bengal: that's not unbalancing
[21:30] Shazam: I guess ideas come better as lists.
[21:30] psi29a: I'll write up something that covers what we talked about tonight
[21:31] Bengal: cool
[21:31] psi29a: those of you who can code, i suggest you look over the first part of the logged chat
[21:31] psi29a: we are using PHP, HTML, and Javascript
[21:31] Bengal: that leaves me out
[21:31] psi29a: backend is linux, apache, and mysql
[21:32] Sortep: sprite based?
[21:32] psi29a: I'll post a sample application for you all to get up and running and if you questions, ask them inthe forum or IM me and we can get this all worked up
[21:32] psi29a: sprite/tile based, yes
[21:32] psi29a: at least for the tech demo
[21:32] SirAileron: How big? <.<
[21:32] Sortep: will the sprites change as weapons armor etc aquired?
[21:32] SirAileron: (or small)
[21:32] Sortep: or will it be minimal
[21:32] SirAileron: I DEMAND CHANGE
[21:33] SirAileron: <.<
[21:33] psi29a: small enough to fit in a browser windows at 800x600 and big enough to be able tell what it is
[21:33] Southpaw: probly not going oto have change in tech demo
[21:33] psi29a: those are all details that we will hammer out as we move along, but I wouldloe to have customizable characters
[21:33] Sortep: for the dj amd audio end... what platforms and formats are to be use?
[21:34] * SirAileron begins the thought process
[21:34] Sortep: you'd have to use dilbert cheif
[21:34] psi29a: you get a new sword, and you see that it is a new sword in your profile
[21:34] psi29a: Sortep, it will be 64kbit/sec mono mp3 stream
[21:34] Sortep: oh ok thats cake
[21:35] Sortep: and for the streaming live aspect?
[21:35] Shazam: Are we making sprites from scratch, or pulling them from games?
[21:35] Sortep: or will it be prerecorded stuff?
[21:35] psi29a: the DJ will use itunes,winamp, whatever to stream to my server, then my server multi-casts it to the listeners
[21:35] Shazam: Because I want a sprite from Arc the Lad.
[21:35] psi29a: it is whatever you stuff over your itunes
[21:35] Sortep: i've never used i-tunes in my life
[21:35] psi29a: for time being we are using premade stuff, if this project takes off we need to make from scratch to avoid copyright violation
[21:36] psi29a: Sortep, well whatever you use to listen to music that can also push the stream up to the icecast server
[21:36] Sortep: this i didn't know
[21:36] Sortep: xmms can do that?
[21:36] psi29a: for example, for awhile I DJed a radio station using xmms, I would play music, and in the end of tracks I would banter a bit over the mic then play th enext song
[21:37] SirAileron: Eldo, good taste man.
[21:37] Sortep: and it can stream it up to you?
[21:37] psi29a: think of music as a stream, you mix it all live
[21:37] Sortep: so i could actually mix straight into the board
[21:37] Sortep: and tables etc?
[21:37] psi29a: yeah, you stream your music to my icecast server, and it re-broadcasts it out to the listeners.
[21:38] Sortep: ah
[21:38] psi29a: it saves you bandwidth if DJing from home
[21:38] Shazam: Shit I haven't played Arc the Lad in years. Might start again later. Only finished the first one.
[21:38] Sortep: sorry... it's been an interesting long day
[21:38] Sortep: so the brain is abit broken and lawsuit filled
[21:38] psi29a: yeah, the end result of what ever you did, goes to the upload stream
[21:38] psi29a: its an output plugin you install into xmms, winamp
[21:39] Sortep: can it be used in other software as well?
[21:39] psi29a: read up on http://www.shoutcast.com
[21:39] psi29a: you have to find the plugins for 'em
[21:39] Sortep: or would i just want to record the analog mix then stream?
[21:40] psi29a: you have to find a way to upload your stream, i happen to use a plugin for XMMS
[21:40] psi29a: lots of software out there
[21:40] psi29a: anywho, you all still here?
[21:40] psi29a: you like where this is going?
[21:40] psi29a: game wise.. etc ?
[21:41] Sortep: i got it.. my confusion was whether it could be true live or slightly live
[21:41] * Sortep goes back to music corner
[21:41] Southpaw: yeah i am here
[21:41] Southpaw: was catching up on the fusebox part of the log
[21:42] SirAileron: I'm here,
[21:42] SirAileron: a bit full, but here nonetheless
[21:43] psi29a: hehe, cool beans
[21:43] psi29a: I'll grab together a small fusebox application for you guys tomorrow and post it.
[21:43] Southpaw: cool
[21:43] SirAileron: I'll get to re-familiarizing myself with... everything. @_@
[21:43] psi29a: if you feel that you got it under control and you know you want to help, then we create accounts and give you all SVN access
[21:44] psi29a: SVN is our code repository
[21:44] Southpaw: ah
[21:44] SirAileron: rock on.
[21:44] Southpaw: have to see if i can hack php first, i got a handle on html and javascript
[21:44] Shazam: Can you compile the ideas discussed here that you like, psi?
[21:44] psi29a: you check out the codebase, make changes, once you believe it is 'stable' code you commit back and we check out as well which updates our code with what changes you made
[21:45] Shazam: In point form?
[21:45] psi29a: Shazam: either tonight or tomorrow I will draft up a document which what we went over in minute format. It will also cover if we resolved the issue or if we want to revisit later
[21:46] psi29a: so, what do you guys think of a monthly or weekly meeting like the one we had tonight?
[21:46] Southpaw: sounds good
[21:46] Shazam: Sounds good.
[21:46] *** Sortep has left #mindwerks.
[21:46] Shazam: It'll be better if it was in the weekends though.
[21:46] psi29a: make a thread in OTW where we post our concerns, I make an agenda for us to discuss, we start the dev meeting, go over issues and if there is time we bring up things not in the agenda.
[21:47] psi29a: if people can't make it, we post a copy of the logs
[21:47] Shazam: That thread should be a sticky, then.
[21:47] psi29a: *nods*
[21:47] psi29a: any other input?
[21:48] Southpaw: not at the moment
[21:48] psi29a: Southpaw, you run windows yes?
[21:48] Southpaw: ja
[21:48] Southpaw: i need linux?
[21:48] psi29a: nah
[21:48] psi29a: http://www.apachefriends.org/download.p ... taller.exe
[21:48] psi29a: there ya go, apache, mysql, and php
[21:48] psi29a: for windows
[21:48] Southpaw: tyvm
[21:48] psi29a: nfpm
[21:48] psi29a: let ya figure that one out
[21:49] Southpaw: screw that
[21:49] Southpaw: i will just assume it is ridicule in an acronym
[21:49] psi29a: hah, also I would suggest an IDE
[21:49] psi29a: No Fucking Problem Man
[21:49] Southpaw: heh
[21:49] Southpaw: waht is this IDE you speak of
[21:49] *** Bengal has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[21:50] psi29a: the dev IDE will aid you in coding by indenting code, color coding stuff, and making things easier to maintain
[21:50] psi29a: i would suggest either Zend, Eclipse, or Crimson Editor
[21:50] Southpaw: that sounds like sauce
[21:50] psi29a: Eclipse and Crimson Editor are free
[21:50] psi29a: Crimson Editor is like a fucking juiced up notepat with tons of helpful features
[21:51] psi29a: Eclipse is a full fledge source code development platform made out of java
[21:51] psi29a: its massive
[21:51] psi29a: Zend costs money, but is very good, we use it at work.
[21:51] Southpaw: yeah well i am going with free atm