I'm probably going to stop buying Berserk after vol. 13.

Post by **Femto** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:55 am

I'm sorry, but the difference in quality between the first 13 volumes and the rest is just abysmal.

The only thing that was really great in post-13 volumes is the Griffith/Guts encounter in the Grave of the Hawks (I forgot if that's the actual name) and the subsequent fight with Zodd.

Everything else has been mostly unfocused and uninteresting.

I download the series out of habit really because it's just not what it used to be.

Also, I'm running out of shelf space.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:26 am

I'm glad you felt like sharing that with us...or am I?

Post by **Skullomania** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:37 pm

Yeah some people have realy interesting and stupid way of thinking and expressing themselves to the others,sorry to hear that Femto but it seems
that you're not a true fan to the berserk series since you dont get the idea of why the series are continuing to evolve and devellop.

Post by **Nonni** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:29 pm

You're sorry for your personal opinion ? Well it's your choice if you stop buying the manga although i.m.o Berserk is one of the best.

But hell .. when I saw that you had over 4000 posts I never thought you didn't like Berserk. (After Eclipse that is).

Post by **jojokaizer** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:23 pm

even though I still enjoy reading berserk from time to time, I do have to agree with the OP on this. nothing so far has come anything close to the greatness of the flash back arcs before vol 13 ish. berserk basically fell from my favorite manga to something I read if it's translated. not saying I don't like it anymore, just seems like the series is losing focus and dragging things on far too long. I still think there are no managa/anime better then the flash back arcs of berserk, and I really hope it goes back on that track for the rest up-coming volumes.

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:49 pm

I'll agree that i enjoyed the first 13 a littel more, not because it was better or worse, but because it had a different genre to it. muira has just aken it along a different path. and can we make it a rule in the FAQ that no one can complain about how berseks has gotten "off the path" or anything like that. If people paid attention to the little details you'd notice a lot of really important things happening in the development of the plot and characters

Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:14 pm

The bad point of the story after the eclipse is that most of the new characters (Farneze,Schierke,Isidoro,vegetative Caska,...) are less charismatic than the old ones but,thanks to the great scenario,Berserk didn't lost his quality,imo.

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:50 pm

ya the new group will never compare to the old one, though they are starting to become more developed

Post by **jistanidiot** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:40 pm

Femto wrote: Everything else has been mostly unfocused and uninteresting.

I disagree. Guts finally has a purpose, one that keeps his humanity (mindlessly stalking and killing the apostles was insane in a number of ways). New characters have been added. Trying to figure out what purpose they really will serve, I think has been intereting.

These new characters are all gaining strength as they travel with Guts. Guts himself is also changing. Griffth has returned to human form and is building his power base. Yes it is slow, but feels like to me that the story is slowly buidling to something big. What it is I'm not sure, but I'm sure it will be big as all the pieces fall into place.

Oh also I'm betting there will be at least one more delay on them getting onto the boat. This will show one of the character's talent and how they've improved since we first met them.

The story has gone thru a number of different genres. It's now in almost a D&D like story. I suspect there will be at least one more change in genres before the end. People will complain it's gotten off track again, while the rest of us are amazed at the talent of the author.

Also, I'm running out of shelf space.

I certaintly understand the feeling.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:47 pm

I couldn't disagree with you more Femto, but oh well. Nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion. *shrugs*

Post by **Femto** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:50 pm

I've talked about the series downward spiral before.

It's not really the tone in the book that's the problem, it's the complete lack of character and story development.

I see little signs of potential greatness every once in a while, only to be let down soon afterwards.

We're reading about so many fights here and there that have no impact on the story whatsoever. I'd like to think that it's leadind up to something, but it's dragged for too long and has become to generic for me to even worry about what that "something" is.

It's nice to see Guts and Zodd team up, but what's the purpose behind that? Why is that important to the story besides the "OMG that's so cool" factor? I personally thought it was kinda silly anyway.

The new characters have added nothing to the story.

All they do is stand around and explain every single thing that is going on with lots of exclamation marks in between.

I could go on and on.

Someone said I'm not a fan, but there's a big difference between a fan and a fanboy.

I love Berserk, but only the first 13 volumes.

The majority of the series after that is merely average and I'm not buying into it just because it's called Berserk.

I can see myself giving up completely on it by the end of the year.

Maybe not.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:58 pm

Yep, I disagree with pretty much everything you just said *shrugs*. Oh well, you don't have to be a fanboy to be a fan of the current incarnation of Berserk. I've seen plenty of development, of both the plot and the characters. Also the new cast is far more developed and prevalent then most of the old hawks. I mean, aside from Casca and Judeau, the other guys hardly said or did anything. Besides, Casca and Rickert are still around, kind of. The new cast has had WAY more development. I mean, the flashback with Farnese and Serpico for example. We never saw anything like that with Judeau. We've come to know this cast on a much more personal level. I could go on, but I'll refrain for now.

Post by **Khelegond** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:12 pm

Maybe you read the full Band of the Hawk arc, and started to read everything at chapters later...that somewhat breaks the mood. I love berserk, and I like the pace at things are going...

Funny thing is my favorite arc is the one with Roshinu (sp?), and it's right after the Band of the Hawk arc.

I like some of the new characters...they have more development than some of the band of the hawk (like Starnum explained), but they're less charismatic. Judeau was simply great, and pre-eclipse Casca was one of the best characters of the manga. But Serpico and Farneze are extremely well designed, to the point where we can say their reactions in antecipation...

But in the end, opinions differ...I hope you change your mind and stick at the boards

Post by **Femto** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:23 pm

Starnum wrote:Yep, I disagree with pretty much everything you just said *shrugs*. Oh well, you don't have to be a fanboy to be a fan of the current incarnation of Berserk. I've seen plenty of development, of both the plot and the characters. Also the new cast is far more developed and prevalent then most of the old hawks. I mean, aside from Casca and Judeau, the other guys hardly said or did anything. Besides, Casca and Rickert are still around, kind of. The new cast has had WAY more development. I mean, the flashback with Farnese and Serpico for example. We never saw anything like that with Judeau. We've come to know this cast on a much more personal level. I could go on, but I'll refrain for now.

1) The new cast has had for more "screen time" than the Hawks, yet most would agree that the latter cast is more interesting and appealing, i.e. lack of character development.

2) The flashback scene with Serpico and Farnese has not even been whispered about in recent chapters. It was there and not it's gone, i.e. lack of character development.

3) Go back and read Berserk when the current cast first started travelling as a group and read about them now. There will, most likely, not be any major differences in the story at all, i.e. lack of character (and story) development.

It's not even about the Hawks being more appealing than the current cast. Corkus was an asshole but he had a purpose in life and things he wanted to do. I don't even know why Ishidoro is still in the book, he is as useless as LordMune.

You can disagree with me as much as you want, but you're not putting any effort in proving why it is so.

Volumes 1-13 of Berserk were bold and inspired.

Current volumes are cookie-cutter and dull.

EDIT: Reading chapters instead of volumes may have something to do with it but I assure you, if I were to read any of the current volumes in one sitting (which I have no desire to do), I would probably feel the exact same way.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:37 pm

Don't worry, I don't believe you as much as you don't believe me. Heh, and I've put about as much effort into this as you have. Besides, I don't really feel like I need to prove anything. I doubt anything I say will change your opinion, and frankly, I don't care. It's not like you're proving anything. I mean, all your doing is stating your opinion, not facts. I can talk about how Schierke has a very important role in the current crew, and mention the several times she's saved their asses, or talk about Farnese's development from a whore-mongering heretic burning fanatic, into a decent woman. I could explain that Isidro has ambition, and follows Gatts because he admires him, much like Farnese. However, does that necessarily prove anything? Your entitled to your own opinion man, I'm not here to shove mine down your throat. However, thus far nothing you've said is any more valid than what I've said. Regardless of how objective you may think you're being, it ultimately comes down to a difference in taste. The style of Berserk changed, and thus you ceased to like it as much. The quality hasn't decreased at all, and personally I like it more now, than what it used to be.

Post by **Femto** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:55 pm

Starnum wrote:Don't worry, I don't believe you as much as you don't believe me. Heh, and I've put about as much effort into this as you have. Besides, I don't really feel like I need to prove anything. I doubt anything I say will change your opinion, and frankly, I don't care. It's not like you're proving anything. I mean, all your doing is stating your opinion, not facts. I can talk about how Schierke has a very important role in the current crew, and mention the several times she's saved their asses, or talk about Farnese's development from a whore-mongering heretic burning fanatic, into a decent woman. I could explain that Isidro has ambition, and follows Gatts because he admires him, much like Farnese. However, does that necessarily prove anything? Your entitled to your own opinion man, I'm not here to shove mine down your throat. However, thus far nothing you've said is any more valid than what I've said. Regardless of how objective you may think you're being, it ultimately comes down to a difference in taste. The style of Berserk changed, and thus you ceased to like it as much. The quality hasn't decreased at all, and personally I like it more now, than what it used to be.

You don't understand.

Good storytelling is not just something that happens when you sit down to write, it's a very complicated thinking process. You build up tension, you set things up early on, you contrast between characters and settings, you let your characters learn and grow, you lead readers to believe something and then pull the rug from under them, you avoid cliches, you provide good imagery (for visual arts at least), etc, etc, etc.

Berserk used to have these things but it's nothing but a shadow of that now. That Berserk was far better during it's first 13 volumes has little to do with opinion.

If you looked outside the walls of a rabid anime lover you'd be able to realize that.

That's why something like 100 Bullets gets talked about in literature classes and something like One Piece is mocked and ridiculed at.

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:36 pm

well the first 13 volumes set up the rest of the manga, and that's what i believe muira is doing right now. I think the development that Guts is going through as a character is very well done and that muira does a really good job weaving together a complex pattern/path that the manga is on. since i haven't reread the manga in over a year i couldn't tell you which i really like more, but i do agree that im more sentimental about the first 13 volumes and out of the group now, Guts and Puck are the only ones i care about. *EDIT* which is why i think muira did such a great job setting the story up. if people are still so sentimental about the first 13volumes imagine what Guts' character has gone through

though i have a feeling he might have changed his mind as to where it was going half way through, in part because he took out the "lost chapter"

edit: i guess this also explains why i havent seen you active in the berserk section for a while

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:42 pm

Excuse me, you think I don't understand what good story telling is? That's insulting, and so is this shit about being a rabid anime fan. That's some lame ass bull shit, and a sorry ass way of defaming me. If you'd pull your stuck-up head out of your ass, you might realize that your not some genius who knows more about shit then other people. See, it's not nice to take shots at people's character. It can be aggravating. You can be a cool guy Femto, but it's annoying when you think that just because you say something that makes it fact, or that it's right.

There's no way you can sit here and say that when you say the first section of Berserk is better than the rest is anymore than opinion. It's a critique, and just like what critics say about movies, regardless of how fucking smart they think they are, and how many hours of some class they've had, and all that bullshit, it's still a fucking opinion. It's not cold hard fact, like the laws of gravity or some shit. Besides that, I really am tired of this lame come back of yours about me being an anime fan. Yes, I like anime. That doesn't make my opinions any less valid than yours. I mean, what the fuck do you take me for man, some n00b ass fanboy. Geez, I thought you knew me a little better than that, but maybe not.

I don't know, that's just the impression you've been giving me lately. Truthfully that's the same excuse you're always using, and I think it's a pretty lame defense. Besides, if you don't like anime so much, then what the fuck are you doing here? If you don't like Berserk so much, then why are you here? Just to fucking troll the boards? This place was founded on a love of Berserk and anime/manga, you realize. Everything else, like all the bullshit in OTW, came after. I'm not saying we don't have some great shit here, because frankly I think this is the best message board I've ever seen, but when you get down to it, it's still mainly about anime and manga. It's simply evolved since then, and that's great.

You know, there's a lot in my life besides those things, and I can appreciate many other things. I know how to fucking distinguish quality art and story telling, from generic bullshit, and yeah there's a lot of shitty anime out there, I know. I've seen it, and I try to avoid it. I'm not some close-minded fucking fanboy, as you seem to take me for. Sorry, but this has just been bugging me for a while... I swear, fuck literature classes. Maybe if you could step out of your rabid stuck-up college boy mentally, you'd realize you're not the only one who knows anything. I fucking hate how people think that just because they've taken some classes that they're a fucking genius, or that their word is the law, or that their infallible.

I mean, you know when you start considering your opinion on a piece of fictional material to be anything other than subjective, you know you're losing touch. Yeah, there's a noticeable line between shitty anime (or any kind of story telling) and high quality material. However, Berserk isn't shitty, and it hasn't gotten any worse, it's just changed. Truthfully, I'm not even worried about the Berserk issue so much at this point. Your pompous attitude has really been irritating me lately, and I guess it's coming to a head. Yeah, I'm probably over-reacting, as that's what I do. However, you used to be a lot cooler. I don't know what the fuck happened, but I really wish you'd pull the stick out of your ass. I mean, it's one thing to flame n00bs, but there's no need to go around like your the shit, and act all arrogant like you have been.

God, and please don't even tell me your talking shit about One Piece too. Have you ever fucking watched or read it, especially all of it. It's got one of the richest and best told stories I've ever seen, and if some close-minded stuck up college people can't see that, then who gives a fuck what they think anyway. I mean, the shit can be so emotionally powerful sometimes that's it's ridiculous. It can make you laugh, cry, and inspire you to take on the world. Just because it's a funny looking cartoon, doesn't mean shit, and any open-minded person would know that. You want to talk about things not being a matter of opinion. One Piece is so fucking good, that if you try to deny that, then you don't know shit about about what makes a good story. No, it's not something that should be taught in literature classes, because it's not meant to be fucking literature. It's just fucking retarded in the head to even compare them. It's a comic book, but it's a hell of a lot better than some of the pretentious stale ass literature I've read. Not to say there aren't some true masterpieces out there. However, in the world of anime/manga, and even just story-telling, One Piece is also a masterpiece.

Meh, anyway...damn, feels good to get that off my chest. So in conclusion, if the best retort you can come up with is taking shots at my "fanaticism" in anime, then go back to class and get some new material. Anyway, I'm pretty much done here now, but thank you for another pearl of a thread. I look forward to your next thread, about how you're going to go get a sex change, or some bullshit. Aren't personal threads just great. I know, how about a thread about how you got an HDTV, like Damien's. I mean, that's basically what this is. Who the hell gives a care? If you're going to stop buying, or reading Berserk, good for you. Why don't you go post about it on the Yahoo board, or 4-chan or something, with the rest of the fucking trolls. I'd be great if you could take this massive ass post into consideration, instead of nothing more than a shot at your pride. I'm saying all this shit because I do care, you know. I mean hell, I use to consider you one of my closest online friends (whatever the hell that means) but for a while now, it's like I don't even know who you are. Oh well, you probably don't care. I guess I can look forward to some snide ass comment that really doesn't make a fuck about anything, right? Heh, who knows, maybe you'll surprise me. Oh well, guess we'll see. Take care.

Post by **psi29a** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:58 pm

... One Piece 4 teh win!1!111one

right, I'll just wonder over here now *flips on ep 275*

I think it just kills people that it comes out one chapter at a time, 2 or 4 weeks at a time. You can get burned out real quick like that.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:13 pm

Ugh, sorry guys, I guess it's that time of the month. Who knows, maybe I'm just full of shit. *Wanders off to feel ill*

(God I'm such a drama-queen sometimes.)

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:14 pm

its hard to look at the forest when you're shown one tree at a time.

Post by **psi29a** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:16 pm

MrFelony wrote:its hard to look at the forest when you're shown one tree at a time.

Can i quote you on that? (oh, the irony).

Post by **jojokaizer** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:14 pm

don't really think it's the fact that it comes out slow every week, more to the problem that it has no or little development overall. I simply don't really care about the characters as I did with guts, griffith, and caska. all I see now are a few generic spot fillers running around with guts.......

flash back arcs had basically everything going for it, some of THE best character growth/development in any manga/anime and very good pacing on story progression. as the direction bersker is heading, it really seems like it's turning in to a very generic typical group vs group fight series like a lot of manga/animes out there. so unless like 2 or 3 ppl in the group now gets killed off (which is highly unlikely) I really don't see anything of insterest happening anytime soon.

Post by **Istvan** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:07 pm

That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. I think you're wrong, but then that's my opinion. Personally, I think the stories still going very strong, and that there's been a lot of development since volume 13. Hey though, if you don't like it, don't read it, nobody's forcing you (at least I hope they aren't).

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:22 am

Femto wrote:You don't understand.

Good storytelling is not just something that happens when you sit down to write, it's a very complicated thinking process. You build up tension, you set things up early on, you contrast between characters and settings, you let your characters learn and grow, you lead readers to believe something and then pull the rug from under them, you avoid cliches, you provide good imagery (for visual arts at least), etc, etc, etc.

Berserk used to have these things but it's nothing but a shadow of that now. That Berserk was far better during it's first 13 volumes has little to do with opinion.

hehehe So doesn't that mean Muira might be gripping the rug and getting ready to yank on it? ^_^ But yea, I agree with Femmy with how dulled down it has gotten...but, perhaps it's time to get it sharpened. I'll keep at it with my undying faith in Muira but I'm not buying any volumes because I have nooooo money! And I got them all on compyutah! But I do miss the hardcoreness of the first arcs...Who knows, maybe it will pick up or maybe Muira has gone off the deep end. ^_^

Also true that when you get chapter.....wait....get chapter....wait...it does get aggitating so I can see why some are getting mad. Muira needs to build Morale better than sticking Guts on Zodds back for a fight with no explanation. (Of course that was just the last chapter...maybe some fun in the next.)

Evil Genius

I'm probably going to stop buying Berserk after vol. 13.

I'm probably going to stop buying Berserk after vol. 13.

Re: I'm probably going to stop buying Berserk after vol. 13.