Evil Genius

psi29a wrote:Berserk falls under a fiction genre of literature. Graphic novels and comic books present stories told in a combination of sequential artwork, dialogs and text. As such, they constitute a related narrative form of literature. Because of this, it is a literary work.

pwnage.

FightClub wrote:Are you certified to be a professional bullshitter, or is it something you just do in your spare time?

Facade19 wrote:First and foremost my gripe with FightClub was (is) that he disregards(ed) the OP's entire thread because the OP referred(s) to Berserk as literature. That to me is very ignoble and unconsidered.

And thank you, that's the most beautiful thing i've heard all day. FightClub the ignoble, fucking tight la.

The ignoble should not speak, it makes his situation only worse.

Shut the fuck up bitch. Just because I laughed about you calling me ignoble doesn't make you any more valid, or right, in my opinion you're just a dickless english major trying to act superior. Sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a fucking chicken.

Have a nice day, fucktard.

psi29a wrote:Berserk falls under a fiction genre of literature. Graphic novels and comic books present stories told in a combination of sequential artwork, dialogs and text. As such, they constitute a related narrative form of literature. Because of this, it is a literary work.

Yes. Comic books and other various forms such as graphic novels are often referred as 'graphic literature'. There are a lot of people that laugh at the thought of a comic being a form of literature, but it's true. They are a form of literature, but are not readily recognised as one by everyone.

Fightclub is being ridiculously shortsighted in his assessment of Berserk and of manga and graphic art in general. I'm sure there are plenty of Manga-ka's and writers for western "comics" who would be pretty upset with you if you told them that what they do is not art.

Regardless of the medium used, a great abstract story can be art. The medium itself is not responsible for this, the medium is just the tool that the artist uses. They can use a canvas, or a novel, or a manga, or a video game, and instrument it can be any of these and more.

Crono454 wrote:Fightclub is being ridiculously shortsighted in his assessment of Berserk and of manga and graphic art in general. I'm sure there are plenty of Manga-ka's and writers for western "comics" who would be pretty upset with you if you told them that what they do is not art.

Regardless of the medium used, a great abstract story can be art. The medium itself is not responsible for this, the medium is just the tool that the artist uses. They can use a canvas, or a novel, or a manga, or a video game, and instrument it can be any of these and more.

You're apparently even more shortsighted, not realizing that I was saying Berserk is not LITERATURE. Learn to read the above posts before you start butting in with dumb ass replies. My point wasn't that berserk isn't art because it very much is, I love berserk, I love the imagery it produces, my debate is that it was not LITERATURE. Please don't make me repeat myself again. I'm honestly tired of morons picking a fight.

FightClub wrote:Shut the fuck up bitch. Just because I laughed about you calling me ignoble doesn't make you any more valid, or right, in my opinion you're just a dickless english major trying to act superior. Sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a fucking chicken.

Have a nice day, fucktard.

Facade19 wrote: The ignoble should not speak, it makes his situation only worse.

FightClub wrote: Because berserk isn't literature per say, more like a picture book with a lot more words than other picture books. I mean seriously, who would put Berserk up there with Gatsby or Mice and Men... It's just a very silly statement.

Umm, yeah, you're an idiot.

What writers do with just words, mangaka (and comic book artists) do with words AND images. And as far as both are concerned, Miura is right up there. Would I say Berserk would be as good without the images? NO, definitely not. Would be just as good with any other words but MIura's? Hell no.
As a combination art form, yes, Miura's Berserk is up there with Gatsby (which is, incidentally, not nearly the masterpiece it is put out to be) and Mice and Men.

P.S.: It's written "per se", meaning "by itself".

Aw, shit, now I done it, I've lectured an idiot.

Aw, shit, now I done it, I've lectured an idiot.

The reason I've mostly been staying out of this. I figured its not really worth it trying to explain things to him.

A Theory

Griffith isn't evil and never has been. yes, he did sacrifice the band of the hawk and is a member of the god hand. What if the sacrifice wasn't selfish. He did it to gain power to establish what he thinks would be a suitable world.(Assuming that his intent is good) and the slaughter of the bank of the hawk was no different from lets say the American soldiers in world war 2 sacrificing their life for freedom. (I know its a stretch) Griffith being the white hawk and all is bringing good to the world while guts not seeing this finds a way to stop Griffith thus being the black hawk and a turn of events guts being the bad guy without realizing it.

But thats kinda depressing so I hope not.
Tell me if you think its a retarded theory.

Yes, I think that is a retarded theory.

I second that motion.

In Berserk evil and good are very vague ideas that can be attributed to any character easily. You're just stating the obvious.

War Machine wrote:I second that motion.

In Berserk evil and good are very vague ideas that can be attributed to any character easily. You're just stating the obvious.

In general the idea of Good and Evil is "slighty" diferent from context to context, or at least the symbols attach to these two notions.
Also i find dificult to write a good and acurate theory of berserk when:

1) It's fiction work based on a personal intrepertation of it's author and his influences (and most likely also a bit of research)
2) It isn't over. There is still a lot to be done and a lot of other pieces that are need to create a intrepertative theory of Berserk

Death&Rebirth wrote:

War Machine wrote:I second that motion.

In Berserk evil and good are very vague ideas that can be attributed to any character easily. You're just stating the obvious.

In general the idea of Good and Evil is "slighty" diferent from context to context, or at least the symbols attach to these two notions.
Also i find dificult to write a good and acurate theory of berserk when:

1) It's fiction work based on a personal intrepertation of it's author and his influences (and most likely also a bit of research)
2) It isn't over. There is still a lot to be done and a lot of other pieces that are need to create a intrepertative theory of Berserk

agreed, great 2nd post. let us avoid good and evil, else we rekindle the debate yet a 4th time.

citanuzuki666 wrote:Griffith isn't evil and never has been. yes, he did sacrifice the band of the hawk and is a member of the god hand. What if the sacrifice wasn't selfish. He did it to gain power to establish what he thinks would be a suitable world.(Assuming that his intent is good) and the slaughter of the bank of the hawk was no different from lets say the American soldiers in world war 2 sacrificing their life for freedom.

And the raping? How is the raping good again?

hbi2k wrote:

citanuzuki666 wrote:Griffith isn't evil and never has been. yes, he did sacrifice the band of the hawk and is a member of the god hand. What if the sacrifice wasn't selfish. He did it to gain power to establish what he thinks would be a suitable world.(Assuming that his intent is good) and the slaughter of the bank of the hawk was no different from lets say the American soldiers in world war 2 sacrificing their life for freedom.

And the raping? How is the raping good again?

I also don't totally agree but Caska was more concerned about Guts (Gatts, Gatsu, heck...) watching than by being "raped" by "Femto".

Death&Rebirth wrote:
I also don't totally agree but Caska was more concerned about Guts (Gatts, Gatsu, heck...) watching than by being "raped" by "Femto".

Totally true. I believe she said something along the lines of "no dont watch" rather then "stop you f*cking a$$hole"... well you get the idea. Poor Gutts *cries*

lon3vvolf wrote:

Death&Rebirth wrote:
I also don't totally agree but Caska was more concerned about Guts (Gatts, Gatsu, heck...) watching than by being "raped" by "Femto".

Totally true. I believe she said something along the lines of "no dont watch" rather then "stop you f*cking a$$hole"... well you get the idea. Poor Gutts *cries*

Uh, guys, don't step on that bandwagon. Guts was being torn apart while trying to save her, and then torturing himself watching her. She did NOT enjoy being raped. If she had, she wouldn't have turned into a vegetable afterwards. She wanted to spare him the pain of sharing her suffering. Do not get the idea that she just wanted to spare him the shame. Guts never gave a rats ass about shame.

Brainpiercing wrote:

lon3vvolf wrote:

Death&Rebirth wrote:
I also don't totally agree but Caska was more concerned about Guts (Gatts, Gatsu, heck...) watching than by being "raped" by "Femto".

Totally true. I believe she said something along the lines of "no dont watch" rather then "stop you f*cking a$$hole"... well you get the idea. Poor Gutts *cries*

Uh, guys, don't step on that bandwagon. Guts was being torn apart while trying to save her, and then torturing himself watching her. She did NOT enjoy being raped. If she had, she wouldn't have turned into a vegetable afterwards. She wanted to spare him the pain of sharing her suffering. Do not get the idea that she just wanted to spare him the shame. Guts never gave a rats ass about shame.

I have slighty diferent intrepertation of that scene, because to both Guts and Caska, that wasn't Femto but Griffith. Caska did have a crush on Griffith that wasn't forgotten even with the building romantic relationship with Guts. She didn't enjoyed it but it wasn't all out of consentment. What she saw was Griffith "taking" her there and accepting her has a "consort" of some kind. Although not the most ideal situation it was better then nothing to her . It might sound a bit awkward, but she was willing to bear it being rape by "Griffith" because it was he whish.
But she was in a dilema, because at their front was the man she gave herself (virginity) to and which have builded strong fellings about. So the phrase "Please...Don't Watch" between moans was more out of shame of the situation (and of dilema). It was one last nail in her sanity.

At least this is how i see it. In true only Miura could explain well what is happening.

Off-topic: Somewhat i miss those "Giger-esque" scenes like we seen during Eclipse. Also this lastest volumes aren't so erotic as it was from vol.11 to the vol.26 (the fight with the trolls in the cave to save the girls of a village).

I have slighty diferent intrepertation of that scene, because to both Guts and Caska, that wasn't Femto but Griffith. Caska did have a crush on Griffith that wasn't forgotten even with the building romantic relationship with Guts. She didn't enjoyed it but it wasn't all out of consentment. What she saw was Griffith "taking" her there and accepting her has a "consort" of some kind. Although not the most ideal situation it was better then nothing to her . It might sound a bit awkward, but she was willing to bear it being rape by "Griffith" because it was he whish.
But she was in a dilema, because at their front was the man she gave herself (virginity) to and which have builded strong fellings about. So the phrase "Please...Don't Watch" between moans was more out of shame of the situation (and of dilema). It was one last nail in her sanity.

I think this theory is totally absurd, for any number of reasons. Two really obvious ones (there are more) would be that first, she'd just watched Griffith order a hord of demons to slaughter the entire Band of the Hawks, and got to expierence they're very traumatic deaths. Second, the expierence of being raped and tortured by someone she'd been in love with was so horrible and shocking to her that she turned into a vegatable afterwards. She asked Guts not to watch because she hated it and didn't want him to have to expierence/witness it as well.

Istvan wrote:

I have slighty diferent intrepertation of that scene, because to both Guts and Caska, that wasn't Femto but Griffith. Caska did have a crush on Griffith that wasn't forgotten even with the building romantic relationship with Guts. She didn't enjoyed it but it wasn't all out of consentment. What she saw was Griffith "taking" her there and accepting her has a "consort" of some kind. Although not the most ideal situation it was better then nothing to her . It might sound a bit awkward, but she was willing to bear it being rape by "Griffith" because it was he whish.
But she was in a dilema, because at their front was the man she gave herself (virginity) to and which have builded strong fellings about. So the phrase "Please...Don't Watch" between moans was more out of shame of the situation (and of dilema). It was one last nail in her sanity.

I think this theory is totally absurd, for any number of reasons. Two really obvious ones (there are more) would be that first, she'd just watched Griffith order a hord of demons to slaughter the entire Band of the Hawks, and got to expierence they're very traumatic deaths. Second, the expierence of being raped and tortured by someone she'd been in love with was so horrible and shocking to her that she turned into a vegatable afterwards. She asked Guts not to watch because she hated it and didn't want him to have to expierence/witness it as well.

Actually she doesn't sees that his Griffith that decides to sacrifice the "Hawks", but Guts does. Even by seeing it, Guts doesn't believe that it's Griffith decision. Caska and the others are totally oblivious to what's happening. Just go see her expressions during that scene and tell me how much she is "hating" all of that. Like i said, she isn't enjoying it any bit but she doesn't seem to hated it either.

Just to state my opinion on this matter. I don't agree whatsoever on Caska enjoying it. From the beginning of her time in the Hawks she knew Griffith was out of reach for her but she still had a crush on him. As the story progressed Griffith followed his dream as best as he could and made the right choice, to him anyway, when he joined the Godhand. Caska realized she loved Gutts and gave herself to him after he came back. Gutts seemed a bit upbeat too [after she gave herself to him ^_~].

During the Sacrifice the Hawks were torn apart in the most violent ways, and she witnessed all of it. When Femto/Griffith took her, she knew what was going to happen. First she was mind f*cked, and now she was going to be raped without consent, all the while the person whom she just gave herself to had to watch. Pretty obvious that she hated every part of it. When she says "no, don't watch," to me it goes along the lines of "what you don't know wont hurt you." So both her and Gutts are in a helpless situation and telling him not to watch is the only thing she could do. We all saw what Gutts did to try and help her, and she probably knew he would do anything and everything, so she tried to help him... in my opinion anyway.

And the raping? How is the raping good again?

yeah, it is a dumb theory. I had just come up with it off the top of my head.