Is it the Idea of Evil?

Post by **raziel** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:29 am

No, what I meant is I'm wondering why he would like to go back to a "seemingly" human form rather than remaining a powerful godhand. All for being a ruler of a kingdom? I thought being a godhand would give more power over controlling people's lives.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:31 am

I doubt he lost any of his powers. He's most likely just as strong in this form as when he was Femto, and he looks a lot better too.

Post by **Libaax** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:53 am

Nah its pretty clear he hasnt lost his power and why would he care about being a king when he is a god to some people.

Post by **Shisho** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:23 am

It's made pretty clear that killing apostles ("their men") doesn't affect them in the least. They even said that it doesn't matter how many of his kind (talking to the Count I believe when he suggested the same lines of loyalty) die it won't change a thing. They obviously know a greater deal than the reader about what the plan is and how it's carried out. I'm sure more will spawn to fill the places.

maybe the idea had planned to let Guts live all along maybe not

Well it's one of two things certainly. Either it's planned or replanned, and we know it's one of these two things for sure as Griffith's deformed child being the medium of his rebirth. Now the way to know is to figure out exactly when the behelit apostle was given his powers. If it was pre-femto then we know it was planned or known that Gatz and Caska would live, if not it was an adjustment to take advantage of an opportunity.

Post by **Istvan** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:01 am

To me the child being part of Griffith's rebirth seems like one of those unplanned accidents that sometimes occur during the eclipses. I don't see any reason why the child was necessary, the egg apostle was the one giving birth to the new world (in the form of Griffith). The egg guy just made the baby a part of him on what seemed like a whim. It might even end up being a problem, if what Griffith said about it while watching Guts and Zodd fight for the second time was accurate.

Post by **Libaax** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:13 am

Shisho wrote:It's made pretty clear that killing apostles ("their men") doesn't affect them in the least. They even said that it doesn't matter how many of his kind (talking to the Count I believe when he suggested the same lines of loyalty) die it won't change a thing. They obviously know a greater deal than the reader about what the plan is and how it's carried out. I'm sure more will spawn to fill the places.

The thing we dont know what happens when they lose apostles or how they make new ones. We dont know anything about the God Hands powers except they make apostles. Which is boring that you dont know anything about the bad guys.

Post by **Shisho** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:37 am

If everything is planned then their deaths are at a given time that they already know and have preordained.

Post by **Libaax** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:27 am

Why would the God Hands know what is gonna happen. They arent godlike like the idea in that way or did i miss something.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:44 am

I think the Behelit Apostle probably came to be one after the eclipse. I'm not even sure if that apostle was a part of some plan by Idea, to give Griffith a new body. However, I think it is possible. However, it could've also been something spontaneous, that Griffith and Idea were able to take advantage of at the time. When the Apostle Behelit sacrificed Albion, it seemed to change the entire world. Opening up rifts to Qliphoth, were the trolls came from, after all.

Post by **Shisho** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:44 pm

Libaax wrote:Why would the God Hands know what is gonna happen. They arent godlike like the idea in that way or did i miss something.

Yes, I think you did. They all are connected to Idea in ways unknown, but they all also speak of their abilities to foresee events. If it's specific individual powers or if it's a connection to Idea we do not known. They do know what "destiny" has planned.

I was more specifically referring to Idea anyway. He "plans" the birth, purpose, and death of all the apostles.

Post by **raziel** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:46 pm

I suppose the Godhand can foresee events, but i wonder why they are so suprised (mainly Slan) when Gatts is fighting so well and desperately in the eclipse. I don't understand how they can predict some things but not others.

BTW, anyone know how long or when the apostles started to appear? It seems weird how the snake baron seemed to be ruling his city for a long time (even though apostles only appeared around the eclipse?). It's the same question with the count also.

Post by **Jon Maitreya** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:50 pm

Hey, I was just reading throgh this thread, and this is on the original discussion on Id/Idea (though it has passed). I flicked through the discussion and couldn't find any reference to the below, however it's plausible that I missed it - if so appologies.

It is likely that Miura's concept of the Idea of Evil stems from the writings of the Greek Philosopher Plato - the World of 'Forms.' The word for Forms can also be translated as 'Ideas.'

In Platonic philosophy, there exists another level of reality seperate from our own - this is the World of Forms. In this world exists the perfect template of all things in existence, from animate and inanimate objects to concepts and emotions. Thus there is a Form of Love, and Form of Courage, but also Forms like the Form of Dog, Form of Chair, and of course, the Form of Human. All material things represent 'watered-down' versions of this perfect templates. Thus the previous exampels represent the model of Perfect Love and Courage, and the Perfect Dog, Chair, and Human respectively.

The highest of all the Forms in Platonic philosophy is the 'Form of Good' - which is supreme over all other Forms. It is the quality of 'Perfect Goddness.' This could also be translated 'The Idea of Good.'

Thus, in Berserk we have the 'Idea of Evil' - the template or model for all things evil. The Godhand, Apostles, etc. as the 'evil' antagonists of the manga, represent the material 'watered-down' versions of this perfect Evil ('Ideal Evil' one might say). Plato himself, when questioned on whether an Idea/Form of Evil existed, was rather reticent and never answered the question.

As Miura researched much of European (and world) history in crafting Berserk, and uses a myriad of other philosophical-esoteric teachings, such as Od (for an immediate example), it is highly likely he came across the Platonic Forms.

Oh, and though I'm not strictly new here, this is my first post, so hello to everyone here!

Jon Maitreya

Post by **Libaax** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:50 pm

They can forsee events but People can change what is suppose to happen,Guts is prove of that. maybe thats why Slan has a thing for him.

I think there were apostles before Femto cause there were four God Hands that made apostles. The count seem to want help from void or the fat head when he wanted a second chance,so they made him prolly.

Post by **Istvan** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:23 pm

I suppose the Godhand can foresee events, but i wonder why they are so suprised (mainly Slan) when Gatts is fighting so well and desperately in the eclipse. I don't understand how they can predict some things but not others.

BTW, anyone know how long or when the apostles started to appear? It seems weird how the snake baron seemed to be ruling his city for a long time (even though apostles only appeared around the eclipse?). It's the same question with the count also.

They also mention that very rarely they miss things, and also that during the eclipse it is possible for things to go against the plan.

The apostles have been apearing for a long time. It's not that they only appear around the eclipse, its that they all gather for it. My impression was that the ceremony for Femto was more elaborate then most (as one would expect) but most of the time the apostles are in the real world. Notice, for example, that the Band of the Hawk meets two of them before the eclipse. Probably the apostles have been appearing since Void was created, and the best guess as to when that was is in the time of King Gaiseric (around the time Midland was founded, so quite a while ago).

Post by **Starnum** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:20 am

Yeah, as far as we know, the God Hand and apostles go back at least a thousand years. As for what Jon was saying about "The World of Forms", that's very interesting. I hadn't heard of that philosophy of Plato's, but I'm guessing it did influence Miura-san. He's been stated as researching the Roman Period quite a bit for Berserk.

Post by **Faienel** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:04 pm

Istvan wrote:
They also mention that very rarely they miss things, and also that during the eclipse it is possible for things to go against the plan.

I still don't get why people think that Guts survival was "out of plan". It was necessary to happen exactly like things had occurred. Without the two survivers Grifftith's Rebirth had never happened for example.

Why they seemed surprised was more the fact that they DON'T know everything...they are the "God Hand", and hands do not act on their own.
You could call them the "Executives" that do everything as they are mend and intended to do, and not as they please.

Just remind the scene when Femto tries to kill the fleeing SK+G+C...well most people interpret. it as Femto hesitated, but i think (and iam pretty sure in this) that Femto was not able to kill them, as he was not mend to kill them. He was not allowed to.
Well, i don't want to get too much into this, as it would take too much time to write all the stuff i would bring up on this one, and time is what i don't have right now

maybe another day.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:07 pm

so you think they knew it was gonna happen, just didn't know how?

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:41 pm

Why they seemed surprised was more the fact that they DON'T know everything...they are the "God Hand", and hands do not act on their own.
You could call them the "Executives" that do everything as they are mend and intended to do, and not as they please.

Um... that sort of directly goes against everything we know so far. They do everything on their own. From God Hand down to apostle, it has been explicitly stated that the only command they are given by Idea is "Do what you want," so they always do as they please. One can argue (I have) that Idea gives this command because it already believes it knows how they will act, but if Griffith hesitated, it is because he chose to, not because Idea made him.

Post by **Sandman** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:46 am

Ok Femto tryed to kill them but missed, I think it was either a new power that he didnt fully understand, or SK is that good to beable to dodge his attack. And techniclly the rebirth could have happened without Guts and SK but not Caska. So I think that after she gave birth to the demon human thing she would have been an empty shell of a person or something. But the Idea of Evil probably has some plan for her like she is a spy of sorts for him.

Post by **Shisho** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:53 am

raziel wrote:I suppose the Godhand can foresee events, but i wonder why they are so suprised (mainly Slan) when Gatts is fighting so well and desperately in the eclipse. I don't understand how they can predict some things but not others.

I wouldn't say suprised as much as I would say amused. I'm sure they have limits like any other sort of underling. They're not pawns so to speak in the Berserk chessboard, but they're aren't the king either.

BTW, anyone know how long or when the apostles started to appear? It seems weird how the snake baron seemed to be ruling his city for a long time (even though apostles only appeared around the eclipse?). It's the same question with the count also.

I would assume that they were in familiar places all along, it's just the story wasn't involved with them. They had a run in with Zodd during the course of the old story, and apparently Wylad was amongst their ranks during the war. It's just they weren't brought into the story as it would either be irrelevant, not understood, or potentially spoil the story. He selectively introduced them, but they were there, just not in the scope of Gatz's story in that time period. He thought of them more as random monsters of the world at that time rather than a force having an origin and an agenda.

Starnum wrote:Yeah, as far as we know, the God Hand and apostles go back at least a thousand years. As for what Jon was saying about "The World of Forms", that's very interesting. I hadn't heard of that philosophy of Plato's, but I'm guessing it did influence Miura-san. He's been stated as researching the Roman Period quite a bit for Berserk.

Plato was a Greek philospher.

Post by **Devil_Dante** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:37 pm

With the coming of Femto , the world started to change (more demons). But not all demons are apostles... right?
And the god hand do move on their own. Remember Slan in Qlipoth*.
SK asked: "were you summoned"
Slan: "I came here on my own"...

Post by **Tempest** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:42 pm

As far as the God Hand seeing the future, I don't think they can actually see into the fututre, but monitoring human behavior and activity has given them a pretty good ability to predict reactions. They mot likely work like a chess player (or an genius supervillian), playing out things and being a few "moves" ahead of them.

"It's impossible to forsee all things. We are not God himself"

Post by **Istvan** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:49 pm

With the coming of Femto , the world started to change (more demons). But not all demons are apostles... right?
And the god hand do move on their own. Remember Slan in Qlipoth*.
SK asked: "were you summoned"
Slan: "I came here on my own"...

Not so much more demons, as what seems to be more magic/a greater connection to the Astral world. Basically, magical creatures (including evil ones such as trolls) find it easier to enter the world now. The same seems to be true of the God Hand, given the right conditions, as Slan demonstrated.

As far as the God Hand seeing the future, I don't think they can actually see into the fututre, but monitoring human behavior and activity has given them a pretty good ability to predict reactions. They mot likely work like a chess player (or an genius supervillian), playing out things and being a few "moves" ahead of them.

"It's impossible to forsee all things. We are not God himself"

What Slan said is open to a lot of interpretations, and that is certainly one of them. Personally, I think that the God Hand can forsee most (just not all) things, and aren't limited to just predicting based on a knowledge of probable reactions. From various other things they say, it seems as if they just more or less know what's going to happen.

Post by **Shisho** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:07 am

I thought the relation to occurences was not because of the rebirth of Griffith and that wish of a new world.

Post by **Starnum** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:17 am

Shisho wrote:Plato was a Greek philospher.

Heh, oh yeah...my bad. Anyway, I think Griffith was just to new to being Femto, and SK was badass and experienced, and thus got away.