Religio-Scientific Ethics of Cooter Burning (Split Thread)
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Skullkracker
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Devil_Dante
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My wife confirms what Gaiseric posted about Mormons (she is a recovering Mormon). They don't believe in a hell, they have Telestrial 'heaven' which is better than earth but is where sinners go.
If you do everything you are supposed to be a good Mormon, you goto Celestrial Heaven where become a god yourself, lower case god, not God it's self. This smacks of blasphemy from every other christian/jewish/islamic religion.
You have to admit, Mormons may not have their facts straight (or maybe they do, I can't disprove it) but damn if they aren't happy little families who take care of their own.
If you do everything you are supposed to be a good Mormon, you goto Celestrial Heaven where become a god yourself, lower case god, not God it's self. This smacks of blasphemy from every other christian/jewish/islamic religion.
You have to admit, Mormons may not have their facts straight (or maybe they do, I can't disprove it) but damn if they aren't happy little families who take care of their own.
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Shaka Zulu
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Haha, the white magic underwear are just called temple garments. They are worn to remind you that you have made special oaths and covenants to God. And they supposedly 'shield and protect' you from evil. Some claim they protect you from physical harm as well, but my Mormon friends and I have proven that they dont even protect you from paintballs. Though it did put a small hole in his t-shirt and not the garment...
You are supposed to pay 10% of your income to teh LDS church, its called tithing. Its not exactly a requirement to become a member, I mean the dont kick you out if you dont pay. But I believe you have to pay to be temple worthy, which means you have to pay to get into the Celestial Kingdom.
Yeah, a lot of Mormon families are really happy nice people. I mean, even if you are sinner, it still gets better, whats to worry about? But I have found that the mormons outside of utah are much better/nicer people. Most of the ones in Utah are bitches with a 'holier than thou' attitude.
This reminds me of something that has been in the news lately. http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/20 ... nger_x.htm So these people are on the news crying and saying how offensive it is to look at everyday. boo hoo
You are supposed to pay 10% of your income to teh LDS church, its called tithing. Its not exactly a requirement to become a member, I mean the dont kick you out if you dont pay. But I believe you have to pay to be temple worthy, which means you have to pay to get into the Celestial Kingdom.
Yeah, a lot of Mormon families are really happy nice people. I mean, even if you are sinner, it still gets better, whats to worry about? But I have found that the mormons outside of utah are much better/nicer people. Most of the ones in Utah are bitches with a 'holier than thou' attitude.
This reminds me of something that has been in the news lately. http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/20 ... nger_x.htm So these people are on the news crying and saying how offensive it is to look at everyday. boo hoo
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry
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Shaka Zulu
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Yeah, didnt dispute of them not being happy and good natured citizens in general.
They can be as wacky as they want(They just seem to believe in something different then we do, but they stand out from the rest quite clearly in oddness in some of their traditions and beliefs) as long as they live their lifes with the best intentions(which is regardless of religion, the common dominator in all of them) and dont bother others with their beliefs by judging them, like saying they will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell all the time.
Regardless if its a muslim(which I am in a way), Christian, Hindu or a Orthodox Jew or whatever, you suck majorly if all you do is judge other people who didnt choose the same path as you and proclaim what sinners they are(Not to point out Catholicts, and its maybe because they have been the most powerful religion throughout modern history, but they stand out quite clearly in this). Whatever you may believe, one should take solemn in that alone, live your lfie accordinly to that.... and most importantly, recognize that its between you and God alone, as it is with everyone else, its not ones job to judge other people, its Gods.
Pretty random crap of me yes, but just venting random bull because too many of religious people are more occupied with judging other people, and in how wrong they are and live, instead of truly live their lifes by the words of God.
They can be as wacky as they want(They just seem to believe in something different then we do, but they stand out from the rest quite clearly in oddness in some of their traditions and beliefs) as long as they live their lifes with the best intentions(which is regardless of religion, the common dominator in all of them) and dont bother others with their beliefs by judging them, like saying they will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell all the time.
Regardless if its a muslim(which I am in a way), Christian, Hindu or a Orthodox Jew or whatever, you suck majorly if all you do is judge other people who didnt choose the same path as you and proclaim what sinners they are(Not to point out Catholicts, and its maybe because they have been the most powerful religion throughout modern history, but they stand out quite clearly in this). Whatever you may believe, one should take solemn in that alone, live your lfie accordinly to that.... and most importantly, recognize that its between you and God alone, as it is with everyone else, its not ones job to judge other people, its Gods.
Pretty random crap of me yes, but just venting random bull because too many of religious people are more occupied with judging other people, and in how wrong they are and live, instead of truly live their lifes by the words of God.
Until the lion learns to speak, the tales of the hunt will be(weak) told by the hunter
I know exactly what you mean Shaka. That's why I'm not too keen on organized religion. Not all churches are bad, but I can't stand so-called Christians who are really just bigots, spending all their time telling others how they're going to go to Hell, when they don't even really know what Hell is. It's a void, in which Satan is held prisoner. It and the Lake of Fire are two separate things. Anyway, I have my own beliefs, pretty much a non-denominational Christian. Even if I don't agree with someone on their beliefs, I don't try to hate on them and tell them they're wrong, and they're going to Hell, because that's un-Christian. It clearly says in the Bible that only God has the authority to "judge" people. 
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Buzkashi
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I understand what you mean Shaka.
Though most of the Abrahamic Religions say that if you dont follow the said religion you will go to hell. I'm sure most of em also say not to hassle everyone about there faith. I know in the Quran it says to respect the people of the book(Jews and Christains).
Though most of the Abrahamic Religions say that if you dont follow the said religion you will go to hell. I'm sure most of em also say not to hassle everyone about there faith. I know in the Quran it says to respect the people of the book(Jews and Christains).
A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
-Sir Francis Bacon, Of Atheism <---Did I make this my sig? This shits gay as fuck.
-Sir Francis Bacon, Of Atheism <---Did I make this my sig? This shits gay as fuck.
Even though Judas had free will, God still had to pick someone who had to betray Him. I mean His plan isn't shaped by people's freewill but by Him alone imo. Anyway, I think I would agree with mrfelony's idea that maybe he was rewarded for betraying him however odd that seems.Starnum wrote:I don't think he was destined to betray Jesus, as he still had free will. However, God exists outside of time, so he knows the choices you'll make, before you even make them. Did God know that Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yes, of course, God knows everything. However, he still had to give them that option, or else free will couldn't exist. It wasn't some kind of setup or anything. God gives us the right to chose, even if he knows the answer before us, because he's fair. He simply puts the question before us, and allows us to answer it however we want. He knew Judas would betray Jesus, thus Jesus knew as well.raziel wrote:My question deals with the traitor Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus so that he can die on the cross. He was destined according to God's plan to betray Jesus. See I find that horrifying that he was born and lived solely for this doomed fate of betraying Him. Anyone have ideas?
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Killfile
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This is all irrelevant. The will of the Party supersedes all. Everything that isn't forbidden is compulsory. Everything that isn't compulsory is forbidden.
You're all going to the gulag.
No - I don't really believe that stuff -- but this is one of the age old logical dilemmas of Western Civilization. There's really no "right" or "wrong" answer to this.
You're all going to the gulag.
No - I don't really believe that stuff -- but this is one of the age old logical dilemmas of Western Civilization. There's really no "right" or "wrong" answer to this.
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Skullkracker
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Well, I also thought about that, and since you are so keen on knowing more about it, I dug up an article about it. It's Hungarian, so I'll just try to interpret the content properly, but if anyone wants the source nevertheless, I'm willing to post it.
According to the New Testament, he did have a choice. And his choice was to betray his master.
Jesus was destined to die, and he knew it well.
He came to Earth as the perfect sacrifice to compensate all sins, and show an example with His human life.
He had many enemies, who were planning to kill him for quite a while.
Judas's betrayal wasn't a necessary part of the plan. But he was a thief, he was greedy, and stopped believing in their cause (if he ever did). He was the one that could be manipulated by the devil.
To the idea that he was destined to go to hell: not really. He realized the wrong he had done, but saw no other way out of his situation but to kill himself.
There is another apostle: Peter, who betrayed Him three times too, although he never thought he would such. He was also in a bad situation, all seemed lost to him. But he never committed suicide, so he could, and wanted to be forgiven.
The message of the New Testament is that there is forgiveness for anything you ever did, but only if you want it, and ask it.
According to the New Testament, he did have a choice. And his choice was to betray his master.
Jesus was destined to die, and he knew it well.
He came to Earth as the perfect sacrifice to compensate all sins, and show an example with His human life.
He had many enemies, who were planning to kill him for quite a while.
Judas's betrayal wasn't a necessary part of the plan. But he was a thief, he was greedy, and stopped believing in their cause (if he ever did). He was the one that could be manipulated by the devil.
To the idea that he was destined to go to hell: not really. He realized the wrong he had done, but saw no other way out of his situation but to kill himself.
There is another apostle: Peter, who betrayed Him three times too, although he never thought he would such. He was also in a bad situation, all seemed lost to him. But he never committed suicide, so he could, and wanted to be forgiven.
The message of the New Testament is that there is forgiveness for anything you ever did, but only if you want it, and ask it.
Depending on what bible you choose, you will have different versions. However, from what I've read Judas was the most trusted by Jesus, enough so that he was the money lender/tresureror of the group. So I call foul on the theif/bad guy motif.
However, the point remains that the argument will be around long after we are dead.
However, the point remains that the argument will be around long after we are dead.
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Skullkracker
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another reference to the book of Judas...hmmm...I really have to fill you in on some more info, as soon as I have some translation time...
Last edited by Skullkracker on Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A few Scripture verses to answer the question about free will. We do not have a free will, our will is in bondage to sin. It is only through repentance and faith in the grace of God displayed in the death and resurrection in His Son Jesus Christ that He saves.
Psalm 14:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God "
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
Isiaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Romans 3:10-12
as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
(btw, all caps from NASB version)
Here are a couple verses about Judas (NASB):
John 13:18
I do not speak of all of you I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'
Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Matthew 26:47-56
While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him." Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him. And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
Psalm 14:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God "
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
Isiaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Romans 3:10-12
as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
(btw, all caps from NASB version)
Here are a couple verses about Judas (NASB):
John 13:18
I do not speak of all of you I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'
Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Matthew 26:47-56
While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him." Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him. And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
Last edited by nd403 on Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Killfile
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Just to be clear here, NB403 seems to be addressing this from a strictly Biblical point of view, which makes a great deal of sense given that the Bible remains the central and authoritative source on the nature of God in the Christian tradition (which is, after all, what we're talking about).
I'll just reiterate, however, what others have pointed out - which is that the modern Christian Bible is, even today, by no means uniform and has a fractious history. The council of Nicaea arrived at some semblance of the modern Bible in 325 AD - almost 300 years after the Crucifixion.
Over the course of the next thousand years or so, the Catholic church got to modify, edit, and generally mess with the Bible with little oversight or historic record. Martin Luther's (in)famous reformation of course changed much of that - but the integrity and authenticity of our modern Bible remains, to a great degree, a matter of faith.
I'll just reiterate, however, what others have pointed out - which is that the modern Christian Bible is, even today, by no means uniform and has a fractious history. The council of Nicaea arrived at some semblance of the modern Bible in 325 AD - almost 300 years after the Crucifixion.
Over the course of the next thousand years or so, the Catholic church got to modify, edit, and generally mess with the Bible with little oversight or historic record. Martin Luther's (in)famous reformation of course changed much of that - but the integrity and authenticity of our modern Bible remains, to a great degree, a matter of faith.
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Skullkracker
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'till then, you could just go and check wikipediaSkullkracker wrote:another reference to the book of Judas...hmmm...I really have to fill you in on some more info, as soon as I have some translation time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_judas
You can't just blame it all on the gnostics, around that time there was a lot of debate on the words of the scripture and just because particular branches of christianity where wiped out during wars, schisms and whatnot doesn't mean that their views weren't as valid because they didn't make it into current orthodox theory - there were many different people translating and putting together the texts out there at the time.
The Nestorians (even though Socrates rubbished them) believed in the separation of both representations of Christ, with Logos the divine not personally related but rather "a union of things diverse in close relation" and that of Christ as man. Similar to Arius (256 A.D.) whom believed the Logos was changeable in essence but not in will (when the church was still debating the specific meanings of scripture). The Nestorian church had spread from the Black Sea to the Yangtze River and from Siberia to Sri Lanka. After Constantinople ceased being Constantinople and changed to Islam in the 1300s they were pretty much wiped out. If they'd still survived it would be pretty interesting to see how the current orthordoxy would be reconciled.
The Nestorians (even though Socrates rubbished them) believed in the separation of both representations of Christ, with Logos the divine not personally related but rather "a union of things diverse in close relation" and that of Christ as man. Similar to Arius (256 A.D.) whom believed the Logos was changeable in essence but not in will (when the church was still debating the specific meanings of scripture). The Nestorian church had spread from the Black Sea to the Yangtze River and from Siberia to Sri Lanka. After Constantinople ceased being Constantinople and changed to Islam in the 1300s they were pretty much wiped out. If they'd still survived it would be pretty interesting to see how the current orthordoxy would be reconciled.