Evil Genius

[spoiler]The ending was a little vague with just a little room to say Lelouch is still alive. It would've been a better ending if their was some finality to it, but the creators probably want enough wriggle room to justify Lelouch coming back in another Geass if they saw fit.[/spoiler]

The piano teardrop after the strike got a sniffle out of me.

Damn it really was over with this season

[spoiler]Ok so in the end when CC was saying that the power of Geass brought solitude to the person with the power, she was directing the sentence to Lelouch or was thinking out loud.
Could it be that Lelouch is immortal since that seems to be the case if you have the power long enough?[/spoiler]

I really hate having to use spoiler tags as a medium for our conversation, but:

[spoiler]It depends on what we think Lelouch's character is like. On one hand, he may have attained immortality from his father Charles, and survived his public execution. On the other, Lelouch might've believed that he could only atone for his crimes by dying, and of course did not attain immortality. Would Lelouch's character be satisfied with unifying the world through his death, and not feel guilty by living on? He could believe that having a simple life with CC, and never striving for power ever again may be a fair compromise for everything that he has done. I wouldn't fault him for wanting to live, and it wouldn't be the first time he's put on a show to fool his audience to achieve an end.

On the opposite end, I agree with Starnum that while it's bittersweet, Lelouch dying would wrap everything up nicely. Lelouch taking upon himself all of the hatred in the world with his death, thereby ridding the world of strife is a fitting end for an anime prominent with strife and the vengence. Though I do feel for CC having to live on forever without him, sometimes it's just better that way. (Fate/Stay Night?! )

Lelouch surviving would cheapen that image, and bring everything he's said into question. If the producers really did intend R2 to be the final Geass, then why did they leave the ending open-ended and vague. They could be pandering to both sides of the fence, or they might be leaving themselves just enough room to change their minds if the demand and profit for a 3rd season is high enough. Perhaps we'll have a more reserved, and down to Earth Lelouch in the 3rd season (Strike Freedom!?) We'll know for sure in a year or so.[/spoiler]

Artezul wrote:I really hate having to use spoiler tags as a medium for our conversation, but:

[spoiler]It depends on what we think Lelouch's character is like. On one hand, he may have attained immortality from his father Charles, and survived his public execution. On the other, Lelouch might've believed that he could only atone for his crimes by dying, and of course did not attain immortality. Would Lelouch's character be satisfied with unifying the world through his death, and not feel guilty by living on? He could believe that having a simple life with CC, and never striving for power ever again may be a fair compromise for everything that he has done. I wouldn't fault him for wanting to live, and it wouldn't be the first time he's put on a show to fool his audience to achieve an end.

On the opposite end, I agree with Starnum that while it's bittersweet, Lelouch dying would wrap everything up nicely. Lelouch taking upon himself all of the hatred in the world with his death, thereby ridding the world of strife is a fitting end for an anime prominent with strife and the vengence. Though I do feel for CC having to live on forever without him, sometimes it's just better that way. (Fate/Stay Night?! )

Lelouch surviving would cheapen that image, and bring everything he's said into question. If the producers really did intend R2 to be the final Geass, then why did they leave the ending open-ended and vague. They could be pandering to both sides of the fence, or they might be leaving themselves just enough room to change their minds if the demand and profit for a 3rd season is high enough. Perhaps we'll have a more reserved, and down to Earth Lelouch in the 3rd season (Strike Freedom!?) We'll know for sure in a year or so.[/spoiler]

Well as for the spoiler tags, we can stop using them after a while when everyone should be rightfully caught up, or else they read the thread at their own expense. However the end is still fresh so spoiler tags it is for now.

[spoiler]As for the ending, I didn't really think it was terribly vague. I mean sure, you could definitely argue that Lelouch could have gained immortality like Charles had, and thus it was all an act and he survived on somewhere. However, I see no reason for this series to continue. I think it was a fitting end, and if anything, they just decided to leave it open to inference for the viewer's sake. Maybe some people want to believe that Lelouch survived, nothing wrong with that. However, I prefer to see it how it was depicted, as you said, it was so bitter sweet after all.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I would've been satisfied to leave it at Lelouch dying for the greater good, but the one thing that stuck to me is Jeremiah going along with the plan to kill Lelouch so easily. Maybe he's the type to accept whatever it is his Lord wishes to do, but I can't believe that Jeremiah would go through with it unless if he knew Lelouch had some contingency.

If their were a 3rd season, my bet would be that it would be someone discovering (somehow) that donning a Zero costume gives them control over Schnizel.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I was also wondering how come Jeremiah didnt start to cry that Lelouch was going to die.
Suzaku is going to be the new leader, does he even fit for that job? [/spoiler]

I haven't read this thread on purpose to avoid spoilers. Now I'm at the 15th episode of R2, and damn...
[spoiler]I totally did not see Shirley's death coming. When Rolo stopped time and we saw the mask falling down I still thought "Yeah he's gonna stab her, but Lelouch will come in time to rescue her"... damn I was wrong. And confessing all her love on her deathbed - one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time. I just hope Lelouch will will Rolo in the worst way possible.[/spoiler]
Probably gonna watch 15-25 all in one go today. But as all the great series, there should have been so much more episodes to enjoy

Watched the last 10 episodes of R2 yesterday in one session, and damn! It's over

But that has to be one of the most brilliantly orchestrated, mindboggingly awesome endings I have ever witnessed! For the last few episodes I was torn apart on which "Hero" I should believe to be good, who was the real bad guy, and what the hell Lelouch was trying to accomplish.
[spoiler]Let me reconstruct my thoughts:
"WTF the emperor doesn't seem like SUCH a bad guy, at least he has some good intention, and Marianne is still alive somehow too?"
"Oh noes the emperor is trying to pull an Evangelion and make mankind one! Fuck him!"
"Yay Lelouch is the new Emperor, hes gonna be a kind ruler!"
"WTF is Lelouch doing making slaves out of his soldiers, and why is Suzaku with him?"
"Yay he wants to join the United Federations!"
"WTF this was all just a coup d'etat to make the Black Knights and the Federation his hostaged basically?"
"Hmm as I though for the whole series, that Schneizel guy seems decent, he should be emperor."
"WTF Schneizel is just as evil as all the others! But suddenly Cornelia seems nice."
"Are there only bad guys here?"

And then when the new Zero appeared at the very end, I already thought, well they are gonna go for the cheap cliffhanger-like ending where nothing has really changed, Lelouch is just like the old Emperor and a new Zero has appeared to oppose him, so they show us that nothing really changed and everything is futile.

But FUCK! All that was orchestrated by the mastermind, so mankind would have one common enemy that could be killed by the new Hero of Justice? Absolutely brilliant! And Lelouch was decent after all, although he sacrificed a fucking lot of people, in the end it was for the greater good. And him dying as the bad guy with only Suzaku knowing his real intentions... kinda makes Lelouch the tragic hero like in greek sagas.

And I think Lelouch really died, he wasn't immortal. But CC was seen more than one time in the series speaking to non-existant persons as if in a discussion. I believe those were the souls from the world of CC. So if Lelouch is there, he can still kinda be with CC so neither he or she is really alone.[/spoiler]

Damn, it' over

On a sidenote: There was a commercial for a Lucky Star OVA in one of the last episodes, damn I gotta get that!

Edit: Just found something on another forum about the last episodes, which makes a lot of sense:

[spoiler]

“Alright, it seems that the last episodewas pretty complex and out of most of the people I’ve talked to, a lot of people don’t seems to get it. I’m going to tie up all the lose ends with this post.
The Code is the power of immortality, which C.C. has. The 98th Emperor of Britannia, Charles, has the Code. He transferred the Code to Lelouch while strangling him in episode 21. Lelouch wanted this, and he deliberately told Suzaku to not interfere.
However, the Code does not activate unless receiver dies first. This is shown when the nun kills C.C. after transferring the Code to her. Charle’s Code activated when he shot himself. Here is one of the big misconceptions that most people have: The transfer of the Code does not involve death of the transferrer. The nun was crazy and killed herself after she transferred her code. VV was injured from the battle and died. So basically, after episode 21, Lelouch had Charle’s Code (inactivated) and C.C’s contracted Geass.
When Lelouch got stabbed by Zero/Suzaku at the end, his Code was activated. What supports this is that Nunnally got Lelouch’s memories when she touched her, just like Lelouch did when he touched C.C. back in Narita. The only way this could have happened is his Code activating. This pretty much confirms that he has the Code.
Unlike C.C., and Charles, who lost their Geasses because the people who contracted them died, Lelouch didn’t obtain C.C.’s Code and thus kept his Geass, while having the Code (which he obtained from Charles at the same time). Lelouch therefore has achieved CODE GEASS.
Basically, Lelouch is the person driving the cart in the last scene. He, who is now immortal, travels the brand new world he has created together with the also immortal C.C. C.C. talks to Lelouch in the end by saying: “Geass is the power of kings, it will isolate you… well, I guess thats a little wrong… eh, Lelouch?”
Now comes the second big misconception. A lot of people say C.C. was just talking to the dead like with Marianne, that’s not true. She could only talk to her because of the nature of her Geass which allowed her to implant herself into the “hearts” of others. That’s how she was able to talk with Marianne. Lelouch’s Geass was entirely different, meaning that she could only have spoken to him if he was there. Also, the fact that the cart driver is masking his features completely supports this fact, considering the fact that Lelouch is now considered dead.”

After thinking about this, it seems really logic.[/spoiler]

Hehe, I knew it
Who´s the champ

Starnum wrote:Yep, it was an awesome ending. As for what that guy from the other forum said, it's entirely possible, but it still sounds like nothing more than speculation to me. It could be true, but there's really no way of knowing. I think it kind of takes away from the power of the ending if it's true, but maybe that's really what the author intended. I still believe that it's more open-ended than that though. The author left it up to your interpretation. So I say believe it ended however you like, there's really nothing wrong with drawing your own conclusions. Sometimes that's the point to those types of endings, and I've always kind of liked that, as long as they weren't too vague, which this ending wasn't. It was done very well, IMO. There's really no way to prove or disprove it either way though.

Yeah that thing is just another interpretation. Mine was that Lelouch is now in the World of C, still communicating with CC so she isn't alone and can smile. But I actually like that guys interpretation better, if only because it means Lelouch and CC are together now

Starnum wrote:
So Aether, what'd you think about how things played out with Rolo? I felt the exact same way as you did, especially after what happened with Shirley. However, after I saw how things actually went down with Rolo, I don't know, I was kind of torn. I guess I wouldn't really change it. The story was very well written, IMO. There were times when I hated several of the characters, such as Nina, and even Jeremiah. However, by the end, I didn't really harbor anymore resentment for any of the characters. With all the twists and turns, this has definitely become one of my favorite anime series. Heh, and the cool mecha really helped out to, as always.

Yeah, was pretty much the same for me. After what happend with Shirley I really tried to hate him. But his final scene was really powerful and moving, telling us how he was nothing more than a tool to everyone before him, without having any free will to do his liking. In his last moments he did what he never did before, and pretty much achieved his dream with it: Doing something out of his own free will, and saving probably the only person he ever was close to with it.

That alone pretty much redeemed him in my eyes. After all he was just a misguided and abused child. And it's not like Lelouch didn't kill in cold blood when it was for the better of his plan - only didn't we get to know most of the character that died.

Concerning the ending, I concur with you. After all there didn't seem to be any character that were ONLY good, or ONLY evil, but everyone was basically a shade of grey. Although for most of the series it looked like Zero = good and Emperor = evil. But even the emperor had good intention, even if his way of doing things was wrong. Really one of the best, and I'd personally say THE BEST, written series ever.

One last thing about the mecha: Yeah the fights were really cool and dynamic, but there were also 2 or 3 Deus Ex Machina moments involving them. Like when the Black Knights tried to hide with their flagship in the chinese mausloleum only to get bombarded. There was basically no way out. Then out of nowhere comes Lelouchs new Knightmare (the upgraded Gawain I think?) and blocks every incoming missile with his uber-shield. Other than those few moments, the Knightmares were awesome.