Evil Genius

EnglishJim wrote:What did the "old" party ever contribute that puts them leagues above the "new" one?

I don't agree with Femto (not 100% anyway), but the simply fact that I wouldn't care if anyone of them died, in contrast with the old Band of the Hawk, is pretty obvious to me

What I think is happening is that Berserk is not moving in the same pace as it did in the past, but it's far from bad. In fact, it's the only great manga I'm reading at the moment... (I'm also buying Crying Freeman - good - and Lodoss - which I'm regretting now).

I really have high hopes that Miura will change the pace, and moves the dynamic a bit, but the time between the chapters don't really help the situation...

If you dont know what the difference beteween the Hawks and the new band is then i must wonder do you even remember Berserk from vol 1 till they died....


That band was full of interesting people that you really cared for.


The new band is boring cause even Miura doesnt care enough about them to make them interesing it seems.

EnglishJim wrote:That's a pretty ignorant statement right there. The character development has been subtle, yes, perhaps we've seen the biggest changes in Farnese. She's become a lot less dependant and shown greater maturity over the past few volumes. It isn't like the story has frozen either. Griffith has just realised some highly significant goals on the path to his dream, as you yourself pointed out.

And?

Or was that it?

Yeah, I think that's pretty much it.

EnglishJim wrote:What did the "old" party ever contribute that puts them leagues above the "new" one?

At what point did I mention the old party?

But yeah, I'll play along.

They're far better than the current one.

No contest.

Has been discussed millions of times before.

there has been a lot more character development for the current crew than there was for pretty much the whole old band of the hawks (minus the ones still here). but the thing is the others seemed more likable. I think it may just be that this new group is replacing the old one, so i think that there is some resentment towards them.

Hehe what character development?


Do you see being in awe of Guts in fights and just standing there while he goes berserk character devlopment?

Atleast Farnese and Serpico you got to know alittle a time ago. But none of arent in the story as the hawks were so you dont care for them. Have they even talked to Guts even once without being in the middle of a fight.....

MrFelony wrote:there has been a lot more character development for the current crew than there was for pretty much the whole old band of the hawks (minus the ones still here). but the thing is the others seemed more likable. I think it may just be that this new group is replacing the old one, so i think that there is some resentment towards them.

The new party is just absolutely cliched and largely boring.

Ishidoro is Yahiko from Kenshin and Shierke is *insert name of insecure girl from anime X.*

Farnese is just a boring character, plain and simple.

Serpico is probably the best of the bunch but not by far.

Am I missing somebody?

I have no idea.

Not memorable characters at all.

And enough time passed since the Hawks died up to the point when we first start to see the new characters for us to get over them.

PS: At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this.

That's pretty neat.

Sometimes Femto you have your uses.


I wanna say WORD!!



I cant believe there are people comparing the hawks to the new band...... The Hawks made you love Berserk, this band made you say "man is this really Berserk and not some generic fantasy".....


Serpico decent.


The rest i dont even feel enough for them to think they are lame, thats how much you feel for them.....

Actually they are the biggest reason im not reading Berserk right now not the slow story.

Hey Libaax.

You and me, man.

We're on the same wavelength on this subject.

Cheers.

I think what i meant, but didnt get accross, is attempt at character development. How long has miura devoted to giving us backstory about farnese and serpico? he's devoted much more time to just them than any of the old band outside of those who are still alive. I'm not saying it's effective in getting the readers to become more attached to the new crew, i'm just saying he's spent a lot more time trying to develop them than he did previously.

EDIT: i would have to agree with libaax that it's because this just seems like a more generic fantasy in some aspects.

Femto wrote:And? Or was that it? Yeah, I think that's pretty much it.

That was all that was needed. My point was that there has been character development and plot progression where you said there was none. Point proved.

Libaax wrote:I cant believe there are people comparing the hawks to the new band...... The Hawks made you love Berserk, this band made you say "man is this really Berserk and not some generic fantasy".....

No. The Guts, Griffith, and Caska triangle is what made you love Berserk, and ultimately, their interaction (esp. between Guts and Caska) is what made the Golden Age arc such a joy to read. As much as I loved the Hawks, their characters didn't have that much depth. In comparison, Guts' "new" companions have been expanded on and figure more prominently in the story. Some people just seem to have biased views, which makes what Felony said all the more apparent. Purely because the Hawks were the originals, they tend to be favoured, and that holds true for many things in life.

The bottom line is this: Berserk is still a great read. I'll admit, the plot is more drawn out and that the rate of releases isn't helping things, but it's far from "jumped the shark".

EnglishJim wrote:That was all that was needed. My point was that there has been character development and plot progression where you said there was none. Point proved.

lol

OK.

You're terrible at arguing.

Good night.

Oh well.

Good night.

Femto wrote:

MrFelony wrote:there has been a lot more character development for the current crew than there was for pretty much the whole old band of the hawks (minus the ones still here). but the thing is the others seemed more likable. I think it may just be that this new group is replacing the old one, so i think that there is some resentment towards them.

The new party is just absolutely cliched and largely boring.

Ishidoro is Yahiko from Kenshin and Shierke is *insert name of insecure girl from anime X.*

Farnese is just a boring character, plain and simple.

Serpico is probably the best of the bunch but not by far.

Am I missing somebody?

I have no idea.

Not memorable characters at all.

And enough time passed since the Hawks died up to the point when we first start to see the new characters for us to get over them.

PS: At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this.

That's pretty neat.

Very yes. But then again, those more knowledgeable than I argue that one of Miura's greatest strengths is his handling of animu ^_^ clichés. All supporting characters still have a chance to re-define their own stereotype, if they have not already broken the bonds of cliché in more subtle ways.

LordMune wrote:Very yes. But then again, those more knowledgeable than I argue that one of Miura's greatest strengths is his handling of animu ^_^ clichés. All supporting characters still have a chance to re-define their own stereotype, if they have not already broken the bonds of cliché in more subtle ways.

The problem is that, at this point, I have completely lost interest in these characters and wherever they may be headed.

That's the risk in having slow and shoddy storytelling.

Femto wrote:

LordMune wrote:Very yes. But then again, those more knowledgeable than I argue that one of Miura's greatest strengths is his handling of animu ^_^ clichés. All supporting characters still have a chance to re-define their own stereotype, if they have not already broken the bonds of cliché in more subtle ways.

The problem is that, at this point, I have completely lost interest in these characters and wherever they may be headed.

That's the risk in having slow and shoddy storytelling.

Certainly. Albeit calling the storytelling "shoddy" might be pushing it. Slow, yes, and the narrative is certainly not as tight as it used to be, but it's not shoddy. That's what we have shounen manga for.

EnglishJim wrote:

Femto wrote:And? Or was that it? Yeah, I think that's pretty much it.

That was all that was needed. My point was that there has been character development and plot progression where you said there was none. Point proved.

Libaax wrote:I cant believe there are people comparing the hawks to the new band...... The Hawks made you love Berserk, this band made you say "man is this really Berserk and not some generic fantasy".....

No. The Guts, Griffith, and Caska triangle is what made you love Berserk, and ultimately, their interaction (esp. between Guts and Caska) is what made the Golden Age arc such a joy to read. As much as I loved the Hawks, their characters didn't have that much depth. In comparison, Guts' "new" companions have been expanded on and figure more prominently in the story. Some people just seem to have biased views, which makes what Felony said all the more apparent. Purely because the Hawks were the originals, they tend to be favoured, and that holds true for many things in life.

The bottom line is this: Berserk is still a great read. I'll admit, the plot is more drawn out and that the rate of releases isn't helping things, but it's far from "jumped the shark".

Caska is a Hawk Sure Griffith,Guts and her was the big characters but they wouldnt be as interesting if they didnt have that crew behind them.

They were a great supporting cast. Sure individually they didnt alot of devlopment but they were important at shaping early Berserk.

They were interesting than Serpico,Farnese and co will ever be. Despite they have a big role these days.


Farnese,Serpico and co sure had alot development when they were new but storywise they are usless. They dont mean anything to Guts. Sure they are suppose to be friends but not really. They just hang around him. They didnt make Guts change as The hawks did. Which is why i adore the hawks. There were truly his friends and you saw him change when he was with them.

Libaax wrote:They didnt make Guts change as The hawks did.

That's a really interesting point.

The Hawks helped Guts develop as a character whereas the current cast is being developed via Guts' character.

You pull Guts out of the new cast and they'd probably fall apart.

have you read the manga at all? look at how Guts is changing because of them. he's developing as a leader of a group and has come to realize that he IS dependant on other people such as farnese. I'm conviced that you haven't actually read the last 20 chapters. also I'm SURE the relationship being developed between Guts and shierke means nothing and hasnt changed him a bit.

I have read up 282.


Of course Guts is a leader, you think they would let Serpico lead them?

Guts has been a leader for a long time. He was a commander for the hawks.

MrFelony wrote:have you read the manga at all? look at how Guts is changing because of them. he's developing as a leader of a group and has come to realize that he IS dependant on other people such as farnese. I'm conviced that you haven't actually read the last 20 chapters. also I'm SURE the relationship being developed between Guts and shierke means nothing and hasnt changed him a bit.

He was leader of the Hawk Raiders long before Griffith became the antagonist in the story.

I'm convinced that you haven't actually read the first 13 volumes.

compare the current guts and the guts during his black swordsman days and tell me he hasn't developed. I'm not saying that the old group didnt change him, they did. we saw how he developed and began to be a part of the group and how he cared for the hawks raiders. but he has developed because of this new group.

Well, I don't completely agree with Femto, I still read Berserk, but I do have problem with plenty of things in new chapters. I think first 16 volumes were absolutely awesome, it went a bit downhill from there, but the real decline started around volume 24 (with introduction of Schierke). I do think that berserk is still great, but it used to be better. Here are my main problems with new chapters:

-Guts' new crew: Let's face it, the only really cool new character is Serpico. Isidoro is a total waste of paper, Farenze is only good as Serpico's motivation for joining Guts, and Schierke is well... as Femto said just another insecure manga chick. I do support idea of spelcaster joining Guts, we need someone with good knowledge of supernatural to explain stuff, but it could have been done much better. Schierke still has her moments here and there, I like when she got carried away and nearly drowned that village, I kind of like the idea of having incomprehensible power in such a small package, but Shierke is just not intriguing enough to truly shine.

- decline of Puck. Puck used to be a really well written character in first 3 volumes, and now he is just a dumb comic relief. Remember Puck's speech in volume 3, when he addressed that apostle count, or what he said to Guts in volume 2. Fortunately there's elfiem soon, so this will be fixed.

-Guts appearance: Guts just looked a lot cooler before. Compare Guts' face from Golden Age to what we have now. He used to look sharp like a badass warrior, now he just looks like a dumb brute. Guts was drawn completely differently in volumes 1-3, but even that version looked a lot cooler than this.

-Berserker armor design. I like the idea of Guts having a powerup, but the shape of that berserk armor is just ridiculous, I like it's Skull Knight form, but then it transformed into something that looks like poorly drawn Dinosaur. Basically a t-rex head put on human body.

-about art: new art has way more details than it used to have, but earlier art had better design. I have already mentioned Berserk armor design. Also, Some of Griffith's apostles look cool indeed, others just look ridiculous.

-story is a bit slow, golden age still has by far the best story. Also the whole justification for a story is a bit lame. The whole crew is going to some elf island just to make Casca sane again. Well, I can see Guts and Casca going alone, but why would anyone else risk so much for someone else's chick? Yes, every single member of Guts team has this or that personal reason for following Guts (Isidoro wants to become perfect swordsman, Schierke thinks that Guts is her destiny, Farenze sees Guts as the only righteous guy out there, Serpico is there because of Farenze) but there is no big objective that binds them. What we need instead is a dedicated group of wizards and warriors that saw trough Griffith's disguise and want to bring him down, and Guts can lead them. Perhaps even some sort of pagan secret order working in shadows, linked to Skull Knight. As Femto said, this group would just fall apart without Guts. It's been like 18 volumes since eclipse and Guts and Skull Knight are still ONLY characters in entire story who are serious about destroying God Hand.

Despite all this Berserk is still one of the best things out there, it just lost that wow factor that it used to have. Sorry for my bad English.

Anyway, let me know if Skull Knight or a member of the God Hand makes a worthwhile appearance sometime on the future.

So this whole thread is that "Berserk doesn't hold up and is dragging on"? Well duh,look at TV shows like Lost or games like that just won't end. Anything that tries to be serious after a while has this problem and start becoming a joke. But comedy lives forever!

Libaax wrote:Farnese,Serpico and co sure had alot development when they were new but storywise they are usless. They dont mean anything to Guts. Sure they are suppose to be friends but not really. They just hang around him. They didnt make Guts change as The hawks did. Which is why i adore the hawks. There were truly his friends and you saw him change when he was with them.

The Hawks had a hand in bringing Guts out of his shell, but it was Griffith that changed him. It was Griffith he wanted to change for.

The truth is, the two bands are quite comparable, but what I can say is that Guts is certainly more dependant on Schierke, Serpico, etc., than he ever was with Judeau, Pippin, etc. It isn't only about babysitting Caska, Guts himself would be dead many times over were it not for their efforts. His journey would be aimless and futile if he went alone, as seen in those two years after the Eclipse. Also, despite what you think, Guts DOES care for them in his own way. When they first met he didn't want the company, but he now goes out of his way to protect and keep them together as a group, and that in itself is character development.

Would they fall apart if Guts was removed from the group? What, like the Hawks did when Griffith was imprisoned? The reason they have gathered is Guts, just as the Hawks assembled because of Griffith. They've placed their ambitions/destinies on his shoulders, and in turn, Guts has come to rely upon them. They're just nowhere near as insignificant and dispensable as certain people are making them out to be.