Volume 13's Lost Chapter Remains Lost

[Sandman]

I biggest point that I got from the lost chapter was that Idea has a form and it is an "evil" Looking thing... what I want to see is Scherike in astral form fuck that "God" of evil Up

[Istvan]

I'm pretty sure that the astral power of Idea vastly more powerful then anything Schirke can cast. Personally, I doubt even the four elemental kings could make much of an impression on Idea. After all, no witch (or wizard, or whatever) can even get close to the area in which Idea dwells, and we know that the deeper in the abyss something is, the more powerful that being is. Schierke would be like a single ant trying to destroy a mountain.

[Aeriel]

Since I've totally forgot that any 'lost chapter' exists, I rushed to find it (via that beautiful search button up there) after seeing this thread.
I was pretty shocked when I saw that I actually managed to download it on my own! It took me bloody 30 minutes, but I succeeded!

I guess there have been tons of discussions on this chapter, so feel free to flame me for asking these things here:
1) Is it me or does the Idea look like a giant heart?
2) If he is the Idea of Evil, can it be that there is an Idea of Good?
3) As Idea is self-declared evil why does he say "your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole. May they bring pain or salvation to mankind"? If he is evil, why would he want to bring salvation to mankind? If he is God, how come he doesn't know what will be of the two (or he knows, and just doesn't want to tell Griffit...)?

[MrFelony]

the reason why i think muira took that out is because he was going to change around the Idea of Evil. i've always saw a struggle between the part of humanity that desires a reason for the evil that happens to them, but there is also the part of humanity that desires to be saved and for good to win.

thats why i've always thought that there is some conflicting force out there, and in part why i believe that the story plot of griffith being a good ruler (the white hawk) and guts, if/when he kills him, being the bad guy (the black hawk) woudl be such an awesome twist, since most people aren't really expecting/rooting for that.

[Azrael]

Since I've totally forgot that any 'lost chapter' exists, I rushed to find it (via that beautiful search button up there) after seeing this thread.
I was pretty shocked when I saw that I actually managed to download it on my own! It took me bloody 30 minutes, but I succeeded!

I guess there have been tons of discussions on this chapter, so feel free to flame me for asking these things here:
1) Is it me or does the Idea look like a giant heart?
2) If he is the Idea of Evil, can it be that there is an Idea of Good?
3) As Idea is self-declared evil why does he say "your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole. May they bring pain or salvation to mankind"? If he is evil, why would he want to bring salvation to mankind? If he is God, how come he doesn't know what will be of the two (or he knows, and just doesn't want to tell Griffit...)?

1 - Yeah, he's a heart. He says "what you are seeing is a part of me. The core."
2 - eh, I'd like to think not. The lines between good and evil are thinly drawn, and I don't think the story is focued on those lines. He's the reason for suffering, a man-made reason. And the reason for suffering must be evil, right? it's just a label. This isn't about good and evil - it's just about surviving, and just finding your place in the world. Oh, and revenge - lots of that. That's what I've taken from the manga, at least.
3 - Again, not really evil. And he doesn't know, there's isn't some strand of Fate that determines Griffith's actions. The history of the world was written by causality. He is the "chosen one", that is why his actions will determine the fate (notice, lowercase here) of mankind. It can reall either go one way or the other, ya know?

[Istvan]

I guess there have been tons of discussions on this chapter, so feel free to flame me for asking these things here:
1) Is it me or does the Idea look like a giant heart?
2) If he is the Idea of Evil, can it be that there is an Idea of Good?
3) As Idea is self-declared evil why does he say "your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole. May they bring pain or salvation to mankind"? If he is evil, why would he want to bring salvation to mankind? If he is God, how come he doesn't know what will be of the two (or he knows, and just doesn't want to tell Griffit...)?

From previous discussions, (this is also in the FAQ) we've basically come to the conclusion that there is no "Idea of Good". Idea is it, and one of a kind. The basic reason for this is that Idea was created to provide people with reasons for the bad things that happen to them. Most people don't want a supernatural reason for the good things that happen to them, they just basically enjoy it.

As for Idea's declarations to Griffith, most people think that it's because Idea already knows how Griffith will act, having shaped every portion of Griffith's existence. The way Griffith will choose to act is the way Idea wants him to act, hence the only command needed is "do what you will". One large portion of the point behind the eclipse is to ensure that the chosen won't choose to do "good". Thus Idea's command to Griffith is entirely within rationality for the embodiment of evil.

[Sandman]

There my not be an Idea of Good but there is defenitly an oppisite to Griffith's Religion and that would be what ever the witches religion is... wiken is that it... anyway that seems to be the good and Griffith's is bad, he is bring darkness to the world and everyone will run to him for light and when they are all around him... bam!!! Out with his light and replace it with a black lite that show him for his true self the devil

[Starnum]

wiken is that it

Um, no, I don't think so.

[Aeriel]

From previous discussions, (this is also in the FAQ) we've basically come to the conclusion that there is no "Idea of Good". Idea is it, and one of a kind. The basic reason for this is that Idea was created to provide people with reasons for the bad things that happen to them. Most people don't want a supernatural reason for the good things that happen to them, they just basically enjoy it.

As for Idea's declarations to Griffith, most people think that it's because Idea already knows how Griffith will act, having shaped every portion of Griffith's existence. The way Griffith will choose to act is the way Idea wants him to act, hence the only command needed is "do what you will". One large portion of the point behind the eclipse is to ensure that the chosen won't choose to do "good". Thus Idea's command to Griffith is entirely within rationality for the embodiment of evil.

Wow!
Missed that part in FAQ obviously, but thanks for clarifying, now it all makes sense.

[Sandman]

wiken is that it

Um, no, I don't think so.

Wicken is a religion of nature right so... never mind I dont care that much anyway... Scherike is so cool she cant be labeled with religion

[psi29a]

wiken is that it

Um, no, I don't think so.

Wicken is a religion of nature right so... never mind I dont care that much anyway... Scherike is so cool she cant be labeled with religion

Wiccan:

Wicca is a Neopagan religion and a religious movement found in many different countries. It was first publicised in 1954 by a British civil servant named Gerald Gardner[1] after the British Witchcraft Act was repealed. He claimed that the religion, of which he was an initiate, was a modern survival of an old witch cult, which had existed in secret for hundreds of years, originating in the pre-Christian Paganism of Europe. Wicca is thus sometimes referred to as the Old Religion. The veracity of Gardner's claims cannot be independently proven, and it is thought that Wiccan theology began to be compiled no earlier than the 1920s. Various related Wiccan traditions have since evolved, or been adapted from, the form established by Gardner, which came to be called Gardnerian Wicca. These other traditions of Wicca each have distinctive beliefs, rituals, and practices. Many traditions of Wicca remain secretive and require that members be initiated. There is also a movement of Eclectic or Solitary Wiccans who do not believe that any doctrine or traditional initiation is necessary in order to practice Wicca.

What it says about Wiccan's beliefs in the elements:

The elements

The classical elements are a key feature of the Wiccan world-view. Every manifest force or form is seen to express one of the four archetypal elements — Earth, Air, Fire, and Water — or several in combination. This scheme is fundamentally identical with that employed in other Western Esoteric and Hermetic traditions, such as Theosophy and the Golden Dawn, which in turn were influenced by the Hindu system of tattvas.

There is no consensus as to the exact nature of these elements. Some hold to the ancient Greek conception of the elements corresponding to matter (earth) and energy (fire), with the mediating elements (water, air) relating to the phases of matter (fire/earth mixtures). Other exponents of the system add a fifth or quintessential element, spirit (aether, akasha).

The five points of the frequently worn pentagram symbolise, among other things, the four elements with spirit presiding at the top.[11] The pentagram is the symbol most commonly associated with Wicca in modern times. It is often circumscribed — depicted within a circle — and is usually (though not exclusively) shown with a single point upward. The inverse pentagram, with two points up, is a symbol of the second degree initiation rite of traditional Wicca.[12] In geometry, the pentagram is an elegant expression of the golden ratio phi which is popularly connected with ideal beauty and was considered by the Pythagoreans to express truths about the hidden nature of existence.

Each of the four cardinal elements (air, fire, water and earth) is typically assigned a direction, a color, and an elemental race. The following list shows a common categorisation, but different traditions of Wicca may use different "correspondences":

* Air: East, Yellow, Sylphs
* Fire: South, Red, Salamanders
* Water: West, Blue, Undines
* Earth: North, Green, Gnomes

Some variations in correspondences can be explained by geography or climate. It is common in the southern hemisphere, for example, to associate the element fire with north (the direction of the equator) and earth with south (the direction of the nearest polar area). Some Wiccan groups also modify the religious calendar to reflect local seasonal changes; for instance, most Southern Hemisphere covens celebrate Samhain on April 30th and Beltane on October 31st, reflecting the southern hemisphere's autumn and spring seasons.[13]

I have a few friends who practice it. Take from it what you will. You can see however the Miura has borrowed from a lot places, including Wicca (or the Old Religion): Sylphs and Undines are examples of this.

[Istvan]

There my not be an Idea of Good but there is defenitly an oppisite to Griffith's Religion and that would be what ever the witches religion is... wiken is that it... anyway that seems to be the good and Griffith's is bad, he is bring darkness to the world and everyone will run to him for light and when they are all around him... bam!!! Out with his light and replace it with a black lite that show him for his true self the devil

I wouldn't actually say that the witches in Berserk are of a religion opposed to Idea. As I understand it, the witches utilize spirits to create their magic, and these spirits are primarily born from human minds and beliefs. Idea is sort of the ultimate form of this, in the deepest parts of the vortex, where no witch can reach. So although individual witches may oppose Idea (or its servents) their religion as such doesn't seem to.

[Sandman]

Thanks for doing my research psi29a it is always Appreciated

and Istvan, I guess you could say that witches are opposed to the idea of humans not the manifistation of that Idea. I can say this because of the fight in Enock where she is talking about their religion and her spiritual beilfs.

[Istvan]

Witches are opposed to the way that humans are moving away from (and forgetting) the spiritual world, and especially they're opposed to the way the church has played a role in this. They're also opposed to the way most humans have turned their backs on nature. None of this has anything to do with Idea, however. Idea is just the reason for all of the evil and bad things in the world, and there would still be evil and bad things happening even if humans had never turned their back on the spirits and nature. Thus people would have wanted reason's for them, and so Idea would still exist. So you still can't really say that witches as a whole are automatically opposed to Idea.

[Shisho]

If it were removed as to remove it as legitimate to the story, then all our discussions about idea of evil have been fruitless. T_T

Dear god.

[Eldo]

If it were removed as to remove it as legitimate to the story, then all our discussions about idea of evil have been fruitless.

I have thought about that, actually. Maybe Miura plans to introduce Idea in a later story, because it revealed future plotlines and so forth. Or maybe he doesn't want to make it so that Guts will have to kill Idea, after wiping out the God Hands. However, that doesn't mean the removal of the chapter makes it removed from the plotline altogether.

[Starnum]

I thought about that too Shisho. Isn't it messed up? T.T

[Aeriel]

Well, a good mental exercise is never bad, right?

[Istvan]

True, but one likes to think that all of those endless discussions had at least some actual Berserk merit, as opposed to just random intellectual exercises. I mean, Psi actually criticized some people (most notably Pheonix) for speculating on things without any actual substence to back them up. It would be really disinheartning if it turns out that Miura decided to permenently remove that information from the story, and thus we are all guilty of the same thing.

[Aeriel]

Yes, but while that Phoenix guy did not have any real substance, as you say, we have a whole chapter. If Miura kicks it out, then we might have been doing the same things as Phoenix. Otherwise, we are doing something constructive.
We have a benefit of doubt.

[psi29a]

If you guys notice, in Tank releases some chapters are missing.

It depends on if you follow the literal chapter releases or the tank releases and which you think is considered to be 'canon'.

Seriously, I could make an analogy here of how and why the 'church' broke off into hundreds of factions.

There is a difference between discussing production material, and things that have no impact on the story nor substance worth all the time and energy to discuss. Especially so when it goes in circles and turns into one-up-manship that increases your post count and the need to 'feel right'.

Proof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Be ... a_episodes

Volume 30
256: Duel
257: Suzarain of the Ecclesiastical Authority
259: Demon Tiger
260: Intrusion
261: The Rusty Birdcage
262: A Declaration of War
263: Demon Beasts' Invasion
264: Divine Revelation
265: Demon Beasts' City (1)
266: Demon Beasts' City (2)

That is not a typo, 358 is not in the tank. It has become another lost chapter. There are 'more'.

[Aeriel]

May I ask you something psi29a? You seem to use Wikipedia a lot. But from what I've heard, it can sometimes contain inaccurate material, either because of an author's ignorance, or because of someone's malevolence. As such, it is often labeled just as a 'reference material', instead of a true encyclopedia. Now what I ask is, have you had any bad experiences with Wikipedia? I ask because I find my brother becoming more and more dependant on it (he uses it for his schoolwork), and I find my self in temptation to use Wikipedia exclusively.

Not trying to be smart here or anything, just asking for some advice

[psi29a]

I never quoted wikipedia in any of my scholarly work while at University nor do use it in any of my work related papers.

However, it is the FIRST place I go for information as I find the citations that they provide do link to scholarly works from which the information originated.

In this instance, the material was posted and edited by Skullknight.net , so feel free double check. If you read at the bottom, they cite directly to:
http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/mer ... index.html which has the same information.

However, I always cite Wired's article about takeing 20 random topics and researching them in both Wikipedia and Britanica. Their results indicate that Britannica had more erroneous entries than Wikipedia.

This is why don't cite from Encyclopedias in general, no matter what you field of study is or where you work. Unless you are an expert, try to get to the source.

However, I don't expect that level detail here. Berserk is fiction.

[Istvan]

Do we have any idea why these other chapters are being dropped? I mean, we can sort of speculate as to why Miura might have wanted to drop one chapter (with it gave too much info too soon being the most popular theory) but why are people other then Miura dropping chapters?

[Eldo]

Well, people consider it out of continuity because it was not included in the volume. No official reason was given (none that I know of) as to why it was removed, but we speculate that it was removed because it revealed too much. Perhaps it is removed from continuity, or perhaps not. Maybe Miura didn't want to introduce a concept at a scope way bigger than the God Hand; their source of power, so it doesn't lead to any loose ends when Guts finally defeat the God Hand.

Miura could have removed it so it fits better in the pacing of the volume, fitting the usual 10 chapters per volume. Perhaps he wants to reintroduce the concept later on, or there has been some readers that don't understand the concept (it rises more questions than answers). Who knows. I must confess, I was thoroughly confused when people started to talk about Idea for the first time. But it seemed to catch on with the fanbases now that it is considered an integral part of the story.