Street Fighter IV!!!!

[Femto]

Also, the differences between a 2D fighting game and a 3D fighting game are more than just what input is used to make your character jump.

Play King of Fighters 2000 and then try to play Maximum Impact.

Maximum Impact is a serious attempt at bringing 2D gameplay to a 3D fighting game but it still doesn't manage to shake that "I'm 3D" feeling when you play it.

It's hard to put your finger on what exactly it is but 2D fighting games and 3D fighting games just don't feel the same.

God, I love fighting games.

I hope Street Fighter IV, good or bad, brings with it a renaissance in the genre.

[Eldo]

I understand what you're saying, but in SFIV, the camera only turns when they're doing some kind of special move. Afterwards, the game continues in the same sidescrolling battle. They don't even use sidestepping at all. So the problem you mention, about a jump becoming a move in the Z-axis, can't happen because they don't use it that way.

To be honest, I don't really know much about the SFVI details, but I was addressing the initial argument of Femto and MadDogMike's. From what I've skimmed through, Femto mentioned that many people complained that 2D gameplay engine and integrate into the 3D environment (not graphics). MadMikeDog said that it has worked before, with various games (although he was primarily talking about 3D graphics engine). I just mentioned one limitation of why it wouldn't work if this instance was ever implemented. I don't really read anything that doesn't have much drama in it.

MadDogMike is not wrong in his argument, methinks, but he is talking to a different argument with Femto's.

Might I remind you, you are a moderator not a mediator.

Oh, that's right! Femto, you're fucking ugly. Now post back something so I can edit your post to agree with me.

[War Machine]

I'm starting to realize that might the problem here, that Street Fighter IV is attempting to be both at the same time.

That took you long enough.

Way to yield from a loosing argument though.

[Femto]

I'm starting to realize that might the problem here, that Street Fighter IV is attempting to be both at the same time.

That took you long enough.

Way to yield from a loosing argument though.

That actually has nothing to do with the argument at hand and is just my own personal pondering as to deeper issues that might exist within the concept of the game.

Of course, if you had any idea as to what this whole argument was actually about then you might've realized this.

But hey, go back to reading four lines out of forty and replying with two.

It'll get you far in life.

[Femto]

I've kicked so much ass in this thread.

The line I'm most proud of?

"It's like having apples and oranges and saying that an apple can taste like an orange if you eat an orange."

Hahaha.

Hardcore analogy right there.

I'm going to sleep now.

[Eldo]

OVer time there is only so much you can do with a 2-D fighting engine, before you can't evolve anymore without making shit a bunch of crazy animations.

Case in point:

http://au.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/s ... es;title;1

[War Machine]

I'm starting to realize that might the problem here, that Street Fighter IV is attempting to be both at the same time.

That took you long enough.

Way to yield from a loosing argument though.

That actually has nothing to do with the argument at hand and is just my own personal pondering as to deeper issues that might exist within the concept of the game.

Of course, if you had any idea as to what this whole argument is about then you might've realized this.

But hey, go back to reading four lines out of forty and replying with two.

It'll get you far in life.

This is a forum, not a job interview. Besides, you did exactly that one page back. MadDogMike wrote about 11 paragraphs and you replied with two lines.

[The Prince]

Now can you see how everything I said was relevant? Sheesh, how did this get so out of hand. Just call psi29a into here and ask for his opinion or something so we can get this over and done with.

- Though one point of confusion in your posts is: If you might please further explain how what the incentive of using a 3-D engine in a 2-D game would be. You say they are similar, but there has to be some difference for a 3-D engine to be used or why would it be used at all?

[MadDogMike]

Maximum Impact is a serious attempt at bringing 2D gameplay to a 3D fighting game but it still doesn't manage to shake that "I'm 3D" feeling when you play it.

It's hard to put your finger on what exactly it is but 2D fighting games and 3D fighting games just don't feel the same.

I still say that feeling a "difference" between 2D and 3D fighting games is an illusion created by what you're looking at. A bet a person could take the original Street Fighter 2 and just change the characters to be 3D models instead of sprites and people would still say that it feels different to Street Fighter 2.

It doesn't help that the only 3D fighting games to compare to 2D fighting games were made purposefully to have different gameplay to 2D fighting games. They're centered more on pre-set combo memorisation and slower gameplay which allows even people with average reflexes to be able to fight back with tactics. Not to mention most of the 3D fighting games have three attack types (high, medium, low) instead of just two (high, low) and many fighters feature different stances. Of course you feel that 3D fighting games can't still feel the same as 2D fighting game gameplay, barely anybody is interested in doing so and none of them have done it successfully yet.

P.S. Marvel vs Capcom 2 is a 2D fighting game in a 3D engine. Street Fighter IV is also a 2D fighting game in a 3D engine. If you are still trying to tell me that MvC2 is a 2D fighting game and SFIV is 3D fighting game, then why don't you define what makes a fighting game 2D or 3D. Is it:

a) The number of axes the gameplay occurs on
b) Whether the characters are 2D sprites or 3D models
c) Neither, it's a "style" of gameplay

P.P.S. Answer C directly contradicts what you've been saying about MvC2 being 2D and SFIV being 3D, because if you strip them both down to their cores they both have 2D fighting gameplay style.

[The Prince]

Of course you feel that 3D fighting games can't still feel the same as 2D fighting game gameplay, barely anybody is interested in doing so and none of them have done it successfully yet.

Why do you think that is?

And will we get to the point that we see 3-D engines purposely speed their combat, instead of slowing it down? Without sacrificing your sense of space and position in relation to your opponents moves (not so much as your opponent themself)?

I know in Dead or Alive they intentionally used increased speed in their gameplay, but in playing I felt more apt to button mash and spam pre-set combinations, rather than actually responding to my opponent. One thing I see as an advantage with 2-D fighters is that despite insane speeds, you can still react and even counter (maintaining strategic control) even during hectic close quarter exchanges.

Femto is definitely right in 2-D's having a different feel that doesn't translate into the current crop of 3-D games (for better or not), though its hard to put a finger on exactly what that is. But it seems you suggest that this is purposeful, then I'm curious to know why not take the best of both worlds.....Where perhaps it appears sf4 is making an attempt to but too afraid to step through the door.

P.P.S. Answer C directly contradicts what you've been saying about MvC2 being 2D and SFIV being 3D, because if you strip them both down to their cores they both have 2D fighting gameplay style.

Sorry for my naivete, but what the hell does the engine effect or determine, if it doesn't (necessarily) factor into the gameplay or mechanics of a game?

[Eldo]

I have to be honest, without the 'gameplay' or 'graphics' at the end of '2D' and '3D', I would get confused between the two of them. To reiterate:

Femto: Gameplay argument.

Do you understand that there is an inherent difference between a 2D fighting game and a 3D fighting game in gameplay?

MadMikeDog: Graphics argument.

What you also need to understand is that there are no inherent GAMEPLAY differences between 2D and 3D engines, the game's graphical engine is simply a method of drawing the graphics onto the screen.

You can see how they're two different topics. Femto, being the complete (and ugly) arsehole he is, can't be bothered to address MadMikeDog's argument into his own initially, so they're arguing about different topics and ending up nowhere and taunts fly around. Apples and pears here.

So, MadMikeDog is correct in his graphics argument. If SF4 was rendered in 3D graphics, there would not be any major discernible differences in gameplay if it was in 2D graphics. Maybe this argument would not be so correct back in the PS days where the hardware was not that great (as a result, slower paced gameplay or whatever) like with EX, but it does not apply now. MadMikeDog is spot on with this argument and I agree with him completely.

Games using 3D graphics engine in 2D gameplay:
Tekken 1 and 2
Street Fighter EX

Femto is also correct in his gameplay argument. Let's say if we transplant SF3's gameplay (and as a result, controls as well) onto Soulcalibur 3. It would not work that well because of one of the limitations I mentioned in my previous post. They are two different games, with two styles of gameplay. This is not about graphics rendering, it's about the gameplay engine. This was what Femto was addressing.

Games in 2D gameplay:
As above, plus the ones that are rendered in 2D graphics engine

Games in 3D gameplay:
Soulcalibur 2, 3, Tekken Tag (I think)

Both are 100% correct in their own way. A pear is a pear, and the apple is an apple. The problem is, MadMikeDog is holding a pear, and thinking that Femto is holding a pear as well, proceeds to tell him that a pear could taste delicious even if it's softened. Femto is holding an apple, and hears that when the fruit tastes delicious when it's softened, proceeds to blast him and call names. But in the end of the day, when you look at both arguments presented, they are both carrying different fruits, and they're both correct. The problem being is that Femto is a complete arsehole, and he doesn't go to the lengths to explain his position that clearly initially, leading to further confusion and arguments. Yes, his couple of sentences response to paragraphs do infuriate, which would definitely lead to more and more misunderstandings.

Now, I only check this thread as my source of news on SFVI, and take the opinions of you posters to keep myself updated. I don't read the articles posted that thoroughly because I have a very, very short attention span on things that I consider relatively boring in terms of the points I want to know. Usually I love my dose of drama, but it's absolutely not entertaining for my sake when I see that you have different opinions not on the same argument, but ON DIFFERENT ARGUMENTS ALTOGETHER. That's why I had to step in, not because it was getting heated, BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ARGUING ON THE SAME TOPIC.

[MadDogMike]

Of course you feel that 3D fighting games can't still feel the same as 2D fighting game gameplay, barely anybody is interested in doing so and none of them have done it successfully yet.

Why do you think that is?

Because Femto's example of that 3D King of Fighters game is the only example I can find of a company trying to reproduce a 2D fighting game entirely with 3D graphics, and as Femto said it wasn't done well. That isn't to say it can't be done, it's just natural that when moving to a different game engine there will be some hiccups.

There have also been a few original 3D fighting games on PC that have tried to do the same thing, but never received much recognition. There's one in particular that I've got in mind, I'm pretty sure that I first found out about it on this forum, but I can't remember the name of it for the life of me.

And will we get to the point that we see 3-D engines purposely speed their combat, instead of slowing it down? Without sacrificing your sense of space and position in relation to your opponents moves (not so much as your opponent themself)?

I know in Dead or Alive they intentionally used increased speed in their gameplay, but in playing I felt more apt to button mash and spam pre-set combinations, rather than actually responding to my opponent. One thing I see as an advantage with 2-D fighters is that despite insane speeds, you can still react and even counter (maintaining strategic control) even during hectic close quarter exchanges.

Femto is definitely right in 2-D's having a different feel that doesn't translate into the current crop of 3-D games (for better or not), though its hard to put a finger on exactly what that is.

Gameplay speed doesn't have anything to do with the game's 3D engine, that's just a choice that the game designers made.

The main reason that it's easy to react to such fast gameplay in 2D fighting games but not in Dead or Alive is because of two main reasons, in my opinion:
1. To block any ground move except throwing all you need to do is turtle. The only time you would need to do otherwise is if it was a jumping attack, which are so predictable that they might as well call you on the phone beforehand to tell you they're going to do it. This makes attacks more predictable, as you know after a jumping attack to close the distance that they've going to attack low next.
2. Fast 3D fighting games like Dead or Alive often mix high, mid and low attacks into their combinations, and turtling still leaves you open to mid attacks. It becomes almost impossible to block everything unless you memorise all of the combos.

Yes, you and Femto are right that current 3D fighting games have a different feel to current 2D games, I just wanted him to understand that it's not because it can't be done in 3D or that there's some obstacle in 3D games preventing it, it just hasn't been done yet and it's obvious they don't have much experience using 3D engines or things like in that screenshot I posted earlier (where Ryu's leg had phased through Ken's body) just wouldn't be happening. If Capcom is making the jump permanently to 3D fighting games you can bet that they'll fix all of their mistakes in the next version, if they don't fix it in this version before it's released.


EDIT: LMFAO @ Eldo's pear/apple analogy.

You're right we weren't arguing on the same topic, because we both have different definitions on what makes a fighting game 2D or 3D. See the last paragraph of my previous post. To me a 2D game is sprite-engine based and a 3D game is 3D-engine based, whether or not it's a fighting game or any other genre. Whether the gameplay is of the style of a 2D fighting game or 3D fighting game is irrelevant to whether a game is actually 2D or 3D, they're just called "2D fighting game style" or "3D fighting game style" because up until now the companies making sprite-based fighting games and the companies making 3D-engine based fighting games have had two completely different gameplay goals in mind. The former wants to make a fast-paced game which old-school fighting game fans will be familiar with, while the latter wants to break into new territory with new gameplay styles and give the players something fresh. It's just by chance that we associate these different gameplay styles with "2D" or "3D".

[The Prince]

Hope you guys didn't chase Femto away.......



Who is going to call us all idiots now?




Latest word is someone saw him hitchhiking and getting into a car with Chuck Norris.........
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Aetherfukz]

"player A kicks, if player B is within X range in front of player A they get hit"

Because then there would be the possibility of the kick visually not connecting, while the engine would count it as a hit, which would be really weird?

Edit: apparently I should check if there is another whole page of a thread before hitting that reply button...

[War Machine]

Did everyone forget about Super Smash Brothers Melee? There's your example of 3D characters and 3D environments with 2D gameplay.

Anyway, as others have stated before, SFIV isn't due in japan arcades till late july. That's a whole 5 months to fix any nuisance people experienced in the event where the game was demoed.

[Femto]

More bullets points because you fags type too much:

- My fruit analogy was better than Eldo's.
- lol @ MadDogMike trying to talk about fighting game mechanics (he has never heard of overheads, apparently).
- MadDogMike has been stubborn in bringing up graphics engines and that's exactly what I've been trying to differentiate between this entire time* and that's the point he could never grasp.
- Ryu's leg passing through Ken's body will have little to no bearing on the game itself.
- Option B.
- War Machine still has no idea as to what's being discussed in this thread (and his job interview analogy made no sense).

I could respond to more things but most of you guys are blind faggots (Eldo is the biggest, blindest faggot of them all) so fuck it.

* Examples:

a 3D fighting game is inherently different than a 2D one in both play and feel

that is beside the point I was and have been trying to make this entire time, which is that a 2D fighting game feels differently than a 3D fighting game

Do you understand that there is an inherent difference between a 2D fighting game and a 3D fighting game in gameplay?

Also, that post where I replied with two lines to his 628+, at which point I had pretty much given up on the guy.

[Eldo]

I could respond to more things but most of you guys are blind faggots (Eldo is the biggest, blindest faggot of them all) so fuck it.

Oh yeah? You're ugly.

[Femto]

I could respond to more things but most of you guys are blind faggots (Eldo is the biggest, blindest faggot of them all) so fuck it.

Oh yeah? You're ugly.

Yeah, well, how would you know when you can't see?

How are you even reading this?!

[Eldo]

Yeah, well, how would you know when you can't see?

How are you even reading this?!

This forum supports Braille for the blind. It also has supports sign language for the deaf. What it doesn't support is retards.

[Femto]

What it doesn't support is retards.

That's my cue!

[MadDogMike]

- MadDogMike has been stubborn in bringing up graphics engines and that's exactly what I've been trying to differentiate between this entire time* and that's the point he could never grasp.

a 3D fighting game is inherently different than a 2D one in both play and feel

that is beside the point I was and have been trying to make this entire time, which is that a 2D fighting game feels differently than a 3D fighting game

Do you understand that there is an inherent difference between a 2D fighting game and a 3D fighting game in gameplay?

I understand what you are trying to say, but at the same time I see there were things you said which simply don't make sense. Now that I know you define a fighting game as 2D/3D based on whether the characters are sprites or 3D models, you've just confirmed something: You weren't talking about 2D/3D gameplay at all, you were talking about sprites vs 3D graphics having an effect on gameplay.

The entire argument I was making was to try and explain that regardless of whether the character models are 2D or 3D that should not have an affect on gameplay at all, unless the development team purposefully changes the gameplay. Are you still trying to say that I'm not on the same topic as you now? Sure, my way of trying to provide proof was a bit too technical for you I guess, but now that I know your definition for sure I know that I was addressing the same issue as you.

[Femto]

Sure, my way of trying to provide proof was a bit too technical for you I guess,

Good to see you're as pretentious and condescending as ever.

lol @ "proof"

You've proven nothing.

You're saying that in theory a 2D and a 3D fighter should play exactly the same but it's just never happened.

Well, in theory I can fly up in the air but that's never happened either.

2D fighters and 3D fighters don't feel the same.

I don't know in how many different ways you want me to explain this to you.

I don't know what the exact reason for this is and it's most likely a combination of things but it is undeniable.

So unless you want to go out to Japan and show Ono why he's having trouble getting collisions in Street Fighter IV to feel like those in a 2D game or unless you want to program a 3D fighting game that feels like a 2D one yourself then I think it's safe to say that this discussion has come to an end.

Dividing 12 by 6 doesn't make you a mathematician and programming a pinball game doesn't make you an expert in fighting game engines.

[MadDogMike]

*Sigh*

Stop being a prick. Pretentious and condescending because I said my explanation was too technical? You were the one that called my explanations a bunch of technical jargon and "rhetoric" in the first place, are you changing your mind now? So you actually understood what I was talking about but you just wanted to make fun of me anyway?

Just so you know, the entire reason I went to university was because I wanted to become a game developer. I've read through the entire source code of games like Quake 2 and Half-Life 2 in an attempt to understand more about game development, and I've even made my own personal modifications as well as read through the source code of other people's modifications to understand how it all worked. I've read books about game design, read through many game programming tutorials, read articles and tutorials on the web about the creation of 2D and 3D engines. Fuck you for insulting my knowledge when it's obvious you don't know the first thing about game development yourself.

If you are going to pretend you're king shit because you play more Street Fighter than me or because you have messed with ROM BIOS settings, then I'm done talking to you. Live in your own ignorant world for the rest of your days.

[Femto]

Nice talking to ya.

Feel free to come back to me when you change the world by making a 3D fighting game that feels like a 2D one.

Cheers.

[MadDogMike]

This isn't for Femto, but for everybody reading this thread who is interested in Street Fighter IV. It's an interesting discussion from people who have actually played it.