Berserk chapter: 290

[Rolos]

Yeah, but you still have to take into consideration the fact that Femto/Griffith has repeatedly taken advantage of Gutts to accelerate* the development of his plans. Take as an example Griffith rebirth.
I dont know what kind of trick Idea would have pulled off to make Femto enter the Physical Plane, but Caska/Gutts child sure was a good way to save time.
And the defeat of Ganishka at the hands of Gutts. Zodd could have never wounded The Emperar without the Dragon Slayer.

As the guy before you said, Gutts is outside fate but can be "controled" for a short amount of time.

This is all in its theoretical stages, but still, I think thats the right interpretation of Gutt`s outside of fateness







* what i meant to say was that it made his plans develop faster, not sure if "accelerate" is the right word to use

[Seraph]

i don't think gutts is outside of fate,but the degree of control fate has on him i think is very weak.
even if fate palys a role in getting him to where it want him to be,the out come of the event is unperdictable even to fate itself.(he may not play the good role of the pawn fate had wanted)

[War Machine]

Idea doesn't control fate, he controls causality. The difference that I see would be that there is a way around causality, while fate is inevitable.

[psi29a]

Idea doesn't control fate, he controls causality. The difference that I see would be that there is a way around causality, while fate is inevitable.

We have to be particularly careful with our word choices here as Idea can manipulate people which in turn effects causality. By doing this over many many years and growing ever more powerful and manipulative it is essentially a downward spiral that creates the ever oppressive 'fate'.

Fate is what you make, however in this case the whole deck is stacked against you in the Berserk world.

[Seraph]

causality and fate are not entirely different, matter of fact i say they work hand in hand.

fate is inevitable (as you say war machine),but to get at the end results of fate's plan a series of events must follow to get to event b, event a must do something first.

eg. how would griffith had gotten back the behelith to make the sacrifice if guts didn't had bust him out of prison.
how would guts had known of events that followed if that guy didn't come to godo to make swords for hunting bandits.

event B meet event A and so fate gold was achieve.

[Arcandus]

Idea doesn't control fate, he controls causality. The difference that I see would be that there is a way around causality, while fate is inevitable.

I agree, as Idea itself said, he was made becouse humans wanted him to exist, the feelings of fear, evil, etc. Ideia is somehow dependent on humanity, he can't control them, but while humanity believes on evil, and want it to exist, he will be able to create more evil.

It would be perfect for him if Griffith rules his empire, Idea will gain a lot of power, more and more people will believe on evil, and wish for it, considering that Griffith is very carismatic. However Ideia hasn't choose Guts's(even Griffith's)fate, it will depend on his will and skill if he will die fighting with Griffith or not(who knows if he will die to another apostile hehe).

We have to be particularly careful with our word choices here as Idea can manipulate people which in turn effects causality. By doing this over many many years and growing ever more powerful and manipulative it is essentially a downward spiral that creates the ever oppressive 'fate'.

Fate is what you make, however in this case the whole deck is stacked against you in the Berserk world.

Well... i think that fate is something inevitable, you were born and your fate is that, whatever you do you cannot change that. If you change that is becouse it wasn't your real fate hehe(the one that predicted it did it wrong).

[War Machine]

Idea doesn't control fate, he controls causality. The difference that I see would be that there is a way around causality, while fate is inevitable.

We have to be particularly careful with our word choices here as Idea can manipulate people which in turn effects causality. By doing this over many many years and growing ever more powerful and manipulative it is essentially a downward spiral that creates the ever oppressive 'fate'.

Fate is what you make, however in this case the whole deck is stacked against you in the Berserk world.

The reason why I think that Miura called it causality and not fate is because there might be a way to overcome your "almost fate". Idea will do everything in his power to manipulate people's lives, but causality gives you a choice to go against the flow. A lot of Guts' actions might have been ordained by Idea, but it seems to be Skull Knight who keeps Guts outside of causality. If it was fate, then not even SK could've done anything to save Guts.

[dialdfordesi]

eg. how would griffith had gotten back the behelith to make the sacrifice if guts didn't had bust him out of prison.

This example makes a very interesting point. Guts exists outside Idea's realm but he is still used as a tool for Griffith's destiny. Does that mean that something other than the idea of evil influences people's lives?

[The Prince]

eg. how would griffith had gotten back the behelith to make the sacrifice if guts didn't had bust him out of prison.

This example makes a very interesting point. Guts exists outside Idea's realm but he is still used as a tool for Griffith's destiny. Does that mean that something other than the idea of evil influences people's lives?

God....."the good one".

[Buuhan1]

So uuh...forgive me for asking this but, when is the next chapter suppose to be out? According to the last page of this chapter it was due out in September 28th..what happened?

[Death&Rebirth]

If you mean ch290 it's already out (released in the last week of septemeber).

If you mean ch291, i leave you with Eldo's Words of Wisdom:

EDIT: I know that the next chapter is said to be on the 11th [of November] on the scanlation; THAT IS WRONG. That’s an error on my part when I typed it in. I wasn’t paying much attention, sorry. The correct date is on the 9th [of November].

[psi29a]

eg. how would griffith had gotten back the behelith to make the sacrifice if guts didn't had bust him out of prison.

This example makes a very interesting point. Guts exists outside Idea's realm but he is still used as a tool for Griffith's destiny. Does that mean that something other than the idea of evil influences people's lives?

God....."the good one".

We have been down this road before, and there is no actively participating 'God' other than Idea. The only thing that comes remotely close are the 4 elementals (angels) but they are neutral. In a sense, there is religion but Miura has seen fit not let any God or Gods (aside from Idea of Evil) become active (or even passive) players in the story.

I can't say that Miura chose causality over the word of fate for a particular reason, but since he does it a lot especially when SK is concerned, we have to conclude that Idea of Evil is setting up 'fate' via causality. I hope you guys can follow along, Idea makes it so difficult to overcome causality that the final outcome is inevitable, which appears to the rest of the world as 'fate'.

Guts for some reason is a force unto himself that directly rivals Idea of Evil and has surprised the God Hand and SK both. This is why i'm wishy-washy on the term fate, as Guts has demonstrated that he can preserver and struggle against the single outcome causality setup by Idea. For Guts, it literal comes down to "Fate is what you make".

[hbi2k]

One metaphor I see made a lot (particularly by the Godhand) when it comes to Guts is a fish in a stream: "the fish may leap out of the stream, but it cannot change its course."

The question is, is this actually true? Can Guts change his own destiny in the short term, but still not have any appreciable long-term effect on the larger destiny of mankind? Or is this just a case of the Godhand being their normal arrogant selves and underestimating him?

[Aetherfukz]

If I remember correctly the only chapter where the idea of evil is mentioned by name, is the lost one, aye? Without the lost chapter we wouldn't know that much about the idea and what it does to fate and causality. Without the lost chapter the whole talk between Griff and Idea doesn't happen and the only thing he thinks when he sees the "heart" floating there is "god?".
Or is the whole idea thing mentioned elsewhere too? Can't remember any portion besides the lost chapter. And so, if Miura personally didn't want the chapter to be reprintet, maybe he can/will change something about the whole theory then?

[psi29a]

There are two parts, God of the Abyss (1) and God of the Abyss (2), part 2 is the lost chapter which you can either accept or ignore as cannon, however 'Idea of Evil' is still in the former, as the floating/beating heart in the vortex that is part of official volumes.

In 1996, Young Animal released Episode 83 of Berserk. It contained the most controversial subject matter in the series, a conversation between Griffith and the god of Berserk, The Idea of Evil. It was removed from the collected manga (1997) by Miura upon his request. The reason he gave for its removal is that it said too much, too early in the series. You can find a text translation of the episode here.

[The Herald]

The story of Berserk is mostly that of human design. Even the apostles were once human. The only things that weren't originally human were sprites like the Elves and wierd little spirits that were created through the dissent of human ghosts. Like that thing with a huge nose and only legs. The idea of God has only been revealed through the religious characters and the chapter about Griffith right before he transformed into Femto. Though, considering that all of these events were inherantly evil, especial with Mozgus torturing in the name of said God, the same idea of a just and merciful God just doens't seem to play through. The Behelits themselves are probably alive and are at the beck and call of either the great consciousness of evil that is at the bottom of the abyss, or the God Hand themselves. My own theory is that all of these things are completely evil and are a means of the great evil to deter peoples of the Berserk world away from their own beliefs of an even greater creator. If the peoples of Berserk believe that the end all and be all is the great evil of the abyss that eats humans to gain power, they would be even easier to control and consume. The most basic fact, however, is that if they were the most powerful and the end all and be all then they wouldn't need to consume humans or anything else to have the power that they strive for.

[Istvan]

My own theory is that all of these things are completely evil and are a means of the great evil to deter peoples of the Berserk world away from their own beliefs of an even greater creator. If the peoples of Berserk believe that the end all and be all is the great evil of the abyss that eats humans to gain power, they would be even easier to control and consume. The most basic fact, however, is that if they were the most powerful and the end all and be all then they wouldn't need to consume humans or anything else to have the power that they strive for.

Idea wasn't created by people believing in some evil god. Idea was created (as it explicitly states in the lost chapter) because people wanted a reason for why bad things happen. It's like the classical case of the person who's wife dies and he cries out to the sky asking God why he let this happen. People didn't want to believe that bad things just happen randomly, for no reason. They wanted a reason, a purpose for all of the nasty things that occur. Idea was created to be that reason. Idea isn't trying to "become more powerful" or get "more people to believe in itself". It's already plenty powerful (look at the descriptions of everything it did to create Griffith) and people already have sufficient belief in it. And if it became more powerful, it wouldn't stop manipulating/consuming the world/humanity. Causing suffering for humans (being the reason for all suffering, everywhere) is Idea's purpose, it's function. It exists to cause suffering, to give suffering meaning/reason, and that is all.

[psi29a]

Istvan speaks truth, listen to him.

[The Herald]

See, this is why I keep getting C's on my english essays. I agree with Istvan in that that's the first part of how the things like the godhand were created. I was just trying to explain, at least the way I saw it, how the things of the godhand keep gaining power. Yes, they were created by people wanting to know why bad things happened, but the reason they gain power, instead of keep it, is that they create the strife, forcing the people to believe in them. It's a cycle of evil and sadness. Guts himself really is a godsend (ignore the pun) because he sees that these supposed demons for what they really are and is rebelling against a world that has raised them to their current state. By the end, Guts will change the world just because he lived.

[Arcandus]

My own theory is that all of these things are completely evil and are a means of the great evil to deter peoples of the Berserk world away from their own beliefs of an even greater creator. If the peoples of Berserk believe that the end all and be all is the great evil of the abyss that eats humans to gain power, they would be even easier to control and consume. The most basic fact, however, is that if they were the most powerful and the end all and be all then they wouldn't need to consume humans or anything else to have the power that they strive for.

Idea wasn't created by people believing in some evil god. Idea was created (as it explicitly states in the lost chapter) because people wanted a reason for why bad things happen. It's like the classical case of the person who's wife dies and he cries out to the sky asking God why he let this happen. People didn't want to believe that bad things just happen randomly, for no reason. They wanted a reason, a purpose for all of the nasty things that occur. Idea was created to be that reason. Idea isn't trying to "become more powerful" or get "more people to believe in itself". It's already plenty powerful (look at the descriptions of everything it did to create Griffith) and people already have sufficient belief in it. And if it became more powerful, it wouldn't stop manipulating/consuming the world/humanity. Causing suffering for humans (being the reason for all suffering, everywhere) is Idea's purpose, it's function. It exists to cause suffering, to give suffering meaning/reason, and that is all.

Cool. You changed my point of view.

[Rolos]

*Sarcasm ON*
Arcandus, your post made me realize what the objective of my existence is.

It is to post short useless commentaries about what other people said. Why write (and post) your own theory, thus contributing to the forum, if you can just post:

Cool. i like it.

*Sarcasm OFF*

just kidding Arcandus, dont be offended.

Itsvan, I agree with you to a certain extent.
We all know that since the moment Femto entered the physical world, the ideal world (evil idea/world) and the physical world have begun to fuse, making it easier for Idea s agents to spread chaos, pain, sadness and fear throughout the world.
Given that his purpose is to be the reason of evil in the world, trying to be as close as posible of being the direct cause of evil deeds is certainly what Idea would feel impelled to do, but if the ideal and the physical world merge, everyone is probably gonna die, excepting of course, idea.
But if everyone dies, then there would be no need for a reason for evil. That would strip Idea of his purpose, he would, well......stop existing.

So, what drives idea to become one with our world? He (she if you prefer it like that) wants to die?

[The Prince]

My own theory is that all of these things are completely evil and are a means of the great evil to deter peoples of the Berserk world away from their own beliefs of an even greater creator. If the peoples of Berserk believe that the end all and be all is the great evil of the abyss that eats humans to gain power, they would be even easier to control and consume. The most basic fact, however, is that if they were the most powerful and the end all and be all then they wouldn't need to consume humans or anything else to have the power that they strive for.

Idea wasn't created by people believing in some evil god. Idea was created (as it explicitly states in the lost chapter) because people wanted a reason for why bad things happen. It's like the classical case of the person who's wife dies and he cries out to the sky asking God why he let this happen. People didn't want to believe that bad things just happen randomly, for no reason. They wanted a reason, a purpose for all of the nasty things that occur. Idea was created to be that reason. Idea isn't trying to "become more powerful" or get "more people to believe in itself". It's already plenty powerful (look at the descriptions of everything it did to create Griffith) and people already have sufficient belief in it. And if it became more powerful, it wouldn't stop manipulating/consuming the world/humanity. Causing suffering for humans (being the reason for all suffering, everywhere) is Idea's purpose, it's function. It exists to cause suffering, to give suffering meaning/reason, and that is all.

My belief is that with story taking place at such a dark point in human history, overcome by warfare and persecution, has unleashed an entity like the Idea, thus condemning humanity to a vicious cycle of death and destruction. BUT...Its important to consider that the Idea, can't be the true reason for evil, as evil clearly existed before it. Therefore I have trouble believing that the Idea is in fact the all powerful God, mainly because it is something created by man....and not vice versa.

Although I agree with some of your interpretation, it raises some questions.

According to your intepretation of Miura's cannon, than humans by nature are implicitly evil. Something I don't necessarily agree with, as although Berserk is a dark story, we have seen many aspects of human nature that is "good".

What about the "good-side" of human nature, why isn't this not represented in a positive power? Along with all the other higher powers, people would come to associate with the world around them....such as a creator, etc.? I doubt Miura would be so hasty in overlooking this premise, by having the Idea of evil the true God. Who knows, maybe the real reason Miura pulled that chapter was because that shit just doesn't add up?

And a lot of our understanding of the Berserk universe is solely centered upon a small region of the world.....Midland and its surrounding territiories. Are we to assume the God-hand oversee the "goings on" in other parts of the world as well?

Where its important to consider there are regions, such as Puck's homeland that humans also inhabit, where it appears the "good" in people may win out. Along with every where else.....

I feel we may learn there is more to Miura's universe, which may be revealed more to the reader, once Guts' party reaches their present destination.

[Rolos]

Thats never going to happen. Miura is propably going to be stabbed while he sleeps by some psichotic fan or something like that.
The truth is, we will never see Elfheim.


What we have to do is to pray for more berserk...... ..............and then pray some more........ and finally, we visit our neuro-surgeon so we dont die from internal brain bleeding.

Pd: if what i said comes true, i will personaly hunt down and torture to death the responsible "fan".

[Istvan]

I was just trying to explain, at least the way I saw it, how the things of the godhand keep gaining power. Yes, they were created by people wanting to know why bad things happened, but the reason they gain power, instead of keep it, is that they create the strife, forcing the people to believe in them.

I just don't see this. Yes, they are spreading strife/pain/suffering, but there's not a corresponding increase in belief. Outside the occasional witch (or the like) no one knows/believes that Idea exists, and the number who do know isn't increasing. They don't have to spread belief in themselves, just agony.

Itsvan, I agree with you to a certain extent.
We all know that since the moment Femto entered the physical world, the ideal world (evil idea/world) and the physical world have begun to fuse, making it easier for Idea s agents to spread chaos, pain, sadness and fear throughout the world.
Given that his purpose is to be the reason of evil in the world, trying to be as close as posible of being the direct cause of evil deeds is certainly what Idea would feel impelled to do, but if the ideal and the physical world merge, everyone is probably gonna die, excepting of course, idea.
But if everyone dies, then there would be no need for a reason for evil. That would strip Idea of his purpose, he would, well......stop existing.

So, what drives idea to become one with our world? He (she if you prefer it like that) wants to die?

Um, nowhere is it said that Idea is fusing with the real world. Rather, the astral world is coming closer to our world. There are many levels to the astral plane, and Idea is deep in the heart of it, at the heart of the vortex. It's doubtful that the fusion is going to go so far as to bring that into the real world. Possibly it will bring it closer, so Idea can exert an even greater influence (not that Idea seems to need any such thing, but whatever) but probably not anything more than that.

BUT...Its important to consider that the Idea, can't be the true reason for evil, as evil clearly existed before it. Therefore I have trouble believing that the Idea is in fact the all powerful God, mainly because it is something created by man....and not vice versa.

Idea is not, of course, the reason for all evil throughout all of time. It was created by humans to give a purpose to suffering, however. Now (at the time of the story) if something horrible happens to anyone, anywhere, the reason for that event is Idea. It is the reason for every bad thing that happens to every person. It may not technically be all powerful, but it's plenty close enough. It's certainly the closest thing we've seen in the story so far.

According to your intepretation of Miura's cannon, than humans by nature are implicitly evil. Something I don't necessarily agree with, as although Berserk is a dark story, we have seen many aspects of human nature that is "good".

No, not at all. The reason that Idea came into existence was not that humans are inherently evil, and the reason there's no countering power (i.e. an Idea of Good) isn't because humans have no positive feelings/beliefs. There's no countering Idea of Good, because when something wonderful happens to a person, they don't scream at the sky, asking God why this happened. When things are going well, people tend to except it as their due, or as natural. It's only when things are bad that people question what they (or their loved ones) ever did to deserve this, and want to know why it's happening. That passionate desire for there to be some reason for the terrible stuff, that it not just be random chance, is what gave rise to Idea. It has nothing to do with humans relative moral character, or lack thereof.

And a lot of our understanding of the Berserk universe is solely centered upon a small region of the world.....Midland and its surrounding territiories. Are we to assume the God-hand oversee the "goings on" in other parts of the world as well?

Possible, but doubtful. We know, for example, that they also influence the land of the Kushans, and everything they've conquered. Why should other areas be outside their control? Certainly nothing in the story so far would indicate this to be the case.

[The Prince]

No, not at all. The reason that Idea came into existence was not that humans are inherently evil, and the reason there's no countering power (i.e. an Idea of Good) isn't because humans have no positive feelings/beliefs. There's no countering Idea of Good, because when something wonderful happens to a person, they don't scream at the sky, asking God why this happened. When things are going well, people tend to except it as their due, or as natural. It's only when things are bad that people question what they (or their loved ones) ever did to deserve this, and want to know why it's happening. That passionate desire for there to be some reason for the terrible stuff, that it not just be random chance, is what gave rise to Idea. It has nothing to do with humans relative moral character, or lack thereof.

I appreciate the well reasoned, thought-out response from you, as always.

But at least from my perspective and understanding, most religions of the world, have always paid careful attention to pay homage to their "deity's" for gifts and fortunes bestowed upon them.